What if instead of giving the money to the banks and wallstreet we do something like we did in the 30s. Use it to create government projects. Like rebuilding our bridges. They are falling apart. And building more metros and subways. Damns and things like that. We could employ the unemployed and the people work for crap at walmart to do it. Give them money to put in the bank and pay their loans with. That way we get new bridges. The banks get the money when people pay their bills.

And I am not talking about hiring construction companies at 15 billion a pop to do something. It has to be managed in a cost basis.

It is like reverse trickle down.

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You don't want to give a lot of bureaucrats millions instead of ceos.
Another reason not to do this is the economic lag. It would be more than one year before constuction would actually start and the economy would already be in the tank.

Yes the crazy arms and interest only loans. It also allow the price to be pushed up so people who were putting money in savings and doing the right thing by not taking on of these crazy loans were left out in the cold. Now the Govt doesn't want prices to come down so once again they are left in the cold.

Chris.

I should have been more explicit.
Home purchases are generally a sound investment.
Creative financing allowing home purchases with
0% down, 100% financing, without credit checks
are a recipe for disaster.

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People spoiled the vote in Congress on something that effects US all(That the people thought is/was just a Wall street problem) and will have to pay a bigger amount a bit at a time now, instead of a smaller amount all at once, Unless Congress does a revote on the supposed $700 billion bailout bill. CNN confirmed What I've known for some time that the credit that people and businesses(big and small) all rely on is drying up, That unlike 1929 when the Fed tightened credit, This time the Market is tightening credit up tighter than 1929 and unless something is done by the Government to relieve that bad debt, peoples pay checks, jobs, buying houses, loans(cars, retirement accounts, IRAs, 401Ks, houses, etc) will be if they aren't already very hard to get, But I guess Forest Gump was right "Stupid is, As Stupid does". It seems the market(CNN didn't say which one, could be the credit market) have lost $1.2 trillion as a result of the failure of the bailout to pass according to CNN on TV, Some people just don't understand and think It can hurt them and there may be more to come.

People for once made members of congress do not what's best for the USA, But for the politicians, the politicians went for saving their jobs, rather than do what's right for the country against the wishes of the ignorant. to the ignorant Nay Sayers: I say shame on the nay sayers, Shame!!!

If the bill isn't revoted on and It doesn't pass You all will be paying on this until possibly 2015 according to CNN TV.

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The T1 Trust, PRR T1 Class 4-4-4-4 #5550, 1 of America's First HST's

Old economic ideas no longer apply

ROBERT J. SAMUELSON
NEWSWEEK

September 30, 2008

What we are witnessing, in the broadest sense, is the bankruptcy of modern economics. Its conceit has been that we had solved the problem of stability.

Oh, there would be periodic recessions, but the prospects of a major economic collapse were negligible because we knew how the system worked and could take precautionary steps to prevent it. What's been so unsettling about the present crisis is that it has not conformed to the standard model of business cycles and has not submitted to familiar textbook solutions.

A hallmark of the crisis has been the stark contrast between the “real economy” of production and jobs and the tumultuous financial markets of stocks, bonds, banks, money funds and the like. Even with the 60 percent drop in housing construction, the real economy has so far suffered only modest setbacks.

Yes, payroll jobs have declined 605,000 since December; still, 137.5 million jobs remain. Meanwhile, financial markets verge on hysteria. The question is whether this hysteria will drive the real economy into a deep recession or worse – and what we can do to prevent that.

The word that best epitomizes mainstream “macroeconomics” (the study of the entire economy, not individual markets) is demand. If weak demand left the economy in a slump, government could rectify the situation by stimulating more demand through tax cuts, higher spending or lower interest rates. If excess demand created inflation, government could suppress it by cutting demand through more taxes, less spending or higher interest rates.

Economists of this tradition watch consumer and business behavior. Are car sales soft? How much are companies raising prices? What about profits?

The $152 billion “stimulus” program earlier this year was a classic exercise in “demand management.” It didn't work well mainly because this crisis originated in frightened financial markets.

Massive losses on mortgage-related securities caused some financial institutions to fail. As fear spread, financial institutions grew wary of dealing with each other because no one knew who was solvent and who wasn't.

To Treasury Secretary Hank Paulson and Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke, this financial breakdown now threatens the real economy. Companies depend on bank borrowings and sales of commercial paper (in effect, short-term bonds) to conduct everyday business – to buy inventories, to pay suppliers and workers before cash arrives from sales.

