On the Origins of the Yahweh Cult
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Matt Giwer  Send message Joined: 21 May 00 Posts: 841 Credit: 990,879 RAC: 0 
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http://www.giwersworld.org/OT-HTML/opening.phtml On the Origins of the Yahweh Cult by Matt Giwer, © 2010 [May 23] Next to nothing is known about the origin of the cult of the god Yahweh. There are only three usable sources of information on its origin. The first is the stories in what Christians commonly call the Old Testament. The second is historical mention. The third is archaeology. The insurmountable problem we encounter is the first source, that of the holy books of the bible, are totally discredited by both history and archaeology. Not only is there nothing to support the bible stories but also what is known relegates the stories to realm of fantasy. Even if the stories are reduced to their minimum essentials there is no credible material in the stories. Therefore either all known history and archaeology as to be discarded or the bible books must be discarded. This is not a matter of science knowing or not knowing everything. It is a matter of modern Israel being percentagewise the most dug place in the world. Not just by real archaeologists and biblical archaeologists but also amateur archaeologists. Amateur archaeologists and antiquties dealers and road builders and home builders. Home builders and home owners and home gardeners. Modern Israel is the most dug place in the world. So far everythign found shows the bible stories are false in the sense of pure fantasy. It is natural then to consider what we know of the bible books. What we know of them is that they first appear in the late 2nd to early 1st c. BC time frame. They are written in Greek. There are several different surviving collections of these stories which are commonly called the Septuagint. There is no evidence of the existence of these stories before this time. There is no evidence the Greek was a translation of an earlier version in Hebrew. From here we look to archaeology and find there is no confirmation of any of the stories or characters in the bible stories. There is no sign of any independent kingdom of either Judah or Israel although there is evidence of a kingdom of Samaria. It is old news there is no evidence for Moses and Hebrews in Egypt much less any Exodus. It is equally old news there is no evidence there was no conquest of Palestine. What is still carefully avoided is publicly stating in the popular media there is no evidence for anything in the bible stories until Pompey arrives in the region. This includes mention of the priest king John Hyrancus (both names are of Greek origin) as the ruler of a nothing, backwater place called Judea. For all intents and purposes this is the beginning of the Yahweh cult in history. The only light the Septuagint stories can shed on John Hyrancus is found in the three books of Maccabes which were commonly found in the collections. (The fourth book of Maccabe clearly dates from the late 1st c. AD.) These three recount a civil war in the region between a Yahweh cult leader, Judah Maccabe, and locals who had adopted Greek culture. The Greek rulers supplied mercenaries to the side against Judah Maccabe but were not themselves in direct conflict with him and his cult. We have to move to Flavius Josephus to pick up the story after Judah Maccabe. We read his son and grandson set out spread their Yahweh cult by military force. They successfully imposed it upon the Iodumeans (from whom Herod arose), the Galileans and the Itureans. They were forced to circumcize and adopt Judean worship customs and practices. They also conquered the Samarians but they refused circumcision and were banished. Reconciling Josephus with what we think we know is not 100% doable but one assumes he found no contradiction between what he wrote and the situation in Judea in his time. The problem is in what we think we know. Here the Judean hatred of the Herods is they were a conquered people who came to rule the region. It also explains the continuing hatred of the Samarians who to us have a minor variation upon the Judean Yahweh cult. And finally the hatred of Jesus the Galilean comes into focus. The hatred of Jesus the Galilean and his followers by the Judeans is as well established from the Book of Acts and down through history even to modern times. Also the Gospels do not stint on reciting the condemnations by Jesus of the Judean priests whose ancestors forced his ancestors to convert to their Yahweh cult. None of this tells us if Jesus actually lived but the context of the political situation in Palestine is a clear framework upon which the story was hung. And of course there are other themes in the Gospels which do not fit into this framework. The fact that there is today a Jewish religion does not imply any of the stories in the Septuagint have any basis in fact. That we think of it as an "old" religion does not mean that it is an old religion. That there is a tradition it is an old religion is meaningless. We have no idea who started that tradition, nor either when or why it was started. Putting the Septuagint stories against the rise of a Yahweh cult in a region around Jerusalem which would be named after a cult leader Judah Maccabe does not make it any different from Jonestown or the Koresh compound. We know religions can arise quickly. Islam, the Latter Day Saints and Scientology are but three examples. Scientology grew from a reaction to the psychotherapy cult to a religion in the lifetime of many people living today. There were some mentions of Moses and the Jews prior to the Septuagint stories becoming popular. One had it that Moses was a dead character from whom oracular priests in Jerusalem channeled answers to questions. Another has it that the people of Judea were philosophers from India. These mentions have to be taken on face value as we have no contradictory source of information. In what appears to be a precursor to the story of Exodus, the Judeans were lepers lead out of Egypt by an Egyptian priest named Moses. Note here our word