Out of the fire and into the pit of sulfuric acid. (Feb 19, 2010)


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Message boards : Technical News : Out of the fire and into the pit of sulfuric acid. (Feb 19, 2010)

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Berserker
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Message 972759 - Posted: 21 Feb 2010, 13:12:57 UTC - in response to Message 972745.
Last modified: 21 Feb 2010, 13:14:11 UTC

So here we go again...

I consider myself have the right to count on the attentive relation to efficiency of my work timely informing on an essence of problems and a course of their elimination.


Why do you think you have that right? Why do you think you have any right? Sure, you've contributed your CPU time, and quite possibly money (in the form of electricity bills to keep that system running and/or a donation), and I don't doubt the SETI@home administrators are grateful for that, but what right does that give you to make demands? None whatsoever.

Sorry if you don't like that, but that's just the way it is.

Oh, and by the way, Eric, Matt and all the others don't have to come in out of hours, or access the servers remotely, or all the other things they do. They volunteer too. Some things are just beyond their control to fix, and this seems like one of those.

PS - back on topic - I can't do pathping from here. One of the servers at my ISP doesn't respond to ping which stops the whole thing dead.
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Message 972761 - Posted: 21 Feb 2010, 13:32:13 UTC - in response to Message 972759.

"Oh, and by the way, Eric, Matt and all the others don't have to come in out of hours, or access the servers remotely, or all the other things they do. They volunteer too. Some things are just beyond their control to fix, and this seems like one of those."

1. We all do stuff 'above and beyond' don't we? SETI staff aren't unique in that. Their efforts are appreciated by many who regularly post encouragement and thanks, but taking 2 minutes out of the day to let others know what you're doing isn't that arduous surely?

2. If it's beyond their control then:

a) Why don't they just say so? Or are you just assuming/guessing? If you are then that could be prevented by the project staff giving a brief update couldn't it!!!

b) If it's not something within their power to fix then why are they too busy to write a brief update!!!


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Message 972765 - Posted: 21 Feb 2010, 13:47:49 UTC - in response to Message 972761.
Last modified: 21 Feb 2010, 13:49:29 UTC

I predicted that here... Give the users a snippet of info and they demand updates.

Now just imagine that with all the 'effort' you've poured into demanding these updates, you could've done so many other things, away from the computer, with family, friends. You'll never regain those minutes again. :-)
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Message 972778 - Posted: 21 Feb 2010, 14:13:03 UTC

I'm just as frustrated as everyone else but some of you guys are too much! Eric plainly stated he is working on the problem (well, now it's the weekend so I hope he's not working on it until Monday) And I'm quite sure everyone pinging the server 500 times doesn't help!

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Message 972779 - Posted: 21 Feb 2010, 14:17:21 UTC - in response to Message 972765.

I predicted that here... Give the users a snippet of info and they demand updates.

Now just imagine that with all the 'effort' you've poured into demanding these updates, you could've done so many other things, away from the computer, with family, friends. You'll never regain those minutes again. :-)


If that's aimed at me then you'll be pleased to know that my 'efforts' in this regard (i.e. simply asking for a brief daily update, not hourly, during this prolongued issue) have been done whilst I've been voluntarily testing a dbase change over the weekend for work; and yes, that has even involved keeping the other volunteers in the loop. It hasn't been too much of a problem to do this whilst also getting on with family life... but thanks for your concern!

So you think that complete silence at all times is the way forward? Nice!




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Message 972782 - Posted: 21 Feb 2010, 14:22:47 UTC - in response to Message 972759.

PS - back on topic - I can't do pathping from here. One of the servers at my ISP doesn't respond to ping which stops the whole thing dead.

There is
http://visualroute.visualware.com/ which shows no problems and
http://visualroute.visualware.co.uk/ which does. Very strange.
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Message 972783 - Posted: 21 Feb 2010, 14:27:33 UTC - in response to Message 972779.

I had my dad go through open heart surgery a few years back. they said it would be about 3-4 hours. turns out it was more like 8 hours. We understood that the Surgeon couldn't drop everything to come tell us how things were going and he wasnt going to sent a Nurse to do his job.

The same thing applies here. We know that they are working on the problem. They'll let us know whats going on when they get it fixed. I wouldnt expect any more contact from them until its done. Most of what they are doing would be lost on the average user anyway so what the point of hearing about mount points and /dev files
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Message 972790 - Posted: 21 Feb 2010, 15:22:39 UTC

i hope your father is doing well and doesn’t have "pump" syndrome, which is a greater risk of a extended procedure. the difference between a good heart surgeon and a great one is speed, and has nothing to do with precision.

but we like the detail, there is usually something in a detailed report for everyone.
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Message 972795 - Posted: 21 Feb 2010, 15:32:35 UTC - in response to Message 972790.

my dads surgery was several years ago and was meant as an allegory for our current condition here. We need to allow the surgeons to do their job and they'll get back to us when they are done. Updates are pointless many backsteps occur when dealing with software/hardware issues. So giving us a thumbs up when they aren't near being done is foolish.

