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Message 41046 - Posted: 28 Oct 2004, 22:26:39 UTC - in response to Message 41023.

>
>
> It is sooooooooo true.
> Bush as opened a pendor's box and god knows how it will end. Invasion
> of Irak was the biggest mistake in the USA history.

Actually the biggest mistake that america made in my opinion was liberating france from German occupation in WW II

>I would guess that there is now 10 times more muslim fanatics willing to stikes >US then ever before.

Funny how there hasn't been a single terrorist attack on American soil since the start of this campaign.

> Now since Bush was convince it was a good idea, and turned his
> back to the international community, pissed all his allies,

Correction you and your country men turned your back on America and to add insult to injury you activily went against the United States in the United Nations security counsel. Thanks....friend....

> and badly hurts USA reputation and credibility,

This is not a popularity contest. What happenend on 9/11 was naked agression not unlike Pearl Harbor or Hitlers invasion of Poland. You so quickly forget the blood shed by all sides in order to keep Europe free from opression. Something your country is not willing to do for the innocent people of Iraq. Perhaps we should have given diplomacy more of a chance at sucess in WW II? Rather then going in and kicking Hirohito's and Hitlers ass?

>Who will stand with the USa when the next attack comes ?

Those that believe in something greater then themselves and their antiquated culture.

> Because there will be others for sure.

And those that perpetrate hostilities against the United States will reap the whirlwind.

> How sad it is that innocent peoples in the US, madrid, Irak, Bali, etc
> suffers from fanatics on all sides...

Yep and you had your chance to do something about it but you chose to cast a blind eye and betray one of your oldest and most powerful friends becasue you can't get over your superiority complex and the fact that you have little to no influence on world events.

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Message 41062 - Posted: 28 Oct 2004, 23:40:15 UTC - in response to Message 41046.

Bravo Smartpatrol!

I would add that it is rather racist to believe that Muslims (Sunni, Shia, Kurds, whatever) are incapable of democracy. If democracy is not achieved in Iraq, it could be just as easily laid at the doorstep of the French, Germans and other UN countries who have tacitly supported the insurgents in Iraq.

And while we're on the subject of racism, the blame for all the trouble in the Middle East has been related back to US support of Israel, in this very thread. I'm not Jewish, but this sounds very much like anti-semitism and it offends me. Anyone who knows the history of the region will be aware that since it's inception, Israel has been blatently attacked by it's neighbors who have plainly stated that their goal is to eradicate the Jewish state. I am proud of US support for Israel, and it was that support which gave the US leverage to keep Israel out of both Gulf wars, preventing a wider racial divide in the area.
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Message 41098 - Posted: 29 Oct 2004, 2:00:24 UTC - in response to Message 41046.
Last modified: 29 Oct 2004, 2:22:30 UTC

> >
> >
> > It is sooooooooo true.
> > Bush as opened a pendor's box and god knows how it will end. Invasion
> > of Irak was the biggest mistake in the USA history.
>
> Actually the biggest mistake that america made in my opinion was liberating
> france from German occupation in WW II

Same for France. their biggest mistake has been to fight on your side against the british.
You would still be a british colony today. lol hahahaha. Now if the US has been able to
liberate "Europe" is because of the russian front on the east. every hitorician will confirm
that. Now to show how small minded you are look at my profile...

> >I would guess that there is now 10 times more muslim fanatics willing to
> stikes >US then ever before.

> Funny how there hasn't been a single terrorist attack on American soil since
> the start of this campaign.

True they are striking in other country for now

> > Now since Bush was convince it was a good idea, and turned his
> > back to the international community, pissed all his allies,

> Correction you and your country men turned your back on America and to
> add insult to injury you activily went against the United States in the United
> Nations security counsel. Thanks....friend....

Well, in the security concil you need 9 votes out of 10. there was only 4 countries
backing the US. If France "turned his back on USA" it was because the bush war on
Irak wasn't justify. Facts show today that the French were rights. where are the WMD
powell showded the coucil on false fact and satellite pictures ? Where are the links
to 9/11 ? France always said it would vote no, it didn't have to use his veto, since only 4
countries were in favor of it. Now open your eyes, stop thinking the French is the cause of your
problem, Millions of peoples in all country were marching the streets to say no to that war.
some polls showed that more then 80% of the world were against that invasion.
Now if you really believe the Irakis are better of now, take a look at this
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3962969.stm

> > and badly hurts USA reputation and credibility,
>
> This is not a popularity contest. What happenend on 9/11 was naked agression
> not unlike Pearl Harbor or Hitlers invasion of Poland. You so quickly forget
> the blood shed by all sides in order to keep Europe free from opression.