Jew is nothing but the current word in English which derives from Judean, a person living in or show traces his ancestry to Judea. It is a geographic reference. The gospels make a clear distinction between Judeans and Galileans even though the choice of translation for Judean is usually Jews. They also distinguish Samaritans as another geographical group. Centuries later Justin, the short-lived successor to Constantine and friend of the Judeans, refered to the Christians as Galileans. The Yahweh cult Archaeology has found numerous inscriptions from Palestine referring to the local ruling god and goddess as Yahweh and Ashara. Votaries of the pair have been found. There are other names for apparently the same pair in and around Palestine. So one quite reasonably refers to this as a cult to the male god only. There are written mentions of BYT YHWH and of BYT STRT. These are translated by the pious as Temple of Yahweh and Strato's Tower. Strato had towers in Jerusalem, Caesarea and Tyre yet the pious will not tell you that STRT is aSTaRTe, another name for Ashara the companion goddess of Yahweh. This is exactly what we would expect to find from the ?????? and the inscriptions. This would represent the religion of the people not the cult of the priests of Yahweh. The religion of the priests is not the religion of the people Writings representing the religion religion of the people nor of the goddess have not survived and may not have been written down in the first place. We know the Judeans were not monotheists They never say they are. But if there was no worship of Astarte/Ashara then they Judeans would have been the strangest people in the entire world. They would have worshipped only one god. Yet no one mentioned this unique feature. Neither they nor the people who mentioned them remarked upon this unique characteristic. As there no mention of it not even by the Judeans there is no reason to assume they had only one god. That an unknown person at an unkown time for an unknown reason may have invented the idea they had only one god is not sufficient reason to assume they had only one god. And the facts are right in our face that they had two principle gods with the Septuagint stories merely those of the cult of the male god. It is instructive to look at who did not mention these Judeans in history. In the mid 5th c. BC Herodotus traveled the region and mentioned no Judeans nor anyone who could have been a Judean. He mentions the Palestinians (not Phillistines -- no one knows how that corruption got into the Septuagint) seven times as well as listing people who practiced circumcision. No Judeans there. In the late 4th c. Alexander conquers the region. There is no mention of any Judeans in the inventories of his conquests or his allies or those who simply surrendered. There is no mention of Judea or Jerusalem. These show the Judeans appeared after Alexander. As they officially appear in history with Pompey these two events bracket their appearance and the invention of the Yahweh cult. Josephus dates the Maccabes to the early mid 3rd c. BC. This would give the region around Jerusalem to absorb some of the civilization of the Greeks and build modest cities like Jerusalem. It was Greek policy, starting with Alexander, to export Greek culture. Another thing we learned from Herodotus is that the Palestinians considered themselves a branch of the Syrians. The Greek made their local capital in the Syrian city of Ephesus[?]. Thus what Greek culture would spread from Syria would naturally find its way to the hill country of Palestine sooner or later. Historical mentions and inferences appear to associate the Septuagint stories as being created in Alexandria. Thus their first appearance in Greek is even more plausible. Had they been created in Palestine we would expect them to be written in Aramaic. Note here there is no evidence "hebrew" was even a spoken language. Rather it appears to be an invented liturgical language as a polyglot of Aramaic and Greek. The script we call "hebrew" is the Aramaic script. The script used in inscriptions found by archaeologists is either Aramaic or Phoenician. No "hebrew" is to be found regardless of how many believers wish to call it "hebrew". A long time ago it was believed (for no other reason than religious tradition) that Moses wrote the first five books of the Old Testament. It was also believed he was a real person and Exodus really occurred. In Exodus the people are called Hebrews and thus the language of the first five books was called Hebrew. The sole basis for the name is a fairytale that first appears in the 2nd c. BC. That the "hebrew" uses Aramaic script clearly shows the translation is from the Greek rather than the Greek from it. It has been known for a century that the "hebraisms" in the Septuagint stories were common Koine Greek construction. This further supports the "hebrew" being a polyglot of Aramaic and Greek. In 1982 Hebrew is Greek by Joseph Yahuda, Preface by Saul Levin, was published by Becket Publications, Oxford. It shows the Greek component of Hebrew in excruciating detail. Rather than "hebraisms" in the Septuagint it is the other way around. They are Greek constructions in Hebrew. Regardless of the believers no inscription found in Palestine supports the reality of any of the Old Testament stories so their presence or absence has no bearing upon the appearance of the Yahweh cult so debate of the matter is a waste of time in regard to the substance of this essay. Why write the stories? Even if one does not accept the time frame I propose one it is a legitimate question as to why they stories were created. Consider we know the major events and people in them are all fiction. Therefore no matter who wrote them or when they were written the writer knew they were just stories. Why to people write stories? To entertain of course. Consider we know from Maccabes and Josephus roughly when and where the Yahweh cult started and how it spread to a few surrounding territories like Galilee. The Septuagint stories would have a major kingdom decline almost to the point of extinction in the Maccabes' time and then have a