How about Forced Medical Insurance?


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Profile hiamps
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Message 957800 - Posted: 21 Dec 2009, 14:48:15 UTC

America looks like it may force people to buy medical insurance or fine them. That seems odd to me, as most people without it can't afford it. Then the other big problem with this as I see it is layoffs. I own a small business and I have actually been working away from my business to keep from laying anyone off before Christmas. Even though we are not forced to we do pay some of our employees health care, we also do not believe in only paying minimum wage. If this Health Care goes thru my Mother who is my Parner and bookkeeper says we will have no choice but to cut back and lay someone off. I see this happening in small business's all around America. Do others agree?
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Message 957833 - Posted: 21 Dec 2009, 16:28:32 UTC - in response to Message 957800.

America looks like it may force people to buy medical insurance or fine them. That seems odd to me, as most people without it can't afford it. Then the other big problem with this as I see it is layoffs. I own a small business and I have actually been working away from my business to keep from laying anyone off before Christmas. Even though we are not forced to we do pay some of our employees health care, we also do not believe in only paying minimum wage. If this Health Care goes thru my Mother who is my Parner and bookkeeper says we will have no choice but to cut back and lay someone off. I see this happening in small business's all around America. Do others agree?


???

Census data show that 46.6 million Americans were uninsured in 2005. Isn't Obama's new health bill going to provide state paid health care for these folks like we have in Canada?

I'm confused now. How can these folks be forced to buy something they can't afford?

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Message 957834 - Posted: 21 Dec 2009, 16:30:55 UTC - in response to Message 957833.

America looks like it may force people to buy medical insurance or fine them. That seems odd to me, as most people without it can't afford it. Then the other big problem with this as I see it is layoffs. I own a small business and I have actually been working away from my business to keep from laying anyone off before Christmas. Even though we are not forced to we do pay some of our employees health care, we also do not believe in only paying minimum wage. If this Health Care goes thru my Mother who is my Parner and bookkeeper says we will have no choice but to cut back and lay someone off. I see this happening in small business's all around America. Do others agree?


???

Census data show that 46.6 million Americans were uninsured in 2005. Isn't Obama's new health bill going to provide state paid health care for these folks like we have in Canada?

I'm confused now. How can these folks be forced to buy something they can't afford?

Polosi is counting on the fines to help pay for it? At least that is what I heard her say in an interview I watched. Polical correctness at it's worst.
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Message 957841 - Posted: 21 Dec 2009, 16:42:59 UTC - in response to Message 957834.



Census data show that 46.6 million Americans were uninsured in 2005. Isn't Obama's new health bill going to provide state paid health care for these folks like we have in Canada?

I'm confused now. How can these folks be forced to buy something they can't afford?

Polosi is counting on the fines to help pay for it? At least that is what I heard her say in an interview I watched. Political correctness at it's worst.


Well now you've blown my brains out - I thought Mrs. Pelosi voted to increase Medicare and Medicaid benefits and was voting for President Obama's health care reforms.

Thanks for the info...

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Message 957879 - Posted: 21 Dec 2009, 18:12:00 UTC - in response to Message 957841.
Last modified: 21 Dec 2009, 18:14:34 UTC



Census data show that 46.6 million Americans were uninsured in 2005. Isn't Obama's new health bill going to provide state paid health care for these folks like we have in Canada?

I'm confused now. How can these folks be forced to buy something they can't afford?

Polosi is counting on the fines to help pay for it? At least that is what I heard her say in an interview I watched. Political correctness at it's worst.


Well now you've blown my brains out - I thought Mrs. Pelosi voted to increase Medicare and Medicaid benefits and was voting for President Obama's health care reforms.

Thanks for the info...


What we have here is a fundamental misunderstanding of exactly what is being debated in Washington D.C. re: health care in the USA, coupled with an even bigger fundamental misunderstanding as to exactly what the problem with it is in the first place... (I will touch on these problems in a future post).

Yes, according to the text of the legislation that I have seen, people will be 'forced' to have insurance coverage or pay a 'fine' (read the fine as an additional tax) as hiamps states in the original post in this thread. Furthermore, employers will have to offer coverage if they meet certain qualifications (number of employees, etc.) or pay a 'fine' (again a tax). The idea behind these fines/taxes was to not only encourage more people to opt into health insurance (especially the young and healthy, thus lowering the average 'risk' per insured person in the risk pool), to encourage more employers to offer low-cost group plans, but also to use the money collected to help offset the cost of insuring the people that desired such coverage but could not afford it.

However, the glaring hole in this is that it will have much the opposite effect. The amount of the tax on businesses that do not provide coverage is in most cases *LESS* than the cost to the business of providing the coverage. Businesses, being profit-motivated, will drop existing coverage and just pay the tax, either adding greatly to the ranks of the uninsured, or forcing people into more expensive plans or cutting back on the amount of coverage just to get a lower premium (or both).

