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Message 951948 - Posted: 3 Dec 2009, 14:03:25 UTC - in response to Message 951942.

Sigh. No Santa Clause. No Easter Bunny. No Great Pumpkin. And now this.

;o)


Don't fret - there are still Vampires and Werewolfs in your forests out there in BC :-)


And Bigfoot...son't forget Bigfoot!!!


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Message 951984 - Posted: 3 Dec 2009, 16:37:46 UTC - in response to Message 951942.

Sigh. No Santa Clause. No Easter Bunny. No Great Pumpkin. And now this.

;o)


Don't fret - there are still Vampires and Werewolfs in your forests out there in BC :-)


Wow! Join SETI one day and donate the next day. That's fast..must be a record.

Welcome and thanks for donating!

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Message 951987 - Posted: 3 Dec 2009, 16:51:23 UTC - in response to Message 951984.



Wow! Join SETI one day and donate the next day. That's fast..must be a record.

Welcome and thanks for donating!


Thanks! Just doing what I can to keep it alive and well. We got one fine BOINC project here...

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Message 951989 - Posted: 3 Dec 2009, 16:55:38 UTC - in response to Message 951987.
Last modified: 3 Dec 2009, 16:56:02 UTC



Wow! Join SETI one day and donate the next day. That's fast..must be a record.

Welcome and thanks for donating!


Thanks! Just doing what I can to keep it alive and well. We got one fine BOINC project here...

Thumbs (err...paws) up from the kitties to the wolf.

Welcome to the project.
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Message 952022 - Posted: 3 Dec 2009, 18:00:41 UTC - in response to Message 951930.

Some (most that Ive read) is not good publicity but it IS publicity.

As-if things (such as donations, etc) weren't uphill enough with just the dismissive "little green men" smears. Funny how one user out of 100,000 actives failing the ethics test can lead to bad publicity. Stuff like this can cement boinc into the commercial & enterprise malware checkers.

Personally, beyond any records subpoena (has Berkeley commented on if a subpoena was received?), I think the S@H mavens should take some distancing action. This is not kicking someone when they're down, or retribution for a black eye upon us all. But it is imporant to keep Boinc projects on the level and above reproach in legitimat academic and R&D endeavors. They should have done this in October.

#1. Either rename the NEZ account to "Higley USD" or outright delete it across the Boinc namespace (tombstoned appropriately so it waterfalls to all the stat collectors over the ensuing weeks). Why? Because NEZ didn't earn those credits, they belong to that school district.

#2. Limit accounts to a dozen active devices until a signed well worded hold-harmless release is received. Why? If Berkeley gets named in a lawsuit seeking damages (and using this case as an example, the lawyers for both the school district & Nez himself have probably considering it), then regardless of outcome, S@H would likely get shuttered as a nuisance magnet.

#2B. Conduct a DB audit to identify and then contact other possible nez's ... throttle down their task queues quickly to zero until they respond. Maybe even lose machine anonymity as an option after 100 devices.

#3. As WU's seems to be in short supply anyhow, might as well recycle the ones NEZ has in that anonymous task queue rather than wait the remaining 4 weeks for them to time out (get the era over with) ... I doubt Higley would mind.

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Message 952035 - Posted: 3 Dec 2009, 18:28:43 UTC

Were his activities known about by DA and seti.
Message 36895 on Beta message boards.
We had a reply on the BOINC_alpha mailing list. David Anderson deliberately allowed self-validation, because otherwise NEZ would have no-one to validate with - he does such a high proportion of all the Beta work.
Could be argued that as he and all other user’s on Beta were given the right to validate their own WU’s. That he was openly encouraged to continue his activities, and not requested to stop???
After all a simple lock on his account would have been sufficient. Although no doubt some would say that would probably go against freedom of speech.
IMHO anyone who can log 579,162,661 credits cannot be doing it on his own equipment even running 24/7/365. 400 million more than his nearest rival
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Message 952038 - Posted: 3 Dec 2009, 18:46:49 UTC

On Seti's main page.....under 'get started'....

1. Read our rules and policies.

The very first item is........



Run SETI@home only on authorized computers

Run SETI@home only on computers that you own, or for which you have obtained the owner's permission. Some companies and schools have policies that prohibit using their computers for projects such as SETI@home.
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Message 952050 - Posted: 3 Dec 2009, 19:14:30 UTC - in response to Message 952022.

Some (most that Ive read) is not good publicity but it IS publicity.