modest expansion. This is a contraction that goes unremarked and is incompatible with the stories prior to Maccabes. On the other hand we can look at it as a new kingdom ruled by a new cult and the storytellers are creating a marvelous past with their cult diety as a central figure all through it. There are bits and pieces of the known history of the region woven into some of the stories. Others are liberally borrowed from real people and real kingdoms. For example the description of Solomon's Kingdom "from the river in Egypt to the Eurphrates" is the description of the New King period of Egypt. There is of course no evidence whatsoever of any kingdom worth the name in Palestine prior to Roman times beyond the Phoenician city-states. If we are to say these stories were for other than entertainment but an attempt to create history then we could only describe them as forgeries. They would be creations intended to deceive. But that would be an anachronism as in those days such stories were intended to be stories. They were intended to create a fitting national mythology not to recite facts. So today's idea of taking these stories as real history, regardless of when or where or by whom created is an anachronism. It is not an idea whoever created them could have had. And the contents we impute to them are anachronism on top of anachronism. On one hand we consider Herodotus and Thuycides to be the first historians. We do not consider unknown Palestinians to have been the first historians. We consider the first coherent collection of god stories to have been Theogony not an anonymous collection from an illiterate land. Rather what we read is a collection of many types of writings first invented by the Greeks at their peak. Thus the writers had to be drawing on those Greek ideas thus dating the creation of these stories after the Greek inventions and by people who were to some extent familiar with Greek literature. We do not find the verse style common when transmission was by memorization but rather the prose style in use when writing was the common means of transmission. Beyond the Phoenician coastal cities of Palestine we do not find any evidence of a literate culture. In all cases of literate cultures we find the most common form of writing to be legal documents such as sales contracts. In the middle we find government decrees and laws. The smallest category of written materials is religious materials. And even in religious materials many of them are receipts for donations and other temple business. Thus we would not expect to find the religious writings of Palestine to appear until after they were far out-numbered by contract and government material. This time does not appear until after a century of Greek rule. Before this time there was so little importance to writing that what little is found is on pieces of broken pottery indicating intact pottery was more valuable than writing materials. Not even flat tablets specially fired for writing are found even though they would have been immensely cheaper to produce than pottery. If this were their religion why the force? Something we are struck with over and over is the liberal use of the death penalty for the violation of Judean customs. Were this truly the religion of the people then there would be no need for force. That it is a religion imposed by force explains the need to use force. The religion of the people has only a peripheral relation to the religion of the priests. The priests do not mingle. At best they teach and mostly by punishing transgressions as their preferred teaching method. You can tell them not to mention the holy name until you are blue in the face but a bloody stoning for saying Jehovah gets the point across much better. See "The Life of Brian" for details. Which brings us to the nature of this Yahweh cult. It is a ritual/taboo cult with genital mutilation as an initiation rite. It is not a religion as we recognize one today. In fact in the 1st c. BC it was a savage and primitive cult in a culture which abjured any kind of body mutilation. Even today Judaism makes no bones about its classical form and most Jews say its only form is to govern all of one's life with rituals and taboos. No form of Judaism today, not even Reform, is a creedal religion, a religion where beliefs matter in the least. Passover is a required ritual. It does not matter if one believes the story in Exodus or even in Exodus itself. This has lead to a wide range of stories on old testament themes and characters. A five volume collection of these stories published as THE LEGENDS OF THE JEWS BY LOUIS GINZBERG TRANSLATED FROM THE GERMAN MANUSCRIPT BY HENRIETTA SZOLD is one source. It has no parallel in Christianity. Were a Christian to take any of these stories seriously he would instantly find himself a heretic as it would give a different meaning from the approved belief about the original story. For a Jew it does not matter as it is only a belief whereas a Jew is defined by the rituals and the taboos. There is no reason to think this was not always the attitude. Thus it is flat out wrong to think the Septuagint stories were ever taken seriously by the creator, by the reader, by any Judean. There are no separate categories of "true" and "entertaining" stories. There are merely stories. Never accept any claim of mass murder until the bodies have been dug up and counted by a neutral party. -- The Iron Webmaster, 3382 Unvarnished Haaretz Jerusalem Post The origin of the Yahweh Cult ID: 999112 ·  |
 skildude  Send message Joined: 4 Oct 00 Posts: 9541 Credit: 50,759,529 RAC: 60 