God you make me so laugh ! Every american that basicaly has no education and
has nothing to say always come with that "we save you durring WWII" The people
of Europe are very happy for that and they make remeberence of it every year. But
this was 60 years ago. I and probably you weren't there so don't even mention it.

> Something your country is not willing to do for the innocent people of Iraq.
> Perhaps we should have given diplomacy more of a chance at sucess in WW II?
> Rather then going in and kicking Hirohito's and Hitlers ass?

The country you are talking about is giving to times more aids to foreign countries
then the US. That is a fact and I will post the UN link latter when I am on my other computer
(favorites) Now for the diplomacy stupidity you've just said, please compare what is
campairable.


> >Who will stand with the USa when the next attack comes ?
>
> Those that believe in something greater then themselves and their antiquated
> culture.

Hahahahahaha you are a very funny person. are you talking about the US ?
Look at the so called coalition again. the country that are still in won't be for
very long, Spain left, south korea, britain will do at the next election. You guys
wanted to go alone because you are sooooo strong then finish the job alone.
The problem in Irak now is an American problem. You wanted it you got it.

> > Because there will be others for sure.
>
> And those that perpetrate hostilities against the United States will reap the
> whirlwind.

You see terrorism is not something you fight with guns. you see the small childrens
in Irak that lost their parents because of intense us bombing, well you can put
them already in the terrorist list. Kill one you make him a martyr and two will follow.

> > How sad it is that innocent peoples in the US, madrid, Irak, Bali, etc
> > suffers from fanatics on all sides...
>
> Yep and you had your chance to do something about it but you chose to cast a
> blind eye and betray one of your oldest and most powerful friends becasue you
> can't get over your superiority complex and the fact that you have little to
> no influence on world events.

Then why bother if France is in the coalition then ? Has for having no influance on world
events, well You wish you country had the same world respect as France has. Fact, France
is currently the 3rd military power, the only country after US and Russia that can lauch a
nuclear attack from land, sea, and air. It is the only country that had the balls to publicaly
opposed to bush, helping others, like Canada, where I am from anyway. In all the security
council history only one country has been applauds, it was France when they replied to
the old Europe comment and the powell bullshit speech.
Ha the French, You guys can call your chips freedom fries, put T-shirt saying Irak now
France after, throw your bottle of french wine on the streets, it won't change anything.

Now go and vote for your Moron president, you both have the same level of education
and you make a good pair.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Message 41100 - Posted: 29 Oct 2004, 2:02:24 UTC

Soaring Fuel Costs Undermining Airlines

And how many billion$ of dollar$ did it cost the US taxpayers when the government bailed out the airlines after 9/11?

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Message 41102 - Posted: 29 Oct 2004, 2:13:29 UTC - in response to Message 41062.
Last modified: 29 Oct 2004, 3:00:48 UTC

> Bravo Smartpatrol!
>
> I would add that it is rather racist to believe that Muslims (Sunni, Shia,
> Kurds, whatever) are incapable of democracy. If democracy is not achieved in
> Iraq, it could be just as easily laid at the doorstep of the French, Germans
> and other UN countries who have tacitly supported the insurgents in Iraq.

Who said they were incapable of democracy ? Democracy has to come from the inside not from an invaders. Now talking about democracy you guys better make it work in your own country first. You look very funny with your crapy voting machine, balots lost in the mail (exactly where the democrats had 69% in 2000) etc. A new one !!! Did you ear that germans friend ? We are supporting the insurgents !!! Common Tom, you use to be better then that !

> And while we're on the subject of racism, the blame for all the trouble in the
> Middle East has been related back to US support of Israel, in this very
> thread. I'm not Jewish, but this sounds very much like anti-semitism and it
> offends me. Anyone who knows the history of the region will be aware that
> since it's inception, Israel has been blatently attacked by it's neighbors who
> have plainly stated that their goal is to eradicate the Jewish state. I am
> proud of US support for Israel, and it was that support which gave the US
> leverage to keep Israel out of both Gulf wars, preventing a wider racial
> divide in the area.

