Teenager Shot by Vigilante


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Profile StormKing
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Message 888774 - Posted: 27 Apr 2009, 14:14:13 UTC - in response to Message 888747.
Last modified: 27 Apr 2009, 14:14:28 UTC

British law on Citizen's Arrest
Private gun ownership should be one of the hardest things possible to achieve. It should never be a "right" and certainly is not permitted under the US Constitution unless you bend one phrase so far as to persuade the law enforcement process that this is the case.


It is a right guanranteed by the 2nd amendment of the constitution.

US citizens who live by the gun have an appalling tendency both to deal death and to die by the gun. How many more have to die in this way before the truth hits you with magnum force?


Increased concealed carry has been showed to decrease crime.

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Message 888787 - Posted: 27 Apr 2009, 15:16:14 UTC - in response to Message 888774.

Please quote what it actually says in the 2nd amendment. Then think about it.

Increased guns reduces gun crime, huh? I remember the case of a lost Englishman who was trying to get directions in your lawless land and was shot by an idiot through the house door. Needless to say American law got the trigger-happy maniac householder off.

Gun crime is clearly the fault of the person who gets shot, therefore the result is not a crime.

Total, absolute and utter lunacy. No need to requote the British figures for gun crime because they must be wrong, I guess.

Come on, the presence of guns both causes and increases gun crime. Without guns, no gun crime. QED.
Logic never was the strong point of the US gun lobby.

Do you want to extend the rule of the vigilante back to the days of lynchings too? I fail to see an effective difference.
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Message 888793 - Posted: 27 Apr 2009, 15:46:48 UTC - in response to Message 888774.

British law on Citizen's Arrest
Private gun ownership should be one of the hardest things possible to achieve. It should never be a "right" and certainly is not permitted under the US Constitution unless you bend one phrase so far as to persuade the law enforcement process that this is the case.


It is a right guanranteed by the 2nd amendment of the constitution.

US citizens who live by the gun have an appalling tendency both to deal death and to die by the gun. How many more have to die in this way before the truth hits you with magnum force?


Increased concealed carry has been showed to decrease crime.

Concealed carry laws are overrated. you can basically take your weapon with you to your car and drive around. YOu aren't allowed to take the weapon into any store or other insitution that posts signs declaring no weapons allowed. So basically the concealed weapon law allows you to go hunting.
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Message 888795 - Posted: 27 Apr 2009, 15:58:42 UTC

Amendment II

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.


The amendment clearly states "A well regulated militia".
I find no reference to Batman wanna-be's.

This amendment is not meant to allow the people as individuals the "right...to keep and bear arms", rather it is intended to permit entities such as the National Guard on behalf of the people to keep and bear arms.

Individual citizens certainly do not constitute a well regulated militia.
They do, however, constitute a well armed mob.

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Message 888800 - Posted: 27 Apr 2009, 16:17:31 UTC - in response to Message 888795.

Amendment II

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.


The amendment clearly states "A well regulated militia".
I find no reference to Batman wanna-be's.

This amendment is not meant to allow the people as individuals the "right...to keep and bear arms", rather it is intended to permit entities such as the National Guard on behalf of the people to keep and bear arms.

Individual citizens certainly do not constitute a well regulated militia.
They do, however, constitute a well armed mob.

Not that I agree with the self proclaimed militia groups in America. BUt it seems that when people form groups that involve weapons, other than the NRA, and call themselves a Militia they are hounded by state, local, and federal officials for everything from theft to inciting rebellion. It seems the gov't has no problem with individual arms, but deplored the idea of an organized group that forms, follows laws governing weapons, and uses their first amendment rights.

as far as the Batman wannabes go, that's about all a concealed carry law allows. There is no eveidence that C/C has done anything to decrease any crime statistic.
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Message 888805 - Posted: 27 Apr 2009, 16:37:37 UTC

That's why I said the National Guard when speaking of a well regulated militia.

A bunch of beer buzzed kookoo's in the woods wearing cammo and armed to the teeth is not my idea of a well regulated militia.

But it is what you end up with when the second amendment is misinterpreted and allowed to apply to individuals.

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Message 888806 - Posted: 27 Apr 2009, 16:51:27 UTC - in response to Message 888805.
Last modified: 27 Apr 2009, 16:53:02 UTC

thats also one area of the constitution that demands regulation upon someone or something. They knew without regulating a militia it would be little more than guys in cammo eating old MRE's in the woods making up stories about how glorious their career in the military was.
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Message 888865 - Posted: 27 Apr 2009, 19:39:36 UTC - in response to Message 888805.

That's why I said the National Guard when speaking of a well regulated militia.

A bunch of beer buzzed kookoo's in the woods wearing cammo and armed to the teeth is not my idea of a well regulated militia.