<snip>
#2. Limit accounts to a dozen active devices until a signed well worded hold-harmless release is received. Why? If Berkeley gets named in a lawsuit seeking damages (and using this case as an example, the lawyers for both the school district & Nez himself have probably considering it), then regardless of outcome, S@H would likely get shuttered as a nuisance magnet.
<snip>


And what about someone like me? I have 14 PCs that I currently run...6 at work and 8 at home...and my hosts list at BOINCStats lists 34 hosts...will I need "a signed well worded hold-harmless release"??

If you read the rules, it states to only run it on PCs you are authorized to do so...simple and plain English...if you don't have permission, don't do it. I guess I still beleive in the honor system...and BOINC is a test of that system...
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Message 952054 - Posted: 3 Dec 2009, 19:22:56 UTC

And now the reason I'm seriously thinking of starting creditwhore@home comes to post in this thread.

Every time you run the installer, you have to change the check box from I don't agree to I do agree. That is a valid signature on a contract.

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Message 952058 - Posted: 3 Dec 2009, 19:39:55 UTC - in response to Message 952050.
Last modified: 3 Dec 2009, 19:59:59 UTC

If you read the rules


I've read and follow the rules, I'm not Nez (but maybe he read the rules as they existed in Feb 2000 and felt only that applied to him).

My point is an irresponsible and/or unethical user can put this ENTIRE project at fiscal & reputation risk. Quoting eulas does nothing to meaningfully protect Berkeley. Plenty of lawsuits that defy common sense and written warnings succeed none-the-less (no matter how frivilous and meritless it is to us here in the forum). Read the StellaAwards someday. Here are a few.

So maybe, just maybe, rather than brush it off to bad self-enforcement, the project mavens should use that masterful scientific & logistic DB that clearly could be used to pinpoint a probable problem list of EULA abusers. Seems like a good use of a week to me if it helps protect Berkeley. ... then get a few of the forum folks here to monitor it moving forward.


And what about someone like me?


Yes, you get to sign a hold harmless. If you don't wish to, then only the first 12 machines retain their enlistment.

A reasonable line in the sand should be drawn. People can still get fired for running Boinc on even 1 corporate asset, and I totally agree that this isn't our problem, but when someone has a dozen machines (or 2500) and no one here questions it, hell, we're just turning our head the other way thus we fail the common sense test.

-- Edit --
Every time you run the installer


People who have a few machines run the installers. People who have hundreds or thousands use other silent means. Doesn't matter, clearly Nez was intentionally oblivious to the spirit and wisdom of the eula.

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Message 952059 - Posted: 3 Dec 2009, 19:41:20 UTC - in response to Message 952054.

I wonder what the Boone Community School District - Iowa's thoughts are on this whole issue. Or BOG's thoughts.

#3 on the total credit list http://setiathome.berkeley.edu/show_user.php?userid=110


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Message 952064 - Posted: 3 Dec 2009, 20:09:51 UTC - in response to Message 952059.

I wonder what the Boone Community School District - Iowa's thoughts are on this whole issue. Or BOG's thoughts.

#3 on the total credit list http://setiathome.berkeley.edu/show_user.php?userid=110

Well the team page has a school logo. a link to the school as its web page and 43 members many at least of whom could well be pupils.

I think by associating that user and school publicly with any controversy without really good evidence to back up your assertions you are doing them a disservice.

Have you attempted to communicate with BOG via PM before posting?

Have you contacted the school to ask them about this before mentioning them here?

Have you figures about how many schools actually do organise contributions to seti@home as part of their IT studies?

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Message 952077 - Posted: 3 Dec 2009, 21:01:28 UTC - in response to Message 952058.

If you read the rules


I've read and follow the rules, I'm not Nez (but maybe he read the rules as they existed in Feb 2000 and felt only that applied to him).

My point is an irresponsible and/or unethical user can put this ENTIRE project at fiscal & reputation risk. Quoting eulas does nothing to meaningfully protect Berkeley. Plenty of lawsuits that defy common sense and written warnings succeed none-the-less (no matter how frivilous and meritless it is to us here in the forum). Read the StellaAwards someday. Here are a few.

So maybe, just maybe, rather than brush it off to bad self-enforcement, the project mavens should use that masterful scientific & logistic DB that clearly could be used to pinpoint a probable problem list of EULA abusers. Seems like a good use of a week to me if it helps protect Berkeley. ... then get a few of the forum folks here to monitor it moving forward.


And what about someone like me?


Yes, you get to sign a hold harmless. If you don't wish to, then only the first 12 machines retain their enlistment.