They have been attacked by their neighbors because they took their lands.
I am not antisemit, but I am not anti palestinians. Its funny how palestinians
could be treated like animal but don't touch the jews and say anything wrong
about Israels policies and colony.

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Message 41110 - Posted: 29 Oct 2004, 3:08:18 UTC - in response to Message 41102.

> How said they were incapable of democracy ? Democracy has to come from the
> inside
> not from an invaders. Now talking about democracy you guys better make it

Steven Macy said it in post #41020.

> work
> in your own vountry first. You look very funny with your crapy voting
> machine,
> blobs lost in the mail (exactly where the democrats had 69% in 2000) etc.
> A new one !!! Dis you ear that germans friend ? We are supporting the
> insurgents !!!
> Common Tom, you use to be better then that !
>

Marc, I said "tacitly supported" the insurgents. This means that by remaining silent as to their tactics and atrocities, they have the equivalant of your support. Democracy might come from the inside, but with the iron grip Saddam had on his country and the military, how would it have happened? If you think the Iraqis could have defied Saddam and his army, you must believe in fairies. So, why are you changing the subject--we are discussing democracy in Iraq, so don't you worry your leftist brain about America's democratic process, which is just as corrupt for the Democrats as the Republicans, and it's none of your concern how we've been electing our leaders for 200 years.

> They have been attacked by their neighbors because they took their lands.
> Am am not antisemit, but I am not anti palestinians. Its funny how
> palestinians
> could be treated like animal but don't touch the jews and say anything wrong
> about Israels policies and colony.
>

Whose lands these are is the subject of a 2,500 year dispute (maybe longer); I'm glad you have now settled it by decreeing that the land belongs to the Arabs. If you look at the History of Israel and it's neighbors, the UN (your favorite international body) assigned territory to both the Palestinians and the Israelis. Israel's Arab neighbors attacked, while clearly stating that their aim was to destroy the Jewish state. Every time their neighbors attacked, Israel repelled their armies and advanced deeper into neighboring countries. These occupied territories remain in Israel's hands as a military buffer, except for the Sinai, which was returned to Egypt after a peace treaty was signed. No one else has agreed to abandon their military stance toward Israel, thus other lands have not been returned. Israel has the same right to defend itself that France does, but unlike France, the Israelis are good at it. So, once again, rather than address my point (that some postings in this thread sound anti-semitic), you change the subject to mistreatment of Palistinians--a completely different point. Please respond to my argument rather than bringing up new complaints. "Common [Marc], you use to be better then that !"

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Message 41119 - Posted: 29 Oct 2004, 3:52:22 UTC - in response to Message 41110.
Last modified: 29 Oct 2004, 16:02:14 UTC

*****but unlike France, the Israelis are good at it.*****



Yea you are right. Israel do defend themself very well. Especialy
when you fight kids throwing rocks with a tank.....Tanks that comes
from US funds aid. Now please do me a favor and read this

About France you must refer to the Great and second war ? Well in 1939
NO COUNTRY would have stoped the Nazi army. Europe as been very lucky to
have The british on an island. That is where the the effort of stopping
hitler has started. The same for US and Canada, It's a chance that there
was an ocean in between....

Now take some time (it might take some time though) to read the history of
France. You will see that they have been in the middle of all conflict in
Europe since 1200 years. They are still there today, and it is currently
the most powerfull military country in Europe.

Military Expenditure Total 2002

Rank Country Military expenditures - dollar figure

1 United States $ 276,700,000,000
2 China $ 55,910,000,000
3 France $ 46,500,000,000
4 Japan $ 39,520,000,000
5 Germany $ 38,800,000,000
6 United Kingdom $ 31,700,000,000
7 Italy $ 20,200,000,000
8 Saudi Arabia $ 18,300,000,000
9 Brazil $ 13,408,000,000

Since you seem to be very interrested (obssesed) by France you might
also read this


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Message 41122 - Posted: 29 Oct 2004, 4:03:14 UTC - in response to Message 41119.
Last modified: 29 Oct 2004, 4:04:07 UTC

> About France you must refer to the Great and second war ? Well in 1939
> NO COUNTRY would have stoped the Nazi army. Europe as been very lucky to
> have The british on an island. That is where the the effort of stopping
> hitler has started. The same for US and Canada, It's a chance that there
> was an ocean in between....
>
Sorry Marc, I was trying to be clever, but I forgot you have dual Canadian/French citizenship. I like Canada so much, that's how I think of you. But I don't particulary hate the French, I'm just angry they supported Saddam so long during the "Oil for Food" program, then opposed removing Saddam--that smelled like a strong conflict of interest.

