Termination of User Contracts II

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BeefDog
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Message 792620 - Posted: 4 Aug 2008, 10:51:23 UTC - in response to Message 792610.  

Which is what I said in my post. The privilages are controlled by the rules. But a poster still has the right to express himself in a way accepted by the "rules".
No argument from me there, assuming the poster in question hasn't lost the privileges already. I even think rules can be flexible depending on circumstance and context (Thank goodness! we all make mistakes). But just how flexible do you be?... and when is a firm hand the best? Sometimes it has to be, for the good of the community, that rules are enforced to the fullest, and there are those that will test them beyond those limits in the future. On most programming forums I visit, bans are permanent and include IP bans. The rules here are simple and clear, and for most of us I think we do pretty well to respect them. Let's stop pushing the rules beyond design limits, and give it a go.

Jason


Just banning someone without giving them a chance is also not the right way.
Do people get warned here in the the form of a PM?
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Message 792624 - Posted: 4 Aug 2008, 11:01:46 UTC - in response to Message 792620.  


Just banning someone without giving them a chance is also not the right way.
Do people get warned here in the the form of a PM?


Beefdog---my understanding was that there was a PM sent out a few weeks back explaining what could happen and that involved people were given an opportunity to step forward and lay out their position. If they chose not to take action on that PM then there's not much else to be said.


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Message 792630 - Posted: 4 Aug 2008, 11:22:10 UTC - in response to Message 792603.  

I tend to think many people don't understand the difference between 'rights' and 'privileges'. Anyone has rights within limits, sure, however IMO this forum, and any individual's ability to post here, are a privilege and so can be taken away if it is abused.


Which is what I said in my post. The privilages are controlled by the rules. But a poster still has the right to express himself in a way accepted by the "rules".


That's incorrect.

If you truly understand the difference between rights and privileges, then what exactly do you think gives you "a right" to participate on these forums?

Participation in Seti@Home? Sorry, the BOINC app is independent of the forum.

That you haven't violated any of the posted rules? That means nothing more than the content of your post(s) is acceptable.

Do I think the post should remain for all to see? Absolutely, but that doesn't mean I have "a right" to see it or that the admin would be unjust in hiding it.

I really just don't understand how some folks think they have "a right" to other people's property....


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Message 792634 - Posted: 4 Aug 2008, 11:33:09 UTC - in response to Message 792630.  

I tend to think many people don't understand the difference between 'rights' and 'privileges'. Anyone has rights within limits, sure, however IMO this forum, and any individual's ability to post here, are a privilege and so can be taken away if it is abused.


Which is what I said in my post. The privilages are controlled by the rules. But a poster still has the right to express himself in a way accepted by the "rules".


That's incorrect.

If you truly understand the difference between rights and privileges, then what exactly do you think gives you "a right" to participate on these forums?

Participation in Seti@Home? Sorry, the BOINC app is independent of the forum.

That you haven't violated any of the posted rules? That means nothing more than the content of your post(s) is acceptable.

Do I think the post should remain for all to see? Absolutely, but that doesn't mean I have "a right" to see it or that the admin would be unjust in hiding it.

I really just don't understand how some folks think they have "a right" to other people's property....


As I said in my post, I or any other user is privileged to participate in the forum as long as the rules are adherred to. I never said that anyone has a right to post here. I said that he has a right to express his opinion.
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Message 792638 - Posted: 4 Aug 2008, 11:38:25 UTC - in response to Message 792634.  


As I said in my post, I or any other user is privileged to participate in the forum as long as the rules are adherred to. I never said that anyone has a right to post here. I said that he has a right to express his opinion.



Well if "no one" has a right to post here, then the logical conclusion is that no one has a right to express their opinion here either, regardless of their adherence to the rules.


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Message 792641 - Posted: 4 Aug 2008, 11:47:54 UTC - in response to Message 792638.  


As I said in my post, I or any other user is privileged to participate in the forum as long as the rules are adherred to. I never said that anyone has a right to post here. I said that he has a right to express his opinion.



Well if "no one" has a right to post here, then the logical conclusion is that no one has a right to express their opinion here either, regardless of their adherence to the rules.


You're mixing privileges with right again....

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Message 792643 - Posted: 4 Aug 2008, 11:53:28 UTC - in response to Message 792641.  
Last modified: 4 Aug 2008, 11:55:01 UTC


As I said in my post, I or any other user is privileged to participate in the forum as long as the rules are adherred to. I never said that anyone has a right to post here. I said that he has a right to express his opinion.



Well if "no one" has a right to post here, then the logical conclusion is that no one has a right to express their opinion here either, regardless of their adherence to the rules.


You're mixing privileges with right again....