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Most of the Old testament writing if you'd care to read them would tell you that most of the adventures of the Hebrews and Israelites were not in the Promised land. Their history in the Promised land is well documented. See the Temple mount and wailing wall. They didn't live their long since they were defeated by the babylonians and carted off as slaves to their empire. I get tired from reading your diatribes. It's always so cut and dried with you. Black and White. Of course many of the stories in the bible like Noah are ripped from Sumerian writings but its the story that they tell that is important. Also note that every civilization advertises that they have the most best and perfectly logical history. Heck I recall watching a history channel show on the ancient middle east. one of the archeologists found hitite writings that declared they made the best weapons in the land. It turns out this was a falsehood by the hittites to sell more swords. the Babylonians made better weapons and it was common knowledge. Heres something for you to do as homework. take the focus of defaming Israel, they aren't going anywhere and they'll wait for you to finish this, then go an read up on every other ancient civilization from the mediterranian east to Persia. You'll find that everyone of them thought they were the chosen people. that everyone of them wanted to conquer their neighbors. etc etc The only people that survived all of that were the Hebrews/Jews. I'll give them Kudoos for just that, surviving intact as a people. Remember, History is just that its to be read about but generally not repeated.  In a rich man's house there is no place to spit but his face. Diogenes Of Sinope ID: 999114 · |
Fayvitt  Send message Joined: 29 Nov 09 Posts: 217 Credit: 1,190,636 RAC: 0 
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But the stories they tell are taken as literal fact. A whole religion, a whole wannabe state is based upon those "stories" that they deem historically accurate, and to be God's word. And look at how one is criticized for saying otherwise? You just admitted they aren't accurate. When did defending lies/falsehoods become necessary? Is it a hate crime to say a spade truly is a spade, and not a shovel? I did some research, as you suggested Matt Giwer do. Umm, the Egyptians are still around. The Phoenicians are still around. Except they learnt from history. To get along. They aren't fighting continuously, still, for more land. 
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skildude Send message Joined: 4 Oct 00 Posts: 9541 Credit: 50,759,529 RAC: 60
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the country we now call Egypt is Arabic not Egyptian. the Egyptians and other tribes along the African Coast were either converted or Died worshiping their pagan gods. Like I said read a bit. Their is very little of any Egyptian left in Egypt. likewise their are very few native peoples in the north african coast. they are predominantly Arab now. Why? Convert or die. that was the Muslim Policy for all pagans and animists back in the day. Jews and Christians were not part of the policy because they already believed in the one true God. the Ottoman Turks likewise are much like the Romans they only became an empire because they conquered land. there were very few original ottomans when that empire fell much like the Romans. Everyone was a turk but nobody was really a turk. The Point? Israel and its people are not about the History fact but about their Identity as a people. They have persevered thorough thousands of years as a people. Much like Christians sects have developed but they still are all the same folks. Now there has been some loss of genetic identity when the population mingles with others (europeans, africas and central asians). however they clearly belong where they say they do. Genetic testing proves it. Israeli people that have never moved in millenia from the palestinian/israeli territories are genetics very similar to the other tribes that also claim to be from that area. Thus we can see that in reality we are watching Brother kill brother cousin kill cousin when the sides clash in the territories. If we ourselves look back far enough I'm sure we'll find things we dont like in our family tree. incest, rape victim, rapists, murders. remember this. People alive today are desendents of cowards, villains, warrior, and religious folk. In European history there have been so many wars I dont care to count. Each brought with it rape, murder, theft, identity theft, pillaging and other gratuitous. So back on topic. through all history no people have maintained their beliefs for so long. All they want is to be left alone and we cant seem to make that happpen either. How about picking on the Japanese for their ingrained politeness in the presense of the abject horror of matchbox homes and overpopulation. Or the Chinese for insisting the Tibetans have always been chinese, which they aren't. Serious dude. please find another population of people to pick on. Heck you rail on they judeans for being polytheists and other silliness yet we ignore the fact that the Christian religion has so many holes in it that it could be sliced for a nice cheesey lunch. But you'd rather start in on someone that clearly hasn't harmed you. you dig up pseudo fact and opinions and make these your facts. The reality is we know very little about the history of the world and there are some parts of the old testament that are clearly robbed from other peoples. Heck lets not forget that most of the biblical story took place in and around Iraq. shall we blame that country for not converting them? This thread is just silliness wrapped up in anti sematic crap In a rich man's house there is no place to spit but his face. Diogenes Of Sinope ID: 999134 · |
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ML1 Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 20289 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20 
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... were either converted or Died... Why? Convert or die. that was the Muslim Policy for all pagans and animists back in the day. A harsh example of religious evolution in action! Jews and Christians were not part of the policy because they already believed in the one true God. Was that actually just a clever political ploy?... Or did a certain charismatic writer borrow from the older same scriptures as was used by the Christians and Jews (and various others)? ... Thus we can see that in reality we are watching Brother kill brother cousin kill cousin when the sides clash... That is always the case if you accept that everyone is connected to everyone else across a span of at most just seven generations/relatives. ... This thread is just silliness wrapped up in anti sematic crap As appears to be the case for most of Matt's skewered 'logic' and deliberately blinkered stance. Or is that just the art of "Trolling"? Keep searchin', Regards, Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) ID: 999144 · |