But it is what you end up with when the second amendment is misinterpreted and allowed to apply to individuals.

militia |məˈli sh ə|
noun
all able-bodied civilians eligible by law for military service.


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Message 889014 - Posted: 28 Apr 2009, 1:43:32 UTC
Last modified: 28 Apr 2009, 1:47:58 UTC

Interesting interpretation of the meaning.

My dictionary says:
a body of citizens enrolled in military service but serving full time only in emergencies.

This fits the meaning and intent of the term "well regulated militia" somewhat better.

I would feel safer in the knowledge that the people carrying weapons in the streets were trained and professional, with training in law and training in how to deal with various situations.

Your version offers us pick-up trucks with a dozen drunken Bubbas riding in the back shooting out the street lights.

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Message 889086 - Posted: 28 Apr 2009, 6:02:13 UTC - in response to Message 889014.

Interesting interpretation of the meaning.

My dictionary says:
a body of citizens enrolled in military service but serving full time only in emergencies.

Only know what the New Oxford American Dictionary says, "all able-bodied civilians eligible by law for military service." Merriam-Webster says, "the whole body of able-bodied male citizens declared by law as being subject to call to military service." I'm also confident Publius would agree. It also seems as if SCOTUS is leaning that way.

Yes, it does seem to mean any citizen who is over the age of majority and not a felon. It isn't the fault of the Constitution that the individual states haven't bothered to regulate their citizens as a whole. They could of course and then the well regulated part would have meaning. However they still have the requirement that just about everyone must be allowed to join.

Oh, it can't include Bubba shooting out streetlights. That would get Bubba a felony conviction for vandalism. Robert, I hope you get to meet a real Bubba real soon, have him move in for a couple of weeks. You might find out your stereotypes are a bit out of sync with reality. I'm also surprised you haven't compared the shooter to Paul Kersey yet, but maybe you have a thing for Bruce Wayne. America isn't what you see coming from Hollywood.

I think what must cheese off some people is the Second Amendment presupposes that a person is responsible enough to have self control absent some government central planning committee.

Anyway we drift from the fact that in America you can defend your neighbor's property rights. And in America you can defend yourself when criminals charge you intent on committing great bodily harm and place you in fear for your life.

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Message 889120 - Posted: 28 Apr 2009, 10:49:30 UTC - in response to Message 889086.

Anyway we drift from the fact that in America you can defend your neighbor's property rights. And in America you can defend yourself when criminals charge you intent on committing great bodily harm and place you in fear for your life.

At least in this case you apparently cannot do that - surely the whole point?

America isn't what you see coming from Hollywood.

Maybe not but America in the news sure seems to try its best to live up to it. Hence your appalling rate of gun crime, the Ramboesque campaigns in Iraq, Somalia, Cuba, Viet Nam, Cambodia, (need I go on?) plus the bullying posturing shown to other nations the world over.

Oscar Wilde was wrong. He reckoned the USA was the only nation to have passed from barbarism to decadence without an intervening period of civilisation.
With your incredible lust for violence and mass gun crime I do not believe you ever got past the first stage. For the sake of the world, grow up and leave your toys in an armoury of childhood.

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Message 889130 - Posted: 28 Apr 2009, 11:24:30 UTC - in response to Message 889120.

With your incredible lust for violence and mass gun crime I do not believe you ever got past the first stage.


Funny how no one seemed to think this of the US while they were in the UK and Europe during WW2....


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Message 889152 - Posted: 28 Apr 2009, 12:55:13 UTC - in response to Message 889130.

With your incredible lust for violence and mass gun crime I do not believe you ever got past the first stage.


Funny how no one seemed to think this of the US while they were in the UK and Europe during WW2....



Good grief. Not a chip on the shoulder but a bazooka! John Wayne and Errol Flynn to the rescue.
At least we knew who the enemy was. What took you so long to join in? Making profit from both sides, was it? Good job someone was trying to do a proper job of looking after the neighbours' property already!
Being right once cannot excuse being so very wrong so very often.
Knee-jerk reactions and shoot first, ask questions later are the very essence of Hollywood and yours is just another example.
You may see someone breaking into a car but any such person is still innocent until proven guilty in a court of law - not the trigger jerk of gun law.
Make the world safer by getting guns off the streets of America.
(And yes, I know Flynn was Australian)


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Message 889201 - Posted: 28 Apr 2009, 15:33:42 UTC