As to Niko's statement that I quoted, the current administration in Washington D.C. (both the executive branch and the Congress) just love to maintain the fiction that it will be 'budget-neutral' (a statement that the non-partisan Congressional Budget Office keeps contradicting, by the way, even WITH all the accounting trickery being used by Obama, Pelosi, Reid, and others). That is, that all the government outlays on this new program will be covered by cuts in service, new taxes/fees, and/or cost savings elsewhere. What is being discussed is not a Medicare (health care of elderly, retired persons administered by the Federal Govt.) increase, not only a cut in service that was already in the works before work on 'health care reform' began eariler this year (a 20% cut in the already abysmally low Medicare reimbursement to health care providers -- Medicare is going broke), but also *FURTHER* cuts.

Medicaid (a program for the poor people, administered and mostly funded by the various State governments) will undoubtedly suffer much the same fate. If you have loved ones dependent on either of these programs, be afraid. Be Very Afraid.
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Message 957881 - Posted: 21 Dec 2009, 18:20:04 UTC - in response to Message 957879.

MajorKong thank you for joining in, I think you are spot on and appreciate your input as I am mainly a headlines kind of person. Yet somehow they will get the masses to follow convincing them it is the best thing or that doing something crazy is better than nothing at all.
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Message 957898 - Posted: 21 Dec 2009, 19:31:58 UTC

My view of this whole health care bill is that it's payoff for a large group of people who contributed to the Democratic party in the 2008 election. These payoffs will be made with additional taxes or a larger national debit. Look at the winners, the trial lawyers, health care companies, insurance companies such as ARP and several congressional members who were payed well for their vote. The losers are the american public who will pay for it and suffer from limited health services.
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Message 957921 - Posted: 21 Dec 2009, 20:56:26 UTC - in response to Message 957898.

My view of this whole health care bill is that it's payoff for a large group of people who contributed to the Democratic party in the 2008 election. These payoffs will be made with additional taxes or a larger national debit. Look at the winners, the trial lawyers, health care companies, insurance companies such as ARP and several congressional members who were payed well for their vote. The losers are the american public who will pay for it and suffer from limited health services.


Odd how the Democrats will push this through in the face of the growing popularity of the Tea Party.

Seems like it is just a way to "get some" before they are forced out.

The mentality is strong in America's University system. We have many professors who work right up to tenure and then stop. Not all, but a vast majority do. Now, look at the educational history of our president and you will see where the mentality comes from.
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Message 958085 - Posted: 22 Dec 2009, 13:45:43 UTC

seems funny to me that people get rabid when you talk about universal health coverage. yet get even more rabid when you talk about how mandatory auto insurance is a gov't sponsored handout to the insurance companies. NAy they say its being responsible for ones possessions. Isn't ones health a much greater asset and possession than any rust bucket on the road today.
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Message 958117 - Posted: 22 Dec 2009, 16:59:02 UTC - in response to Message 958085.
Last modified: 22 Dec 2009, 17:13:38 UTC

seems funny to me that people get rabid when you talk about universal health coverage. yet get even more rabid when you talk about how mandatory auto insurance is a gov't sponsored handout to the insurance companies. NAy they say its being responsible for ones possessions. Isn't ones health a much greater asset and possession than any rust bucket on the road today.


Don't Americans feel weird that there is free medical care in Cuba - a country that America boycotted decades ago. Even University is free there.

Yeah I know that every kid doesn't own an X-box or iPod but I feel that maybe Education and Health Care are more important than material things...

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Message 958164 - Posted: 23 Dec 2009, 1:51:07 UTC - in response to Message 958117.

yes but you can't walk into a store and purchase an aspirin in Cuba. So there are some limitations to how great that country is
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Message 958171 - Posted: 23 Dec 2009, 2:14:51 UTC - in response to Message 958164.
Last modified: 23 Dec 2009, 2:36:17 UTC

yes but you can't walk into a store and purchase an aspirin in Cuba. So there are some limitations to how great that country is


Not totally true - you can walk into a state drug store and purchase the real thing - German made Bayer Aspirin for 1/10 the price that it sells for in Canada. This is scarce outside the bigger cities. Locals can still go the the hospitals for drugs that they need. The US embargo has hurt them, but they do import medicine from Europe and Canada. Of course there is also the Black Market. Apple computers and iPods are still somehow getting into Cuba!

My uncle owns a restaurant in downtown Havana so I get an endless supply of Hoyo de Monterrey cigars for $50 box :-)

About 15 years ago, a smoke shop chain in Toronto got busted for selling Cuban cigars to Americans through mail-order. He was doing $15,000 - $30,000 per month in sales. He was removing the Cuban bands and replacing them with Canadian and Honduras origin bands. The authorities estimate that they did this for at least 5 years.