Credit markets were freezing, Paulson and Bernanke decided. Panicky investors were shifting from commercial paper to Treasury bills; banks weren't lending to each other. Consumers and firms wouldn't get essential credit.

If you reject that conclusion, then the whole crisis has been a contrived farce. Some economists do; they note that downturns always involve losses and disruptions. This one isn't so different.

But many economists agree with Paulson and Bernanke. “If we can't calm down short-term credit markets, we're looking at a pretty severe recession,” says Michael Mussa of the Peterson Institute. “If businesses can't roll over their short-term debt, (they) ask where can we cut back” – firing workers, reducing spending – “to avoid bankruptcy.”

Unfortunately, we lack experience with stabilizing financial markets, and the issue has been at the fringes of economics. Mostly, markets should operate freely. When is intervention justified? How?

Of course, economists recognized that the Federal Reserve should act as a “lender of last resort” and that permitting two-fifths of banks to fail in the 1930s aggravated the Depression. But the creation in 1933 of deposit insurance (now up to $100,000) was thought to prevent most bank runs, and the “lender of last resort” role never anticipated a worldwide financial system that mediated credit not just through banks but also through hedge funds, private equity funds, investment banks and many other channels. In congressional testimony, Bernanke admitted the Fed has been “shocked” at how elastic the “lender of last resort” role has become.

The resulting intellectual vacuum has spawned political chaos. Unpleasant and untested ideas invite opposition.

Paulson's plan to buy up to $700 billion of impaired securities was wildly unpopular. It might not have worked and raised many problems. If the government paid too little for the securities, financial failures would have mounted; if it paid too much, it would have created windfall profits for some investors and losses for taxpayers.

But Paulson's plan had better prospects to restore confidence by removing suspect securities from balance sheets than suggested alternatives. Selective injections of capital into banks, for instance, might have involved favoritism and operated too slowly to improve confidence. Psychology matters.

The economy will get worse. Mussa thinks unemployment (now 6.1 percent) could peak near 7 percent; other projections are higher.

The harder question is whether financial turmoil heralds an era of instability. Our leaders are making up their responses from day to day because old ideas of how the economy works have failed them. These ideas were not necessarily wrong; but they're grievously inadequate.

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me@rescam.org

What we are witnessing, in the broadest sense, is the bankruptcy of modern economics.

B_b_bu_but "CAPITALISM is the ONLY system that WORKS!" <--- Are you sure about that? ;)

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It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . .

What does everyone think about giving the money to the people via direct job creation to build infrastructure. Instead of giving it to the banks. I am not sure if I like it or not. But I would rather Jane and Joe get it instead of the CEO of the bank that just failed. Jane and Joe could pay their bills and put it in the bank. And we get infrastructure out of it.


What I don't like is using the 700 billion then lowering taxes. sorry, but past tax cuts have to go away for this to go out the door. We have to pay for it some way.

Chris.

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Is the great experiment in complete faith in the invisible hand of the market over yet?
Will the followers of the disciples of the Chicago School of Economics finally have their eyes opened to the real truth of this fantasy?

Will young people in America shake off the bonds of blind consumerism and realize the empty promise?

Will young people like Chris be able to withstand the onslaught of abuse hurled at those who offer a socially democratic solution in these forums from the ditto-heads. (ditto-heads are the people who nod their heads while listening to Limbaugh's ravings)

Americans are finding themselves in uncharted waters and if the citizens don't take control of the tiller, they leave the way clear for a solution from other sources.
Will those other sources have the people's interests at heart, or will the interests of the pampered elites be foremost?

Read Howard Zinn. Read Noam Chomsky. Read Naomi Klein.
Inform and educate yourself to the point where you are able to make a wise choice based on truth, not propaganda and lies.

There is a multitude of economic theories to base national policy upon.

Laissez-faire economics should now take it's place in history along with the dinosaurs.
Why not try something that reflects the needs of the many?

Is the great experiment in complete faith in the invisible hand of the market over yet? Will the followers of the disciples of the Chicago School of Economics finally have their eyes opened to the real truth of this fantasy?

Of course not. The Chicagoans and the Austrians know exactly what caused these issues, and it was not the invisible hand--it was gov't meddling and force that induced people to make economic decisions that they otherwise would not have made. For example, rating subprime securities as AAA and backing them with FFC of the U.S. Gov't. That was stupid.