A reasonable line in the sand should be drawn. People can still get fired for running Boinc on even 1 corporate asset, and I totally agree that this isn't our problem, but when someone has a dozen machines (or 2500) and no one here questions it, hell, we're just turning our head the other way thus we fail the common sense test.

-- Edit --
Every time you run the installer


People who have a few machines run the installers. People who have hundreds or thousands use other silent means. Doesn't matter, clearly Nez was intentionally oblivious to the spirit and wisdom of the eula.


Glad the people at Seti aren't as paranoid as you. The rules were the same all the way back in 1999.
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Message 952081 - Posted: 3 Dec 2009, 21:29:59 UTC - in response to Message 952064.

I wonder what the Boone Community School District - Iowa's thoughts are on this whole issue. Or BOG's thoughts.

#3 on the total credit list http://setiathome.berkeley.edu/show_user.php?userid=110

Well the team page has a school logo. a link to the school as its web page and 43 members many at least of whom could well be pupils.

I think by associating that user and school publicly with any controversy without really good evidence to back up your assertions you are doing them a disservice.

Have you attempted to communicate with BOG via PM before posting?

Have you contacted the school to ask them about this before mentioning them here?

Have you figures about how many schools actually do organise contributions to seti@home as part of their IT studies?


My point (or thoughts really) are not of the negative nature. My feeling on this whole thing is that Brad is being ousted and seti is the scapegoat. Do I have proof? No. Just my opinion. BOG and the the Boone Community School District Seems to be proud of there involvement but only by the presentation of the team page and logo. I have no proof of anything and really only have an opinion. Please dont get me wrong here. The rules are right and I dont disagree. I to use work computers and do have permission. Written? No. Verbal? Yes. Am I going to get written permission now because of this? No. I wouldn't disrespect the integrity my boss and I share where when a verbal agreement is made it is honored and by asking him for a written agreement would put a wedge into a good working relationship. This is small potatoes compared to the resources Brad had but the original relationships when he started may have been that way. We can all point to whats in the media and make assumptions as to blame but the reality is we will never know the whole story. What I find distasteful is the media bashing about the work seti/boinc/Berkeley is doing and I would like to hear from a Group that is on board and understands the DC world and supports it, like the Boone Community School District and BOG seem to.
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Message 952082 - Posted: 3 Dec 2009, 21:35:57 UTC - in response to Message 952077.

If you read the rules


I've read and follow the rules, I'm not Nez (but maybe he read the rules as they existed in Feb 2000 and felt only that applied to him).

My point is an irresponsible and/or unethical user can put this ENTIRE project at fiscal & reputation risk. Quoting eulas does nothing to meaningfully protect Berkeley. Plenty of lawsuits that defy common sense and written warnings succeed none-the-less (no matter how frivilous and meritless it is to us here in the forum). Read the StellaAwards someday. Here are a few.

So maybe, just maybe, rather than brush it off to bad self-enforcement, the project mavens should use that masterful scientific & logistic DB that clearly could be used to pinpoint a probable problem list of EULA abusers. Seems like a good use of a week to me if it helps protect Berkeley. ... then get a few of the forum folks here to monitor it moving forward.


And what about someone like me?


Yes, you get to sign a hold harmless. If you don't wish to, then only the first 12 machines retain their enlistment.

A reasonable line in the sand should be drawn. People can still get fired for running Boinc on even 1 corporate asset, and I totally agree that this isn't our problem, but when someone has a dozen machines (or 2500) and no one here questions it, hell, we're just turning our head the other way thus we fail the common sense test.

-- Edit --
Every time you run the installer


People who have a few machines run the installers. People who have hundreds or thousands use other silent means. Doesn't matter, clearly Nez was intentionally oblivious to the spirit and wisdom of the eula.


Glad the people at Seti aren't as paranoid as you. The rules were the same all the way back in 1999.

Yes they [rules] were. And it appears in 1999 someone had full permission. When new people came in permission was revoked retroactively. Politics.

Now as to what we should do, we should contact the advertisers on the sites that are not reporting the story fairly and tell those advertisers we are going to boycott them for supporting yellow journalism. Best thing we can do for the project and the world at large.

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Message 952089 - Posted: 3 Dec 2009, 22:06:40 UTC

Hiya 52 Aces, your no 2.....hmmmmmmmmmmmmm, i suppose i better authorise myself with my 50 rigs....before i get locked out.....

