If fire insurance were like health insurance.


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zpm
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Message 921579 - Posted: 27 Jul 2009, 0:28:00 UTC - in response to Message 921572.

I only had red fire extinguishers. Yellow is apparently required.



LOL! don't forget the green ones too...

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Message 921690 - Posted: 27 Jul 2009, 16:53:36 UTC - in response to Message 921579.

I get really tired of all the excuses doctors have for their standard of living, in Canada, and elsewhere. There are lots of us, like Eric and myself, who spent a lot of time and money in school to advance our careers, and have benefited society as a result. (Well, probably more Eric than me.)

I don't buy that old line about "lives in our hands" either. How much did they pay the last guy who worked on the elevator you're about to ride in?

Like anything else in a free or semi-free marketplace, doctors charge that much because they can get away with it.
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Message 921694 - Posted: 27 Jul 2009, 17:28:37 UTC - in response to Message 921572.

I only had red fire extinguishers. Yellow is apparently required.


Yup! Always stick with the yellow one's!


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Message 921726 - Posted: 27 Jul 2009, 18:54:30 UTC

The issue of compensation rates for doctors is a blind alley. It sidetracks discussion and diverts attention from just who is really profiting from healthcare in the hands of private insurers.
There are no doctors raking in bundles of cash at the levels achieved by those at the top of the corporations controlling healthcare in the states.

Healthcare is a right, not a damned privilege.
There are many well financed lobby efforts aimed at protecting the profits of corporate healthcare.
These lobbyists, speaking on behalf of the profiteers, have derailed government run universal single payer and removed it from the table as an option in the healthcare reform talks.

I don't know when or how they got to Obama, but they did.
It's up to each individual to write or phone their elected representative and make it very clear that the health for profit system must be abandoned for the common good of the citizens of the United States.
Congress needs to hear the voices of many citizens as quickly as possible to shoot down the list of options being suggested by those who profit from your health emergencies.

This bastardized, watered down garbage being presented as a viable option should be deemed by all as unacceptable and pressure needs to be applied by citizens to get the healthcare they need and deserve.

Every American citizen needs to start thinking of healthcare as a basic human right.
The way we treat the weakest amongst us is a reflection of our society.
Don't allow the pigs to remain at the trough to further gorge themselves on something that is too important to be allowed to remain in the hands of profiteers.

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Message 921932 - Posted: 28 Jul 2009, 11:59:20 UTC - in response to Message 921726.


Healthcare is a right, not a damned privilege.

There are many well financed lobby efforts aimed at protecting the profits of corporate healthcare.

The way we treat the weakest amongst us is a reflection of our society.


We are a society of people, who live on the earth together. None of us are perfect, but too often, we stop thinking beyond ourselves too much.

I agree that how we treat others around us is a reflection of our society.

I disagree that we should hand over the duty of taking care of "the weakest" to government. In the end, it's the responsibility of us all to take care of others.

And I'm tired of blaming "the evil corporate entities" as the problem. They are part of the problem. But it's also a problem of believing that folks that take responsibility for themselves, build a business or trade, and then are taxed at a high rate BECAUSE THEY ARE SUCCESSFUL should pay for anyone who "can't afford healthcare". I'm willing to pay my share, but that share shouldn't be any more than anyone else, including the "middle class". So put a 1% (or whatever percentage fits here) tax on everyone's income (including Congress!) to pay for a better way in healthcare.

Note: I'm not in the healthcare industry, but have been dealing with it for over 40 years. I don't make over $200,000 or whatever number is considered "rich" these days.

I'm tired of the politicians trying to spend the $ I send to the government...
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Message 922027 - Posted: 29 Jul 2009, 1:53:45 UTC - in response to Message 921932.

Progressive taxation is an entirely different issue than health care.

IMHO, a progressive tax system recognizes that the marginal value of a dollar is much less to someone who makes a lot of them than it is to someone who makes minimum wage. Rather than worrying about making sure everyone pays an equal percentage, I'd rather have a tax code that makes sure that taxes cause everyone an equal amount of pain (and that the amount of pain caused be as low as possible while still providing the service a civil society requires).

Right now I'd guess the 12% Federal Income Tax that a single person making minimum wage full time (~$14,500) pays hurts a whole lot more than the 13.5% that Angela and I ended up paying last year, even though our 13.5% was a much larger number in total dollars.

Eric


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Message 922031 - Posted: 29 Jul 2009, 2:25:58 UTC - in response to Message 922027.

Careful Eric, I hear that it is hard for socialists to get government funding where you live.
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Message 922072 - Posted: 29 Jul 2009, 7:49:23 UTC - in response to Message 921932.




I disagree that we should hand over the duty of taking care of "the weakest" to government. In the end, it's the responsibility of us all to take care of others.