Will young people in America shake off the bonds of blind consumerism and realize the empty promise?

Young people in America will do just like people everywhere, young and old, do. They will live their lives as they see fit and as best they can. That will not change.

Will young people like Chris be able to withstand the onslaught of abuse hurled at those who offer a socially democratic solution in these forums from the ditto-heads. (ditto-heads are the people who nod their heads while listening to Limbaugh's ravings)

Offer all the solutions you wish. If they are at the point of a gun, using gov't force, they will fail, and in the process they will create even bigger problems by skewing markets where they do not belong.

Americans are finding themselves in uncharted waters and if the citizens don't take control of the tiller, they leave the way clear for a solution from other sources.

Yeah, good luck with that. Tell us again, why don't the citizens that belong to the UAW just take control and build their own cars instead of begging GM for jobs?

Will those other sources have the people's interests at heart, or will the interests of the pampered elites be foremost?

If you impose gov't force, you can almost guarantee that pampered elites will benefit. They always do.

Read Howard Zinn. Read Noam Chomsky. Read Naomi Klein. Inform and educate yourself to the point where you are able to make a wise choice based on truth, not propaganda and lies.

Actually, don't read any of that partisan ideology. Go take some economics courses. Every community college has them. Take a year or two of both Macro and Microeconomics--something that Howie, Noami, and Naomi are woefully lacking. Learn about simple cost/benefit analysis, how money and credit work, what creates money, how price conveys information, et cetera. Make your own informed decisions and don't listen to partisan ideologues that will mislead you at the drop of a hat.

There is a multitude of economic theories to base national policy upon.

All of which, if meddled with by the gov't, will result in massive bubbles and equally massive corrections. Or, will give you economic systems like the Soviet Union, the DPRK, Cuba, to name a few examples.

Laissez-faire economics should now take it's place in history along with the dinosaurs.

There was no laissez-faire economics here, the bubble and overvaluing was caused by gov't intervention in markets. That's just socialism/communism.

Why not try something that reflects the needs of the many?

Provide it. Get going. Hell, tell us why Cuba has to buy every single bit of medical equipment, drugs, machines, et cetera it uses from large privately owned companies. I mean, why didn't they just nationalize their own big pharms? Oh, right, they didn't have any. Or why they don't just make their own defibrillators? Or their own AZT? Or their own aspirin? Why don't they just make more laws to create this stuff?

It seems really hypocritical for them to buy this stuff from the capitalist free market...

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Cordially,
Rush

elrushbo2@theobviousgmail.com
Remove the obvious...

If the bill isn't revoted on and It doesn't pass You all will be paying on this until possibly 2015 according to CNN TV.

The media is strong-arming us into thinking the bailout must be done. I have had the week off and have been listing to Public Radio and Conservative Talk radio. There is nothing but "we have to pass this bailout" talk. So far the stock market has not tanked. It took a dip but recovered mostly. So, why panic? The financial crap is smoke and mirrors that adds no value to the economy so let it tank. We will suffer, but we will survive. If the government really wants to solve the problem it would take control of our money supply away from the Federal Reserve (a private bank) whose only motive is getting our government further and further in debt so they rake in the interest payments. The Fed would love for us to go another 700 billion in debt. Just say NO to the bailout...!!!

Let them die. Exactly. No Freddie. No Fannie. Let them all die. Notice that Lehman died and no one else did.

Let every single one of them die.

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Cordially,
Rush

elrushbo2@theobviousgmail.com
Remove the obvious...

Let them die. Exactly. No Freddie. No Fannie. Let them all die. Notice that Lehman died and no one else did.

Let every single one of them die.

So doing nothing is Your solution? Some solution, A Hoover=Vacuum=Nothing, As Hoover did nothing and wasn't willing to do anything, Beyond being spineless.

Well If Herbert Hoover was President, I guess You'd vote for Herbert Hoover(Hoover was running for reelection then and lost to FDR) over Franklin D. Roosevelt and make things even worse than they were.

According to My Mother FDR was the Greatest President since Lincoln or Washington or TR. And the saying was Mothers are always right.