I'm a smb with boinc on some, not all, cusdtomers rigs, & authorised....Some have even asked to have it installed........hhmmmmmmmmmm, better get it writing i suppose......
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Message 952092 - Posted: 3 Dec 2009, 22:09:43 UTC - in response to Message 952077.
Last modified: 3 Dec 2009, 22:32:51 UTC

Glad the people at Seti aren't as paranoid as you. The rules were the same all the way back in 1999.


Nice, lets just hope they have a higher IQ than your last statement implies :-)

Those Rules come from the Boinc project template. Not S@H. That's why they're so identical across Einstein, Malaria, SIMAP, etc, etc, etc. We're talking about info.php, by the way. Remind me again when boinc proper shipped? How about Seti Classic? Here is the source.

Additionally, none of these rules are presented as part of installing Boinc. Nor are they presented when enlisting in S@H. Nor are they viewable from the UI or even copied to your local HD (\docs). You *ONLY* see them if you happen to click on the link from the website. This is a liability attorney's dream come true, Nez can argue he was never warned by S@H or Boinc (although he was warned by his employer and they've documented that fact).

Back to the main point, the S@H mavens should strongly consider identifying some of the other Nez's out there, or we might not have a project to enjoy in the future (and I do encourage renaming his ID to the proper credit underwriter, in this case Higley USD). Sure, the boinc folks should be involved since they own the template from which all the other projects originate (but I don't care if the other projects shut down), but they don't own the S@H data per se.

Cheers

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Message 952093 - Posted: 3 Dec 2009, 22:17:12 UTC - in response to Message 952092.

Back to the main point, the S@H mavens need to be active on identifying some of the rule violators,

If they search then and only then do they become liable. They must not search.

or we won't have a project to enjoy in the future. Sure, the boinc folks should be involved since they own the template from which all the other projects originate (but I don't care if the other projects shut down), but they don't own the S@H data per se.

Cheers

What's your bar number?

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Message 952097 - Posted: 3 Dec 2009, 22:26:52 UTC - in response to Message 952093.
Last modified: 3 Dec 2009, 22:30:15 UTC

If they search then and only then do they become liable. They must not search.

Yes, I hear you 100%, and I understand. It cringes my ethos, but I understand. It's like good citizens walking by ignoring kids spray painting the walls. If Nez 'attempts' to sue his former employer, I wouldn't be surprised if Boinc gets dragged into it somehow, and the Regents at Berkeley won't be pleased.

What's your bar number?

I dart pulled a low number of a dozen (12) as being statistically probably that work assets are involved. Logic being, how many people at home run a dozen machines... the avg enlistment in Boinc per ID is 2.2 machines I think. And for those who do run 12 or more machines at home, fine, sign the hold harmless.

---[Edit]---

I guess the point of 12 is it also probably covers +99% of S@H crunchers. It's the guy who zombies 50, 500, 5000 machines that stains the project and should be sleuthed out. The guy who violates on just 1 box is no different than a guy running World Of Warcraft at work.

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Message 952105 - Posted: 3 Dec 2009, 22:55:16 UTC - in response to Message 952092.

Glad the people at Seti aren't as paranoid as you. The rules were the same all the way back in 1999.


Nice, lets just hope they have a higher IQ than your last statement implies :-)

Those Rules come from the Boinc project template. Not S@H. That's why they're so identical across Einstein, Malaria, SIMAP, etc, etc, etc. We're talking about info.php, by the way. Remind me again when boinc proper shipped? How about Seti Classic? Here is the source.

Additionally, none of these rules are presented as part of installing Boinc. Nor are they presented when enlisting in S@H. Nor are they viewable from the UI or even copied to your local HD (\docs). You *ONLY* see them if you happen to click on the link from the website. This is a liability attorney's dream come true, Nez can argue he was never warned by S@H or Boinc (although he was warned by his employer and they've documented that fact).

Back to the main point, the S@H mavens should strongly consider identifying some of the other Nez's out there, or we might not have a project to enjoy in the future (and I do encourage renaming his ID to the proper credit underwriter, in this case Higley USD). Sure, the boinc folks should be involved since they own the template from which all the other projects originate (but I don't care if the other projects shut down), but they don't own the S@H data per se.

Cheers

On the main point, I wouldn't be too hasty and try to rename Nez's account to Higley USD as Higley USD could object to someone other than You or Me or some like US from using their name or even associating their name with Boinc or a Boinc project(Not that there is anything wrong with doing so), But It is their name and They should have the right to accept or decline the name change first.
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