The government is all of us. It is our collective will that allows government to exist.
It's also true, in spite of what libertarian thought and corporatists tell us, one of the things government can do very well is take care of those in need.

The notion mentioned in the quote above sounds quite reasonable if one doesn't take a moment to think it through.
Only government has the resources and infrastructure to deliver aid evenly throughout the country.
If an entire city becomes economically stressed, say Detroit or Flint Michigan, due to the greed of an industry moving manufacturing overseas, everyone is affected. Therefore, less disposable income means less aid to others within the area.
People aren't likely to send donations across the continent to help out when there are local needs to be taken care of where they live.

Only through government can we ensure help for all who need it.

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Message 922097 - Posted: 29 Jul 2009, 12:01:21 UTC - in response to Message 922072.

I disagree that we should hand over the duty of taking care of "the weakest" to government. In the end, it's the responsibility of us all to take care of others.

The government is all of us. It is our collective will that allows government to exist.


Well said!

Perhaps a government in a libertarian society could just send people the names of the "weakest" that they are directly responsible for. Along with their medical bills.
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Message 922124 - Posted: 29 Jul 2009, 13:39:40 UTC - in response to Message 922072.

It's also true, in spite of what libertarian thought and corporatists tell us, one of the things government can do very well is take care of those in need.


Try telling that to the Hurricane Katrina victims.
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Message 922133 - Posted: 29 Jul 2009, 14:14:19 UTC - in response to Message 922124.

It's also true, in spite of what libertarian thought and corporatists tell us, one of the things government can do very well is take care of those in need.


Try telling that to the Hurricane Katrina victims.


Emphasis added in first quote. Governments are run by people and thus prone to failures and mistakes. Unless somebody has a better solution, this just means you need to constantly monitor and correct your government. The big advantage a true democracy has over other forms of government is the ability to do this.
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Message 922136 - Posted: 29 Jul 2009, 14:21:28 UTC - in response to Message 922133.

It's also true, in spite of what libertarian thought and corporatists tell us, one of the things government can do very well is take care of those in need.


Try telling that to the Hurricane Katrina victims.


Emphasis added in first quote. Governments are run by people and thus prone to failures and mistakes. Unless somebody has a better solution, this just means you need to constantly monitor and correct your government. The big advantage a true democracy has over other forms of government is the ability to do this.


Of course they can do it very well, but mistakes like Katrina shouldn't have happened and are inexcusable. If they can't even do that, then what makes you think anyone should trust them further? I could bring up several other examples of bad government to prove that they aren't just mistakes or human error, and that Katrina isn't just an isolated incident, but I hope I don't need to go there to prove my point.
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Message 922142 - Posted: 29 Jul 2009, 14:55:33 UTC - in response to Message 922136.
Last modified: 29 Jul 2009, 14:56:19 UTC

So what alternatives to governments handling natural disasters (etc.) do you propose? What are their track records?

Yes, governments suck many times, and really suck once in a while. But what are the choices?
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Message 922160 - Posted: 29 Jul 2009, 16:10:57 UTC - in response to Message 922124.

It's also true, in spite of what libertarian thought and corporatists tell us, one of the things government can do very well is take care of those in need.


Try telling that to the Hurricane Katrina victims.


Well part of the problem there was the Bush administration disassembling the existing government operated disaster response system and replacing it with private contractors that weren't really qualified or capable of doing the same job. For example the job of dispatching relief supplies went from the National Emergency Operations Center to one person who wasn't available 24/7. That policy was due to political leaders taking the concept that "the private sector can always do things better than government" as an article of faith.

From a 2004 (pre-Katrina) article entitled "A Disaster Waiting to Happen":

In June, Pleasant Mann, a 16-year FEMA veteran who heads the agency's government employee union, wrote members of Congress to warn of the agency's decay. "Over the past three-and-one-half years, FEMA has gone from being a model agency to being one where funds are being misspent, employee morale has fallen, and our nation's emergency management capability is being eroded," he wrote. "Our professional staff are being systematically replaced by politically connected novices and contractors."


President Reagan was famous for saying that the most frightening phrase in the English language is "I'm from the government and I here to help." A more frightening phrase is "I'm from the insurance company and I'm here to find a reason to deny you the coverage you paid for."

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Message 922162 - Posted: 29 Jul 2009, 16:17:25 UTC - in response to Message 921726.



Healthcare is a right, not a damned privilege
.


Let me add the republican perspective. Since I believe the U.S. has not totally converted to socialism.

You are right,healthcare is not a privilege,it is a LUXURY! In a capitalist society it is not up to ME to pay for anyones healthcare but myself and my family's,And I have a hard enough time doing that.It might sound cold,but I believe grown-ups should pretty much take care of themselves.

I also believe anything government can do,private industry can do better,cheaper,faster.