Keep and Bear Arms - a time worn excuse for many! States were to regulate militias - not the Feds! In fact even today a Guardsman can BEAR ARMS - but must check his assault rifle into the armory when he goes home. Our founding fathers had little use for standing armed groups and left it to the states to maintain and regulate them. I guess today we have groups that oppose paramilitary groups such as police who abuse the concept of percieved threat to kill unarmed CIVILLIANS. Military groups have RULES OF ENGAGEMENT - Police have PERCIEVED THREAT. Armed civillians are also governed by Percieved threat.
What is needed is laws of engagement for percieved threat. We also need strictly enforced laws which guarantee penalties for instances where firearms are used or even posessed in commission of ANY CRIME.
Were the armed forces prosecuted during WW2 for the hunting of "Werewolves" in western Germany? Some individuals were in Vietnam under similar conditions.What was the percieved threat that caused a Chicago Civilian to get shot while holding a cell phone when stopped for a traffic violation? The cell phone was a percieved threat.
To drive a vehicle is a PRIVILEDGE, to own a firearm is a RIGHT. To drive a car you have to KNOW THE LAWS, and they are VERY SPECIFIc. To own a gun you must only prove YOU ARE NOT A FELON, and also have no MENTAL DISABILITIES - you aren't required to know the laws or even prove you know how or much less when to use it.
Did our VIGILANTE get carried away with percieved threat? Certainly - just like our Chicago Cop and our Vietnam Patrol. Does MADD want to do away with CARS?
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Message 889207 - Posted: 28 Apr 2009, 15:47:55 UTC - in response to Message 889201.
Last modified: 28 Apr 2009, 16:06:09 UTC

Knee-jerk reactions and shoot first, ask questions later are the very essence of Hollywood and yours is just another example.


Ekky, mine is not a kneejerk reaction or a chip at all--I've personally seen the reality of situations such as we're talking about in this thread first-hand, both from a military and a law enforcement point-of-view. I've also lived and worked in both the US and the UK for many years and so am very familiar with both countries and their laws from a first-hand perspective, also.

I've never needed to rely on only TV news reports and internet supposition for my information--my info on this comes from direct experience and knowledge.

You assume because of my posting that I agree with the fellow that left his home and shot this kid rather than wait for law enforcement to take care of the situation. You obviously missed my response in Blurf's original thread on this subject...and had quite the kneejerk reaction, yourself. LOL

Regardless, IMHO this particular shooting had much less to do with the entire law-abiding public's ability to own personal weapons in the US than it did with the actions of one man who owned a weapon and made an individual decision--and perhaps that's where the major part of this discussion should remain and concentrate on here, rather than attempting to debate foreign policies, as well.
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Message 889211 - Posted: 28 Apr 2009, 15:56:19 UTC - in response to Message 889207.

Military groups have RULES OF ENGAGEMENT - Police have PERCIEVED THREAT


Actually, for law enforcement, perceived threat falls under their Rules of Engagement category. Law Enforcement agencies do indeed have Rules of Engagement policies (which are somewhat fluid depending on the policies of individual departments and agencies).


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Message 889213 - Posted: 28 Apr 2009, 15:57:12 UTC - in response to Message 889086.


I think what must cheese off some people is the Second Amendment presupposes that a person is responsible enough to have self control absent some government central planning committee.


I'm not familiar with the name Paul Kersey.
I do know the name Bruce Wayne as the fictional character in Batman.
I can only assume there's a Batman connection between the names.

I'm quoting you here because I'd like you to explain how the 2nd amendment explains the shooter's self control in this case.

Using a gun, he killed a kid.





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Message 889220 - Posted: 28 Apr 2009, 16:08:33 UTC - in response to Message 889130.

With your incredible lust for violence and mass gun crime I do not believe you ever got past the first stage.


Funny how no one seemed to think this of the US while they were in the UK and Europe during WW2....


Most individuals in the military during WWII did not have weapons at home and had not fired weapons until they joined the military. Were talking non farming city folk.
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Message 889262 - Posted: 28 Apr 2009, 22:08:56 UTC - in response to Message 889213.

I'm not familiar with the name Paul Kersey.
I do know the name Bruce Wayne as the fictional character in Batman.
I can only assume there's a Batman connection between the names.


http://www.imdb.com/character/ch0013722/


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Message 889345 - Posted: 29 Apr 2009, 4:18:14 UTC - in response to Message 888747.

British law on Citizen's Arrest
Private gun ownership should be one of the hardest things possible to achieve. It should never be a "right" and certainly is not permitted under the US Constitution unless you bend one phrase so far as to persuade the law enforcement process that this is the case.
US citizens who live by the gun have an appalling tendency both to deal death and to die by the gun. How many more have to die in this way before the truth hits you with magnum force?


What part of either the phrase "shall not be infringed" or the case DC vs Heller do you not understand? The framers of our Constitution were very smart fellers. In fact, they were so smart they were careful to write the Constitution and the Bill of Rights in little bitty words that anyone could understand. You may WISH the Second Amendment would go away, but it will not, and it means just exactly what it says.

Further, I am always amused by the voluntarily unarmed suggesting to me that I must disarm. Since you wouldn't DREAM of touching a nasty, evil old gun yourself, how in the bloody hell do you think you are going to make me?
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