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Fayvitt Send message Joined: 29 Nov 09 Posts: 217 Credit: 1,190,636 RAC: 0
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The Egyptian people are still the same Egyptian people, genetically. That hasn't changed for thousands of years. Yeah, i read a bit. The people? I'm not knocking the people. They can kill each other willy nilly for all i care. Genetically? Well, i'd like to see your resources/information sources on that. Most Jews immigrated to Israel, and have as much genetic claim as i do to a hedgehog. It is an adopted religion also, all through history. Don't always have to be born to Jewish parents to be one. I was correcting you on your reply to the initial post. Not all Jews live in Israel. It was not aimed at Israel, as i read it. It simply stated errors in history and religion that people take for granted as true, as they don't know any better or don't care to know. The post contains some enlightening information, and of course it will always get under the skin of those who don't like their faith questioned. I despise all religions. My 2 cents worth. Edit.... It's just like saying all Roman Catholics must be of Italian descent, as that's where the Church started. So all Catholics have a claim on Italy. And how far back do these genetic links you speak of go? 500 - 1000 - 2000 - 2500 years? It is no different in recent history with Catholics and Protestants in Ireland, but their genetic links are a damn sight more provable. They are the same stock. It's just religion in which they differ. Genetically, pick a point in time and we are all related somewhere.
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Blurf Send message Joined: 2 Sep 06 Posts: 8962 Credit: 12,678,685 RAC: 0
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Giwer--I wonder if you took your posts and redacted the blatant anti-semitism that you yourself post--if maybe your posts would contain any valid information?   ID: 999159 · |
hiamps  Send message Joined: 23 May 99 Posts: 4292 Credit: 72,971,319 RAC: 0
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Thats why I run seti...Maybe someday we will all be Earthlings instead of Arabs, jews, yanks..... Official Abuser of Boinc Buttons... And no good credit hound! 
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skildude Send message Joined: 4 Oct 00 Posts: 9541 Credit: 50,759,529 RAC: 60
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for giggles read the last line of part 1 http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/abstracts.html or this http://www.physicsforums.com/archive/index.php/t-58322.html According to several other studies, Palestinians and Jews are genetically closer to each other than either is to the Arabs of Arabia or to Europeans [5]. A study of congenital deafness identified an allele limited to Palestinian and Jews of Ashkenazi origin (those who lived in Europe in recent centuries), suggesting a common origin. Furthermore, Y-chromosome polymorphism is very similar among Palestinians and Sephardic Jews. [6]. While current studies show a lot of similarities and genetic closeness may be used to confirm claims of both sides to Israel/Palesitne, but right now, results are incomplete and are subject to much interpretation. [7] The above statements are based on the currently available information, but may be questioned by future studies I could go on but why bother In a rich man's house there is no place to spit but his face. Diogenes Of Sinope ID: 999181 · |
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Matt Giwer Send message Joined: 21 May 00 Posts: 841 Credit: 990,879 RAC: 0
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Most of the Old testament writing if you'd care to read them would tell you that most of the adventures of the Hebrews and Israelites were not in the Promised land. Their history in the Promised land is well documented. See the Temple mount and wailing wall. They didn't live their long since they were defeated by the babylonians and carted off as slaves to their empire. There is no physical evidence there ever were any biblical Hebrews or Israelites which is the only thing a rational person would consider. The only thing which believers call a history is the Septuagint stories which real history and archaeology show are not a description of what happened there. The surviving descriptions of the temple in Herod's time from which location can be inferred preclude the temple mount as the location of the temple. Josephus clearly writes that it was in the lower city. There is no evidence of any time in Babylon so that is also Septuagint fiction. But should you know of physical evidence you should post it here. Rather better publish it and be the first so you get the professional credit. I get tired from reading your diatribes. It's always so cut and dried with you. Black and White. Of course many of the stories in the bible like Noah are ripped from Sumerian writings but its the story that they tell that is important. Don't read them if they bother you. Yes, it is cut and dried when one uses the same methods and applies the same standards as applied to all ancient civilizations. When they are then the Septuagint stories filled with gods and magic are fiction. One would think the gods and magic would be a very big hint they are fiction. There is nothing more important in the Noah version of the story than in any other version of it. I find it strange that believers are always trying to apply different rules to the Septuagint than and archaeology in Palestine than exist every place else in the world. Also note that every civilization advertises that they have the most best and perfectly logical