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Message 958183 - Posted: 23 Dec 2009, 3:29:17 UTC

Niko, the problem in the US is that the insurance industry has become so big, that many members of Congress are beholden to them for enormous contributions. It's government corruption at its finest. As long as major corporations have the politicians in their pockets, no serious reforms of any kind will happen that will seriously impact their bottom lines.

This is why the richest and most powerful nation on Earth has health care and social safety nets that are second rate. The corporations come first. The people come a distant second.

Don't believe me? Look at the stock prices for the major health insurance companies. United Healthcare, Aetna, etc. They have gone up 20+% since the announcement was made that the idiots in Congress will not provide a government sponsored program to provide insurance to those who are self-employed or work for companies that were not required to provide coverage.

We are about to enact the biggest welfare program ever. For insurance companies.



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Message 958194 - Posted: 23 Dec 2009, 4:02:37 UTC - in response to Message 957800.

Have a sore throat? Obama will shove his healthcare down it and make it feel better, whether you want to or not.
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Message 958272 - Posted: 23 Dec 2009, 14:14:24 UTC - in response to Message 958171.

yes but you can't walk into a store and purchase an aspirin in Cuba. So there are some limitations to how great that country is


Not totally true - you can walk into a state drug store and purchase the real thing - German made Bayer Aspirin for 1/10 the price that it sells for in Canada. This is scarce outside the bigger cities. Locals can still go the the hospitals for drugs that they need. The US embargo has hurt them, but they do import medicine from Europe and Canada. Of course there is also the Black Market. Apple computers and iPods are still somehow getting into Cuba!

My uncle owns a restaurant in downtown Havana so I get an endless supply of Hoyo de Monterrey cigars for $50 box :-)

About 15 years ago, a smoke shop chain in Toronto got busted for selling Cuban cigars to Americans through mail-order. He was doing $15,000 - $30,000 per month in sales. He was removing the Cuban bands and replacing them with Canadian and Honduras origin bands. The authorities estimate that they did this for at least 5 years.


Freedom comes at a cost, which is capitalism. We have two extremes in government Socialism and Capitalism.
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Message 958345 - Posted: 23 Dec 2009, 23:01:58 UTC - in response to Message 958272.


Freedom comes at a cost, which is capitalism. We have two extremes in government Socialism and Capitalism.


My sister and her family may face bankruptcy if one of them gets sick because she lost her job and health insurance. Is this what you call freedom?

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Message 958363 - Posted: 24 Dec 2009, 1:07:10 UTC - in response to Message 958345.


Freedom comes at a cost, which is capitalism. We have two extremes in government Socialism and Capitalism.


My sister and her family may face bankruptcy if one of them gets sick because she lost her job and health insurance. Is this what you call freedom?

I call it heard mentality, or should that be lemmings over a cliff?

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Message 958381 - Posted: 24 Dec 2009, 2:11:57 UTC - in response to Message 958363.


Freedom comes at a cost, which is capitalism. We have two extremes in government Socialism and Capitalism.


My sister and her family may face bankruptcy if one of them gets sick because she lost her job and health insurance. Is this what you call freedom?

I call it heard mentality, or should that be lemmings over a cliff?


I'm not sure what Gary is trying to say about your very legitimate question rebest.
What do American citizens do when they have lost their job and their healthcare package?
I suppose they will have to pay the $200,000 hospital bill by dipping into their spare change.

Under the Universal Single Payer plan, such as we have in Canada, there would be no loss of coverage when a job is lost. No one will lose their home due to a bankruptcy caused by medical expenses in this country. NO ONE.

That isn't a herd mentality. It's a civil society that takes care of it's citizens when they need help the most.
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Message 958386 - Posted: 24 Dec 2009, 2:45:24 UTC - in response to Message 958381.

I believe you are under the mistaken assumption that the health care plan being passed by the US Senate tomorrow is a single payer plan. It isn't. I believe rebest knows this.
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Message 958416 - Posted: 24 Dec 2009, 4:12:53 UTC - in response to Message 958386.
Last modified: 24 Dec 2009, 4:21:59 UTC

I believe you are under the mistaken assumption that the health care plan being passed by the US Senate tomorrow is a single payer plan. It isn't. I believe rebest knows this.


Quite right. If you look lower in the thread, you'll see my impression of the Senate Plan. It's crap, to put it nicely.

So the choices are 1) we do nothing, accept the status quo, and wait another 30 years to try again; or 2) we pass the proposed plan - lame as it is - and spend the next 15 years fixing it.

At least the proposed plan eliminates exclusions for existing conditions and prohibits insurance companies from dropping people when they get sick.

The first US President to call for a health care reform was Roosevelt. Not Franklin, by the way. Teddy. We've been diddling with this for 100 years.
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