Let them finish
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Message 972802 - Posted: 21 Feb 2010, 16:09:06 UTC - in response to Message 972745.

In this business


Business?!

Last time I looked, this was a strictly volunteer effort. Everyone on this project, to the best of my knowledge, is unpaid for their output of time and energy.

Working in the project as the volunteer, I consider myself have the right to count on the attentive relation to efficiency of my work timely informing on an essence of problems and a course of their elimination.


Methinks you have no right whatsoever to be so arrogant.
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Message 972819 - Posted: 21 Feb 2010, 17:12:16 UTC - in response to Message 972795.
Last modified: 21 Feb 2010, 17:20:21 UTC

Hi, this looks really strange, no wonder nothing gets through.

0 Leisure [192.168.2.2]
1 192.168.2.1
2 195.190.249.32
3 iawxsrt-rt2-bb21-ge-3-1-0.wxs.nl [213.75.64.145]
4 ams-ix.he.net [195.69.145.150]
5 10gigabitethernet4-1.core1.nyc4.he.net [216.66.24.153]
6 10gigabitethernet1-2.core1.chi1.he.net [72.52.92.102]
7 10gigabitethernet3-2.core1.sjc2.he.net [72.52.92.73]
8 10gigabitethernet3-2.core1.pao1.he.net [72.52.92.69]
9 64.71.140.42
10 208.68.243.254
11 boinc2.ssl.berkeley.edu [208.68.240.18]

*Statistieken worden nu gedurende een periode van 275 seconden berekend...
Van bron - hier Dit knooppunt / deze verbinding
Hop RTT Verl./verzonden Verloren/verz. Adres
0 Leisure [192.168.2.2]
0/ 100 = 0% |
1 1ms 0/ 100 = 0% 0/ 100 = 0% 192.168.2.1
0/ 100 = 0% |
2 --- 100/ 100 =100% 100/ 100 =100% 195.190.249.32
0/ 100 = 0% |
3 30ms 0/ 100 = 0% 0/ 100 = 0% iawxsrt-rt2-bb21-ge-3-1-0.wxs.nl [213.75.64.145]
0/ 100 = 0% |
4 29ms 0/ 100 = 0% 0/ 100 = 0% ams-ix.he.net [195.69.145.150]
0/ 100 = 0% |
5 119ms 0/ 100 = 0% 0/ 100 = 0% 10gigabitethernet4-1.core1.nyc4.he.net [216.66.24.153]
0/ 100 = 0% |
6 141ms 0/ 100 = 0% 0/ 100 = 0% 10gigabitethernet1-2.core1.chi1.he.net [72.52.92.102]
0/ 100 = 0% |
7 193ms 0/ 100 = 0% 0/ 100 = 0% 10gigabitethernet3-2.core1.sjc2.he.net [72.52.92.73]
0/ 100 = 0% |
8 195ms 0/ 100 = 0% 0/ 100 = 0% 10gigabitethernet3-2.core1.pao1.he.net [72.52.92.69]
0/ 100 = 0% |
9 198ms 0/ 100 = 0% 0/ 100 = 0% 64.71.140.42
2/ 100 = 2% |
10 198ms 12/ 100 = 12% 10/ 100 = 10% 208.68.243.254
0/ 100 = 0% |
11 198ms 2/ 100 = 2% 0/ 100 = 0% boinc2.ssl.berkeley.edu [208.68.240.18]

???
*Statistics are being calculated for 275 seconds, from source to endpoint.
Looks like my MODEM/ROUTER, but E@H, on the same host, has no problems?!
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Message 972821 - Posted: 21 Feb 2010, 17:13:52 UTC - in response to Message 972802.

So we've established that we're ALL volunteers for SETI. Cool.

Some of us would just like to hear from some of the other volunteers with their insider knowledge when there's a major issue occurring, just like we are doing now; doesn't take very long does it? Just once a day at most would be fine, and if one day they say 'look we're trying something out and we won't know if it's worked for a couple of days' then guess what I'd be quite happy to wait a couple of days for the next update. Shock!

I'm not asking for the Moon-on-a-stick; just that the volunteer community out here should be informed of major issues; that way we would all keep a lot calmer and could actually help if there's a request to press/stop pressing buttons, etc..! The Technical News page pretty much says this is what it is intended to be for.