But your point that no country could have stopped Hitler is well taken. You must agree with me then that the Iraqi people could not have deposed Saddam's tanks, planes, 4th largest Army in the world and threatened use of WDM (that he always inferred he had and never allowed confirmation).
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Message 41123 - Posted: 29 Oct 2004, 4:05:43 UTC

FBI Investigating Halliburton Contracts

About time !!! lol Even Michael Moores was referring to that in his movie.
"It's gona be good for the business, bad for the people..."

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Message 41124 - Posted: 29 Oct 2004, 4:10:41 UTC - in response to Message 41119.


Where does GWB get the notion that his 'crusade' can succeed when for so many centuries these muslim lands have embraced the authority of their religious leaders. It seems to me no amount of democratizing can undermine the patriotism that in these lands is a religious issue based on the authority granted to the mullas through belief in the Qoran. GWBs crusade is not such a good idea....cc

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Message 41127 - Posted: 29 Oct 2004, 4:20:24 UTC - in response to Message 41123.


> About time !!! lol Even Michael Moores was referring to that in his movie.
> "It's gona be good for the business, bad for the people..."
>
I wonder if anythings gonna happen to Halliburton. California cant even get the FERC to force ENRON and the other utilities to refund the billion$ they stole from us.

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Message 41128 - Posted: 29 Oct 2004, 4:42:43 UTC - in response to Message 41122.
Last modified: 29 Oct 2004, 4:44:29 UTC

> > About France you must refer to the Great and second war ? Well in 1939
> > NO COUNTRY would have stoped the Nazi army. Europe as been very lucky to
> > have The british on an island. That is where the the effort of stopping
> > hitler has started. The same for US and Canada, It's a chance that there
> > was an ocean in between....
> >
> Sorry Marc, I was trying to be clever, but I forgot you have dual
> Canadian/French citizenship. I like Canada so much, that's how I think of
> you. But I don't particulary hate the French, I'm just angry they supported
> Saddam so long during the "Oil for Food" program, then opposed removing
> Saddam--that smelled like a strong conflict of interest.

Fight against wood, drug prescription, etc aside, Canada and US are the
stongest allied ever. No other country in the world has a greater economic
exchange then Our countries. Canada is an example of democracy and a very
peacefull country. Now you probably know that Canada also strongly opposed
to the war in Irak ? Canada's war effort during the great and the second
world war was greater then the US per capita. You can't consider Canada as
a corrupt country that opposed to this war for conflict of interrest like
France. Why did Canada opposed to that war ? Could it be because it was just
a very bad idea, for false reasons ? Could it be that the reasons for
invading Irak where wrong. It's funny now everybody says it's a good thing
that Sadam is not in power anymore, but did you forget that the reasons was
for WMD ? Would the american peoples had approved this war if the government
had said the truth ? What really piss me off in this is that your government
uses the 9/11 attacked, brainwhashed the american with terrorist and WMD
in order to do what they wanted to. Invade Irak. Period. The american economy
is largely base on war. Since the cold war is over it needs new enemy to make
the machine turn. And how funny it is that all Bush team has either oil or
military interrest ? You see, we might never know the real reasons behind
France opposition to that war, but we do know what were the reasons for the US
to start it. It was not for WMD, It was not for removing a dictator, it was not
for rebuilding that country or any other bullshit like that. It was for
BUSINESS !!! And at least now France can't be blame for having the blood of
tens of thousands innocent peoples on their hands. Wich one is to blame ?
The one that illigaly invade a sovereign country that poses no threats for his
own interrest, and killing god knows how many innocent in the process. Or a
country that opposed for "maybe" conflict of interrest but that doesn't killed
anyone in the process ?