history. Heck I recall watching a history channel show on the ancient middle east. one of the archeologists found hitite writings that declared they made the best weapons in the land. It turns out this was a falsehood by the hittites to sell more swords. the Babylonians made better weapons and it was common knowledge. What does that have to do with the total absence of any inscriptions in bibleland which show the Septuagint to be other than a deliberate work of fiction? The only apparent connection is as a backstory for the Maccabes showing they had the right to rule Judea by virtue of prior conquest. Which makes it as much BS and the sword advertizing. Heres something for you to do as homework. take the focus of defaming Israel, The greater Israel's atrocities the more antisemitic those who mention them. Pardon but Israel is able to defame itself without my help and does so regular and with great enthusiasm. On this upcoming weekend they are going to prevent food from being delivered to Gaza so that Israel's malnutrition blockade will continue as planned. they aren't going anywhere and they'll wait for you to finish this, then go an read up on every other ancient civilization from the mediterranian east to Persia. You'll find that everyone of them thought they were the chosen people. that everyone of them wanted to conquer their neighbors. etc etc You do not appear to get the point. There is no evidence biblical Israel or Judah ever existed. Therefore it is impossible to make any comparison. One cannot compare a civilization which did exist with one that did not. I'll give them Kudoos for just that, surviving intact as a people. As Professor Sand demonstrates in tedious detail, the idea that Jews are other than practitioners of Judaism was invented by the Zionists. He very clearly demonstrates the idea of a "people" is a 19th c. invention and is an impossible anachronism to apply the idea before it existed. Remember, History is just that its to be read about but generally not repeated. Similarly Herodotus is considered the inventor of history not an illiterate goatherd. Again it is an anachronism to claim history was written before it was invented. On a lighter note, What's the difference between an Israeli and an Israelite? One third the calories of course. Unvarnished Haaretz Jerusalem Post The origin of the Yahweh Cult ID: 999261 · |
Luke  Send message Joined: 31 Dec 06 Posts: 2546 Credit: 817,560 RAC: 0 
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We wouldn't be discussing this irrational nonsense (religion, not the article in question) if everyone had some common sense. Last time I checked, atheism didn't cause 9/11, the crusades, killings in the name of Allah, forum arguments, astronomers to be wrongfully imprisoned, sexually promiscuous priests and holy wars. No, it caused people to think rationally. "If you could reason with religious people, there would be no religious people". - Gregory House M.D. - Luke. ID: 999273 · |
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Matt Giwer Send message Joined: 21 May 00 Posts: 841 Credit: 990,879 RAC: 0
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the country we now call Egypt is Arabic not Egyptian. That makes about as much sense as saying the Amerinds in the US are British because they have adopted English as their language. the Egyptians and other tribes along the African Coast were either converted or Died worshiping their pagan gods. Josephus clearly recounts the wars of the son and grandson of Judah Maccabe on the Iodumeans, Galileans and Samarians for the purpose of forcing them to adopt circumcision as well as the rituals and taboos of the Judeans. He reports they were successful imposing the religion on the first time but Samarians refused and chose banishment. So the Judeans get the credit for the idea of expanding a religion by force of arms. At most Islam used the Judean method. However the Egyptians in the time of Islam were almost all Christians and as such were not forced to convert. Neither were the Judeans. Islam extended a courtesy the Judeans did not. Like I said read a bit. Their is very little of any Egyptian left in Egypt. likewise their are very few native peoples in the north african coast. they are predominantly Arab now. Why? Convert or die. that was the Muslim Policy for all pagans and animists back in the day. Jews and Christians were not part of the policy because they already believed in the one true God. It is also true by the time Islam spread across north Africa they were also Christians or Jews. As is well known then the Judeans were prevented from the use of force to spread their religion by the Romans they switched to peaceful conversion methods which were later adopted by the Christians. Again, Professo Sand is merely the latest in a long line of people who have documented these conversion efforts and the people who converted. Needless to say the same courtesy of retaining their previous religion was granted to the Jews and Christians conquered. Where are you getting the nonsense you are posting? the Ottoman Turks likewise are much like the Romans they only became an empire because they conquered land. there were very few original ottomans when that empire fell much like the Romans. Everyone was a turk but nobody was really a turk. Again you demonstrate an abysmal ignorance of history. The Turks remained Turks although with centuries of intermarriage with Anatolians, Macedonians, Thracians and others who lived in the land it is moot as to what they "were" in that sense. They adopted Greek culture and retained their own language. The Point? Israel and its people are not about the History fact but about their Identity as a people. If you would like to play a game, name something other than religion which is shared by all the people whom the Zionist types call Jews. Keep in mind the Ashkenazis are converts without any particular ancestral connection to bibleland. And I have a report of a Israeli court decision which says Jews are not a single ethnic group. I really am interested in what believers say is common to all Jews that is not the religion. I really