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Message 922245 - Posted: 29 Jul 2009, 22:32:30 UTC

When advocates of privatization are elected to public office, they bring their ideologies with them.
The first thing they do is put people who agree with that philosophy into top government agencies.
The next step is to run the department into the ground while spouting off that government can't compete.
Some of the reactionary crowd in the general public and those not paying attention to the timelines and histories actually buy this garbage.

There are no magic employees in the private sector.
There are no supermen in the private sector.

The only reason this myth is perpetuated is that corporate profiteers see a chance to further suck public monies from government coffers.

Private over public is all bull$#!+

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Message 922276 - Posted: 29 Jul 2009, 23:40:52 UTC - in response to Message 922245.

That's your opion and you have the right to it. I have seen 1'st hand the private sector doing it better,road construction comes to mind off the top of my head. Low bidder is accepted and everyone prospers because of COMPETITION.Not a lot of competition in government. Try waiting in line in this country to get your drivers license renewed or even mail something, the indifference and apathy are quite infuriating.I also notice the maple leaf on your flag. Not to sterotype, but just the opion I would have expected.

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Message 922290 - Posted: 30 Jul 2009, 0:09:36 UTC - in response to Message 922276.

at least Canadians vote more often than Americans! And you must remember that Canada has 4 Providences and their system is built different....
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Message 922308 - Posted: 30 Jul 2009, 0:57:07 UTC - in response to Message 922276.


I also believe anything government can do,private industry can do better,cheaper,faster.


You can believe it, but that doesn't make it true. With health care, private industry has shown pretty conclusively that it cannot do it better, cheaper or faster. We spend more money on health care than most other first world countries and have worse outcomes. Private insurers will spend $30 to keep from having to pay for $10 worth of care. The reason that conservatives don't want a public option for health care is that they know it will be more affordable than private insurance, and people will use it. It was the shift from a primarily non-profit to a for-profit health care system that got us into this mess in the first place. (Even many of the current health care "non-profits" are just hiding profits.)

That's your opion and you have the right to it. I have seen 1'st hand the private sector doing it better,road construction comes to mind off the top of my head. Low bidder is accepted and everyone prospers because of COMPETITION.


And five years later, when the road needs to be redone because the low bidder didn't follow the specification for the road bed, a new low bidder will be found. When the SSL addition was built, the low bidder cut a few corners, like under-sizing the wire gauge while keeping the high current fuses. Can you say fire danger? The desire to be the low bidder often results in contractors deliberately using substandard materials or doing a half-assed job. And some conservatives have pushed through laws that have made it harder to choose anybody but the low bidder, even if they are on trial for the corners they cut on their last job.

And I wonder where the money for road construction comes from?


Try waiting in line in this country to get your drivers license renewed or even mail something, the indifference and apathy are quite infuriating.


When I try to mail something, I print an online address label and hand it to a postal carrier without waiting in line. When I renew my driver's license it is done by mail. I think it is nothing short of incredible that I can send a physical object a distance of 2600 miles in three days at a cost of 44 cents. FedEx will do the same thing for only $13.33. Is that better, cheaper and faster? I can't even send a fax at FedEx for 44 cents. Would you rather the Post Office be privatized so it can charge whatever the market will bear? Get ready for the $10 stamp.

If you want indifference and apathy, try to get help finding an item at Macy's. If you want to wait in a line, try to buy something there. But they are the only department store that is left on this side of the country, so they don't need to provide service. That's one reason why I shop online.

I'm not saying that government does everything better. I'm just saying that profit motive can be an impediment to efficiency and lower costs. Unless you consider making sure that sick people can't get care to be an efficiency booster.


I also notice the maple leaf on your flag. Not to sterotype, but just the opion I would have expected.


I note that he doesn't seem too unhappy with his health care system.

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Message 922456 - Posted: 30 Jul 2009, 16:06:12 UTC - in response to Message 922308.

I think we can agree to disagree.
If you make an oop's, and your license expires on your bithday, you do have to wait in line, but that was my fault. I still did not expect rude service but that is what I got. As far as macy's goes, I have never received anything but prompt cheerfull service, but then they are one of about eight large dept. stores in the Minneapolis area. Fed Ex? My sister-in-law recently sent a box from San Antonio, it was on my front porch in Minneapolis the next mourning less than 20 hours later. I do not believe the U.S.P.S. is currently capable of that. I will grant you they are good at what they do.

I do believe that people who have been laid-off due to bad economic times should be allowed to continue thier health coverage at less than a million dollars a month. As for all the other people, the ones who are habitual welfare recipients, who have more kids to get a bigger check, no, it is not up to me to support them and I would cut them off immediately.

The whole idea of socialized medical care goes against my grain. As I stated previously, I think grown-ups should pretty much take care of themselves.

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