Another thing wich really annoyes me is the fact that WE have helped Sadam
for many years. Nobody ever complains he was a dictator when he was fighting
the evil Iran ! How many WMD did the US, France, Russia has given to him ?
Chimical Ahli had uses French fighter jets and Germans toxic gas to kill
5000 Irakis. Where was the so good American intention then ? Where were
the world liberators ?

You can say whatever you want Tom. It wont change my mind and the mind of
a very vast majority of the world population that in this story, The US
were wrong and the one to be blamed, not France.


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Message 41144 - Posted: 29 Oct 2004, 5:50:10 UTC - in response to Message 41128.
Last modified: 29 Oct 2004, 5:55:28 UTC

> Fight against wood, drug prescription, etc aside, Canada and US are the
> stongest allied ever. No other country in the world has a greater economic
> exchange then Our countries. Canada is an example of democracy and a very
> peacefull country. Now you probably know that Canada also strongly opposed
> to the war in Irak ? Canada's war effort during the great and the second
> world war was greater then the US per capita. You can't consider Canada as
> a corrupt country that opposed to this war for conflict of interrest like
> France. Why did Canada opposed to that war ? Could it be because it was just
> a very bad idea, for false reasons ? Could it be that the reasons for
> invading Irak where wrong. It's funny now everybody says it's a good thing
> that Sadam is not in power anymore, but did you forget that the reasons was
> for WMD ? Would the american peoples had approved this war if the government
> had said the truth ? What really piss me off in this is that your government
> uses the 9/11 attacked, brainwhashed the american with terrorist and WMD
> in order to do what they wanted to. Invade Irak. Period. The american economy
> is largely base on war. Since the cold war is over it needs new enemy to make
> the machine turn. And how funny it is that all Bush team has either oil or
> military interrest ? You see, we might never know the real reasons behind
> France opposition to that war, but we do know what were the reasons for the
> US
> to start it. It was not for WMD, It was not for removing a dictator, it was
> not
> for rebuilding that country or any other bullshit like that. It was for
> BUSINESS !!! And at least now France can't be blame for having the blood of
> tens of thousands innocent peoples on their hands. Wich one is to blame ?
> The one that illigaly invade a sovereign country that poses no threats for
> his
> own interrest, and killing god knows how many innocent in the process. Or a
> country that opposed for "maybe" conflict of interrest but that doesn't
> killed
> anyone in the process ?
>
> Another thing wich really annoyes me is the fact that WE have helped Sadam
> for many years. Nobody ever complains he was a dictator when he was fighting
> the evil Iran ! How many WMD did the US, France, Russia has given to him ?
> Chimical Ahli had uses French fighter jets and Germans toxic gas to kill
> 5000 Irakis. Where was the so good American intention then ? Where were
> the world liberators ?
>
> You can say whatever you want Tom. It wont change my mind and the mind of
> a very vast majority of the world population that in this story, The US
> were wrong and the one to be blamed, not France.
>

Marc, I like Canada. I'm not being funny, I really like Canada. I know they also opposed the war in Iraq, but they don't have the "dirty hands" that France and Germany have. In Canada's case, they opposed the war on principle, and I respect that. There are many in American who oppose the war on principle, and while I feel otherwise, I respect them also. What I do not respect is anyone who has taken a position on the war based on a personal dislike for George Bush. I have said in other posts that many people hate Bush (Michael Moore, Neo Amsterdam, Carl Cuseo) and that seems to be the real reason they oppose him and the war and even America. I'm not sure about your reasons, but if you fail to look at the war logically and without passion, but only in the light of your feelings for George Bush, then you are wrong to do that, and your conclusion is suspect.

I never thought I could change you mind, or anyone else's mind. I thought this thread was about giving one's own political views. For myself, an opinion has no weight if it is not backed up with relevant facts and logical analysis. (Not name-calling and insults.)
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Message 41179 - Posted: 29 Oct 2004, 11:54:50 UTC - in response to Message 41171.

I hate making back to back posts, but I have to say this: It doesn't matter who wins the election if the People do not make their Governance their cause. The price of freedom is eternal vigilance, and once those in power are allowed to do whatever they wish, the power will no longer rest in the hands and conscience of Man.

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Message 41198 - Posted: 29 Oct 2004, 13:16:25 UTC - in response to Message 41179.
Last modified: 29 Oct 2004, 13:17:16 UTC

>.....people hate Bush (Michael Moore, Neo Amsterdam, Carl Cuseo) ....