cannot imagine Moroccan Jews doing a Russian circle dance while singing Hava Negila to the tune of Irving Berlin. They have persevered thorough thousands of years as a people. Those in Palestine mostly converted to Islam either directly of via Christianity. The Khazars aka Ashkenazi adopted the religion when caught between the Christian west and Islam in the east so they don't get that many years. As to the number of years, the religion first appears in history and archaeology in the early 1st c. BC when this cult appears to have been imposed on the Judeans following the victory of Judah Maccabe over the civilized people in the region. It is not clear why the Maccabes adopted this cult nor what the appeal might have been for a ritual/taboo culture and genital mutilation. Perhaps it was just an in-your-face approach to the Greeks, thumbing their noses at civilized behavior and learning and at the Greek condemnation of any kind of body mutilation. Much like Christians sects have developed but they still are all the same folks. Now there has been some loss of genetic identity when the population mingles with others (europeans, africas and central asians). however they clearly belong where they say they do. Genetic testing proves it. Israeli people that have never moved in millenia from the palestinian/israeli territories are genetics very similar to the other tribes that also claim to be from that area. Thus we can see that in reality we are watching Brother kill brother cousin kill cousin when the sides clash in the territories. It is quite well know the Palestinian and Sephardim are the same people and that the Ashkenazi are no more related to them than anyone else. But why does it appear you are advancing the absolutely nonsensical idea that genetics establishes land ownership? EVERY human descended from those who left Africa has ancestors who once called Palestine home. It is also well known the Judeans left Palestine voluntarily and were never expelled but even if they were they need to complain to Rome not displace their ancestors who stayed and converted to a less primitive religion. If we ourselves look back far enough I'm sure we'll find things we dont like in our family tree. incest, rape victim, rapists, murders. remember this. I am afraid nothing can excuse the murdering zionists. So back on topic. through all history no people have maintained their beliefs for so long. All they want is to be left alone and we cant seem to make that happpen either.[quote] To be analogous I would have to expose unsupported claims they were making about the origins of Shinto. I am unaware of any they are making. However were I to do so I doubt they would take it as an attack on the Japanese. They are too smart to take it that way. Heck you rail on they judeans for being polytheists and other silliness yet we ignore the fact that the Christian religion has so many holes in it that it could be sliced for a nice cheesey lunch. But you'd rather start in on someone that clearly hasn't harmed you. you dig up pseudo fact and opinions and make these your facts. The reality is we know very little about the history of the world and there are some parts of the old testament that are clearly robbed from other peoples. You miss the point of course. Both Islam and Christianity are based upon the belief the Septuagint stories are true. By exposing Judaism the other two collapse automatically. This thread is just silliness wrapped up in anti sematic crap It is rather your odd response which would declare those who know Atlantis is BS being declared anti-Atlanean for saying so. Unvarnished Haaretz Jerusalem Post The origin of the Yahweh Cult ID: 999276 · |
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Matt Giwer Send message Joined: 21 May 00 Posts: 841 Credit: 990,879 RAC: 0
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Giwer--I wonder if you took your posts and redacted the blatant anti-semitism that you yourself post--if maybe your posts would contain any valid information? Only an antisemite would say the Red Sea did not part. Is that what you are saying? I started this thread posting exactly what is known about the origin of the Septuagint stories. That is all I did. Name calling does not change one word of what I wrote not does it produce physical evidence where there is no physical evidence. If you do not like what I have recited you can produce physical evidence and show how that evidence supports different conclusions. Name calling will get you no further than holding your breath until you turn blue in this world. Unvarnished Haaretz Jerusalem Post The origin of the Yahweh Cult ID: 999278 · |
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Matt Giwer Send message Joined: 21 May 00 Posts: 841 Credit: 990,879 RAC: 0
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for giggles read the last line of part 1 What you post connects the Palestinians and the Sephardim which is what I said. Your confirmation is appreciated. I am surprised you posted confirmation after your original response. Maybe I misjudged you. Unvarnished Haaretz Jerusalem Post The origin of the Yahweh Cult ID: 999280 · |
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Fayvitt Send message Joined: 29 Nov 09 Posts: 217 Credit: 1,190,636 RAC: 0
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I'm kind of confused with info on one of those linked websites http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/abstracts.html There in the opening statement, right at the end it says.. All existing studies fail to compare modern Jewish populations' DNA to ancient Judean DNA and medieval Khazarian DNA, but in the absence of old DNA, comparisons with living populations appear to be adequate to trace geographic roots. Yet later on it says.. Sephardim also descend, in a smaller way, from various non-Israelite peoples. So, if there's no old DNA to compare against, how is one certain that they are all descendants of Israelites? Did we manufacture some DNA for convenience? Kind of contradictory. :) I like your sources skildude. They are very much confirming the facts of the original post.