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Message 972836 - Posted: 21 Feb 2010, 17:43:08 UTC - in response to Message 972795.

my dads surgery was several years ago and was meant as an allegory for our current condition here. We need to allow the surgeons to do their job and they'll get back to us when they are done. Updates are pointless many backsteps occur when dealing with software/hardware issues. So giving us a thumbs up when they aren't near being done is foolish.

Let them finish


The problem at this point is that we don't even know if they are actively working on this. It's been almost a week and no real info (no "it's this router" or "it's an Internet fault" or "whatever")

I know that they are underpaid (if at all) but at this point, I am coming to believe that commitment seems to be lacking for this problem - I hope I am wrong.
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Message 972838 - Posted: 21 Feb 2010, 17:45:02 UTC

Maybe it's just time to move on, to do something else with the unused computing power or turn them off altogether to make that carbon footprint a bit smaller. Has anybody ever calculated how much electricity we have wasted erm used so far ? If enough volunteers stop volunteering because they are annoyed with the hickups, then there will be enough capacity for the rest eventually.

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Message 972847 - Posted: 21 Feb 2010, 18:09:09 UTC - in response to Message 972836.

The problem at this point is that we don't even know if they are actively working on this. It's been almost a week and no real info (no "it's this router" or "it's an Internet fault" or "whatever")

The problem is people just don't pay attention when something is said.
Have you considered reading the very first post in this very thread?
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Message 972851 - Posted: 21 Feb 2010, 18:14:19 UTC - in response to Message 972836.

The problem at this point is that we don't even know if they are actively working on this.

So, let's say Eric stepped up and said "I'm actively working on it."

That opens the door to "what are you doing?" and starts a long discussion on what he may have missed, or why it isn't showing the expected results.

... and it opens the door to "why is it taking so long?"

... and "if it still seems to be broken, why do you think that fixed it?"

None of which is productive.

If you tell someone something has wet paint, they're going to touch it to see.

Most of the people complaining won't be satisfied until they see it for themselves.

If you go back through the evidence over a decade of SETI@Home, it's pretty clear the staff gets paid 8/5, but frequently has their eye on things nearly 24/7 -- and actions speak.
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Message 972864 - Posted: 21 Feb 2010, 18:35:20 UTC
Last modified: 21 Feb 2010, 18:40:06 UTC

Although the outages and hiccups in SETI are very frustrating, and considering the actual full-functionality uptime, I think the SETI staff does an exemplary job of keeping it all running. When, in fact, they operate on a shoestring budget with piecemeal sub-par equipment.

Here's the rub - if everyone participating in SETI donated a paltry $20 per year... SETI could be flying high on top-notch equipment, with truely redundant servers. And they could hire more staff to have 24-7-365 on-site computer whizzes monitoring the equipment. Now isn’t that a novel thought.

So, instead of complaining about the downtime and hiccups…. DONATE some bucks every year to SETI@home.
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I DONATE money to SETI@home.... DO YOU?

I'm just slowly BOINC'ing along.

Hey... ET... you have a sister who likes earthlings?

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Message 972868 - Posted: 21 Feb 2010, 18:46:09 UTC - in response to Message 972864.
Last modified: 21 Feb 2010, 18:47:01 UTC

...
Here's the rub - if everyone participating in SETI donated a paltry $20 per year... SETI could be flying high on top-notch equipment, with truely redundant servers. And they could hire more staff to have 24-7-365 on-site computer whizzes monitoring the equipment. Now isn’t that a novel thought.


No thank you, i already donate at least $6,ooo.oo a year in cpu time. they need to find appropriate funding, or just fold (pun intended). either i'm fine with, put just don't continue the way they are.
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Message 972869 - Posted: 21 Feb 2010, 18:47:00 UTC

Above wrote that I haughtily apply for the right to be informed concerning project problems. Certainly I have no legal rights, I do not apply at all for the legal rights. Moreover, even if I would have them, I never would take advantage of them - I hope, it is obvious to all. I speak about other. I have found out project braking on the computer. At once has looked at page of the status and on the main page of the project - there all is excellent. I have dug over all computer, have then got on forums and, having spent some hours, already at this forum have understood that it is not my problem. And such situation at tens thousand volunteers. The administration of the project has not considered necessary to spend 100 seconds for the message on the main page that the problem to it is known, dares, and to give the reference to a forum branch where it is discussed. And to take the minimum part in discussion. 120 seconds are opposed millions seconds and kilometres of nervous fibres. So who is haughty? And until now I observe scornful silence. And Deadline my 1500 not sent results comes nearer.
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Message 972870 - Posted: 21 Feb 2010, 18:49:29 UTC

people are upset because, by nature, we are competitive. if they want to stop the complaining about down time, then remove the WHOLE CREDIT SYSTEM completely. until then they have to listen to it.
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Message boards : Technical News : Out of the fire and into the pit of sulfuric acid. (Feb 19, 2010)

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