Why would you infer from my comment that I hate anybody?

It's like the cartoon of the little family standing out front of their burned down house- captioned with momma telling crying daughter:

No, No Emily- we dont hate YOU- it's the horrible thing you've done that we hate.

I do not hate GWB- but his actions turn my stomach I hate THAT....cc

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Message 41199 - Posted: 29 Oct 2004, 13:36:59 UTC - in response to Message 41144.
Last modified: 29 Oct 2004, 13:39:57 UTC

> Marc, I like Canada. I'm not being funny, I really like Canada. I know they
> also opposed the war in Iraq, but they don't have the "dirty hands" that
> France and Germany have. In Canada's case, they opposed the war on principle,
> and I respect that. There are many in American who oppose the war on
> principle, and while I feel otherwise, I respect them also. What I do not
> respect is anyone who has taken a position on the war based on a personal
> dislike for George Bush. I have said in other posts that many people hate
> Bush (Michael Moore, Neo Amsterdam, Carl Cuseo) and that seems to be the real
> reason they oppose him and the war and even America. I'm not sure about your
> reasons, but if you fail to look at the war logically and without passion, but
> only in the light of your feelings for George Bush, then you are wrong to do
> that, and your conclusion is suspect.

I was ans still is against this war for principle, and I am not sure that it
is different for the French and the German. Appart from the fact that he has
cheated the 2000 results, the world knew little about Bush before 9/11 attacks.
What made the world, and I really mean the hole wide world to hate bush was is
lies and justification to attack Irak and rush into that war at any price and
his arrogant policy towards those who opposed to this invasion. I am not
oppose to this war because it's GWB but because it is wrong. I would still be
oppose to it if the president have been Clinton (My favorite of all).

Talking about Clinton, I find it is very Ironic that the politician and the
public attacked him because he lied in the Monica story. That didn't hurt
anyone, it was his private life, etc. But bush lies cost Billions of dollars,
life of youg soldiers, and innocent Irakis. Now those who wants to tell the
truth about bush are called unpatriotic. It looks from abroad that the
republican has much more politacal power in the US. It is because of lobby ?
I don't know, but it surely look stupid when comparing Clinton's lies with
those of Bush.

> I never thought I could change you mind, or anyone else's mind. I thought
> this thread was about giving one's own political views. For myself, an
> opinion has no weight if it is not backed up with relevant facts and logical
> analysis. (Not name-calling and insults.)

I know you didn't want to change my mind. It was said in a French way of saying
things. When translated it doesn't sound the same. Same misunderstanding for
Canada, I knew you were not jokking about the fact that you like Canada.
Language barrier again...

Friendly
Marc

EDIT Did you read the link I have posted earlier about american aid to Israel ?

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Profile Darth Dogbytes™
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Message 41200 - Posted: 29 Oct 2004, 13:39:52 UTC
Last modified: 29 Oct 2004, 13:45:49 UTC

Just a thought... President Harry S. Truman had a plaque on his desk that said, "The buck stops here." Although President George W. Bush doesn't have one, but if he did it would read, "The buck passes here." Just like a captain of a naval vessel, the President of the United States is responsible for everything that happens on his watch. It says alot about his personality.
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Message 41220 - Posted: 29 Oct 2004, 15:39:02 UTC
Last modified: 29 Oct 2004, 15:42:25 UTC

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Message 41240 - Posted: 29 Oct 2004, 17:27:07 UTC - in response to Message 41200.

...President Harry S. Truman had a plaque on his desk that said, "The buck stops here."

You haven't read this month's MAD Magazine, have you (#447)? From "How George W. Bush 'Stacks Up' Against the Other 42 U.S. Presidents"...

"Bush's sign reads 'Ask Rumsfeld or Cheney'"

"Even with conclusive spy-satellite photos showing Soviet nuclear weapons being moved into Cuba, Kennedy was able to resist plunging America into war."

I'll have to stop here, or else I might be accused of having a sense of humor.

FTR: He's ranked better than 19 previous presidents, and worse than 22.

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Message 41257 - Posted: 29 Oct 2004, 18:18:03 UTC

Bush administration uses "Tax Man" to punish critics.
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