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Matt Giwer Send message Joined: 21 May 00 Posts: 841 Credit: 990,879 RAC: 0
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I'm kind of confused with info on one of those linked websites The page is also emblematic of the pernicious custom of using Israel and Israelite when there is no evidence for such a place or people in ancient times. From real history there are only two terms which can properly be used, Palestinian or Egyptian. We know from Herodotus that the land was called Palestine and the people Palestinians in the mid 5th c. BC. We know from archaeology the land was ruled by Egypt from about 1500 BC to the 9th c. BC. We also know there is no evidence of any place calling itself Israel between those times nor before nor after until modern times. This religious tradition of calling the region Israel and the people Israelites is no more than a religious tradition and has no business being used outside of religious contexts. One of the things I have had to do is to consistently use (at times almost create) terminology that is devoid of religious traditions. Septuagint instead of Bible or Old Testament is one example. Referring to the land as Palestine as per Herodotus avoids the word Israel, a place which exists only in the Septuagint universe. Consistently referring to it as fiction instead of legend is also important as there is no evidence the Septuagint stories were legends before written. The same for referring to them as myths. Legend and myth imply the stories were old before written when in fact there is no evidence of their existence before the stories were created. Unvarnished Haaretz Jerusalem Post The origin of the Yahweh Cult ID: 999347 · |
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Matt Giwer Send message Joined: 21 May 00 Posts: 841 Credit: 990,879 RAC: 0
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[a]http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/abstracts.html[/a] Since the above has been raised lets explore it a bit further. In it we find "The DNA of the Crimean Karaites and Egyptian Karaites remain to be studied on a large-scale basis. Small-scale testing of Crimean Karaites occurred during the years 2005 and 2006 and the results were published in the 2nd edition of The Jews of Khazaria in October 2006. One more Crimean Karaite sample was tested later. The tests were upgraded to 37 markers in 2009-2010 and yielded more precise results, and more matches were located as well. The latest analysis will be published later." Who are these Karaites? I assume everyone is familiar with the Spanish Inquisition made famous by Mel Brooks and Monty Python. It is a favorite target of Jews about how bad they had it. Rabbinical Judaism holds there is the written law which is found in first five book of the Septuagint. It also holds there is the oral law which is the provenance of the rabbis. Their power in the their communities, which was considerable and still is in modern Israel, rests upon their knowledge of the oral law which suffice to say can be remembered to one's advantage. The Karaites accept the written law but reject the oral law and thus reject the authority of the rabbis. Needless to say this did not sit very well with the rabbis. A century before the famous Spanish Inquisition the Karaites became common in Spain and the rabbis obtained royal permission to conduct their own inquisition to seek out the Karaites and force them to acknowledge the rabbis' authority. Needless to say they used the same methods and had the same penalties as were later used in the famous inquisition. [/quote] Unvarnished Haaretz Jerusalem Post The origin of the Yahweh Cult ID: 999352 · |
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Matt Giwer Send message Joined: 21 May 00 Posts: 841 Credit: 990,879 RAC: 0
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We wouldn't be discussing this irrational nonsense (religion, not the article in question) if everyone had some common sense. Atheism did not cause Zionism which is the latest in a long line of European affronts to rational behavior and exactly comparable to the Crusades. ID: 1020331 · |
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Matt Giwer Send message Joined: 21 May 00 Posts: 841 Credit: 990,879 RAC: 0
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Giwer--I wonder if you took your posts and redacted the blatant anti-semitism that you yourself post--if maybe your posts would contain any valid information? You are invited to be the first to recite which parts of my posts are antisemitic. Be the first! Start a tradition! ID: 1020336 · |
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Matt Giwer Send message Joined: 21 May 00 Posts: 841 Credit: 990,879 RAC: 0
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All people who are not of recent Black African descent have a claim upon bibleland as all of them once called it home. The route out of bibleland is through Palestine. That makes your claim and my claim to Palestine at least 60,000 years and perhaps as much as 100,000 years old. Who are they newbie Zionists pretending to be Jews? ID: 1020337 · |
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