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The T1 Trust, PRR T1 Class 4-4-4-4 #5550, 1 of America's First HST's

Most of the things I have read say this in not compareable to the Great Depression. The crash of 29 (i think) preceeded the Depression. So if history was going to repeat, it would seem like we have a few years to act still. Bush and Paulson and the media are trying to ram something down our mouth. I think that is what most peoiple are resisting. Throwing more money down the drain doesn't seem like a great idea to me. At least without some serious thought. And a week ain't enough for serious thought.

I agree with you. I am sure that the new deal under FDR did offer support for the banks. However, it also offered jobs via programs to the people. Now I know unemployment was much higher then, but I think our numbers are just as high now do to what I call unseen unemployment. We got rid of our industry and are trying to live on a service based economy and that will not work. In my mind everyone that works for walmart (just an example here) is unemployed. What if we greated new damns, bridges, subways like FDR did. Make a new TVA. But we would have to be careful because if we just hire existing contruction companies with the same old red tape and regs we would be looking at 5 billion dollar bills just for a new stop for an additional subway. Or better yet only have free trade with fellow democracies with a fair standard of living. I would include mexico on this list, but with a hard date for them to bring up the standard of living. I would not include china on this list because of their communist/dictatorship governemnet that allows slave/child labor. I think it is are trade police (one policy for every country we trade with) that has caused this problem. As the industry foundation left this country banks had to start lowering the loan rules to keep issue loans. Then oil prices went up because other parts of the world started using more oil to make and ship the goods here.

I love trade. Many civilazations in the past have failed due to being afraid of trade. Heck, this happened to china at least twice in its history. However, one must understand that trade can cause harm and it has to be close to fair. Not for the quick buck.


Chris.

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Perhaps Wall Street and our Gov. are so worried because they know that they have dismantled the industrial base of this country. They might think there is nothing left if finance falls. The scary thing is that they might be right. But finance alone can't save us. We need income to qualify for finance. Bailing out the finance folks still leaves us with no industrial base to pay off our debt. Our government seems blind to that simple fact.

Most of the things I have read say this in not comparable to the Great Depression. The crash of 29 (i think) preceded the Depression. So if history was going to repeat, it would seem like we have a few years to act still. Bush and Paulson and the media are trying to ram something down our mouth. I think that is what most people are resisting. Throwing more money down the drain doesn't seem like a great idea to me. At least without some serious thought. And a week ain't enough for serious thought.

All I'm saying is there were those including Hoover who wanted to do nothing and let the Market take care of It by Itself, FDR like some of our current leaders did not want to do nothing, He did something and He was Disabled too, Of course today We also have those who want to do nothing and some of those people hate capitalism and practically worship the hammer and sickle of Uncle Joe(Stalin).

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The T1 Trust, PRR T1 Class 4-4-4-4 #5550, 1 of America's First HST's

The Senate just passed their version of the bailout. Joe Biden was AWOL. Obama and McCain voted for it.

Capitalists usually argue that they want no interference from Gov. That should also include that they get no bailouts when they fail.

I agree with guido.man about the capitalists waging war on us. We need a Jesus figure to overturn the tables of the money changers who are in the temple of the USA.

The Senate just passed their version of the bailout. Joe Biden was AWOL. Obama and McCain voted for it.

Capitalists usually argue that they want no interference from Gov. That should also include that they get no bailouts when they fail.

I agree with Guido.man about the capitalists waging war on us. We need a Jesus figure to overturn the tables of the money changers who are in the temple of the USA.

Well for those that don't have a better idea other than the Rescue plan, I suggest someone speak up, Everyone is listening.

CBS just reported that Georgia(in the USA) and Connecticut are having problems with Interest as their rates have gone up, In Connecticut alone the state had to allocate $200,000.00 to higher interest rates for this Year alone and Georgia is having difficulty refinancing $200,000,000.00 in Bonds.

I think some presume to know more than any in Government or in Business and probably think their all a bunch of liars, The people doing the presuming are in De-nile and they can't tell the crocodiles from the aligators, Problem is both eat Meat. chomp, chomp, tear and gulp.

Oh and the crash of 1929 was caused by Wall Street and aided by Hoover who did nothing, FDR came in to power and picked up the pieces and got the USA running again and guided the USA most of the way through WWII before dying in office.

You've heard of the WPA(Works Progress Administration, The WPA was later deemed unconstitutional by the courts), the New Deal and the Social Security Administration I hope? FDR made those come into existence.

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The T1 Trust, PRR T1 Class 4-4-4-4 #5550, 1 of America's First HST's