No YOU'RE mixing privilege with right.

The only people with "rights" here are those who have been granted authority by the owners and their distinction is clearly indicated by the term admin.


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Message 792648 - Posted: 4 Aug 2008, 12:02:45 UTC - in response to Message 792643.  
Last modified: 4 Aug 2008, 12:03:25 UTC


As I said in my post, I or any other user is privileged to participate in the forum as long as the rules are adherred to. I never said that anyone has a right to post here. I said that he has a right to express his opinion.



Well if "no one" has a right to post here, then the logical conclusion is that no one has a right to express their opinion here either, regardless of their adherence to the rules.


You're mixing privileges with right again....


No YOU'RE mixing privilege with right.

The only people with "rights" here are those who have been granted authority by the owners and their distinction is clearly indicated by the term admin.


The dicussion was that people have a right to express their opinion and not where they have that right. Or do you deny that people have the right to express themselves?
I am granted the privilege to express my opinion on this board. A board admin however has the right to take that privilege away but he can't take my right to express my privilege. My right to express is still existant even if my privilege is gone....
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Message 792651 - Posted: 4 Aug 2008, 12:10:26 UTC - in response to Message 792648.  

The dicussion was that people have a right to express their opinion and not where they have that right. Or do you deny that people have the right to express themselves?
I am granted the privilege to express my opinion on this board. A board admin however has the right to take that privilege away but he can't take my right to express my privilege. My right to express is still existant even if my privilege is gone....


Ahh yes, now I think I see where you are coming from, allow me to make some adjustments:
- you have right to express yourself (depending on where you live)
- you have the privilege of posting on this forum.
- you have the responsibility to stay with the posting rules.
- the moderators & admin have the responsibility (not right or privilege) to enforce the rules, whereby they may remove your privileges ... BUT... you probably still have the right to express yourself in the Park.

"Living by the wisdom of computer science doesn't sound so bad after all. And unlike most advice, it's backed up by proofs." -- Algorithms to live by: The computer science of human decisions.
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Message 792652 - Posted: 4 Aug 2008, 12:11:52 UTC - in response to Message 792651.  

The dicussion was that people have a right to express their opinion and not where they have that right. Or do you deny that people have the right to express themselves?
I am granted the privilege to express my opinion on this board. A board admin however has the right to take that privilege away but he can't take my right to express my privilege. My right to express is still existant even if my privilege is gone....


Ahh yes, now I think I see where you are coming from, allow me to make some adjustments:
- you have right to express yourself (depending on where you live)
- you have the privilege of posting on this forum.
- you have the responsibility to stay with the posting rules.
- the moderators & admin have the responsibility (not right or privilege) to enforce the rules, whereby they may remove your privileges ... BUT... you probably still have the right to express yourself in the Park.


I think you just about summed that up correctly!

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Message 792657 - Posted: 4 Aug 2008, 12:23:08 UTC - in response to Message 792655.  

ermmm... I think that violates the rules BD you might want to edit that


Which is actually the job of a good mod/admin, to show people rather than just using their authority and not explaining why....

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Message 792660 - Posted: 4 Aug 2008, 12:25:30 UTC - in response to Message 792657.  
Last modified: 4 Aug 2008, 12:34:02 UTC

No, that's your job/responsibility as a privileged poster, to understand and abide by the rules. The moderators are there to enforce them [where you fail to abide by them].

...[Good move ;D congratulations on discovering the art of self moderation ;D]
"Living by the wisdom of computer science doesn't sound so bad after all. And unlike most advice, it's backed up by proofs." -- Algorithms to live by: The computer science of human decisions.
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Message 792664 - Posted: 4 Aug 2008, 12:33:29 UTC - in response to Message 792660.  

No, that's your job/responsibility as a privileged poster, to understand and abide by the rules. The moderators are there to enforce them [where you fail to abide by them].


Point taken!

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Message 792673 - Posted: 4 Aug 2008, 13:04:37 UTC

Moderators are only supposed to communicate via PM as a last form of communication. Once a user has been modded, the user is sent an email and is usually given an explanation in the email itself.
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Message 792677 - Posted: 4 Aug 2008, 13:09:38 UTC - in response to Message 792453.  

I can see that my little exercise in free speech rapidly degenerated into personal attacks. The former thread on this topic, with specific instructions for "light moderation", has been locked. I have not yet decided whether or not to hide it.

I have opened a new thread for you to continue your discussions, if you wish. The normal rules of moderation apply to this thread. If you are a meanie-weenie, your posts will hidden!

Wilma


Hear Hear.
Be it upon our own heads if this thread is moderated.
Now please, please, may we try to conduct ourselves in a mature adult manner and let us not allow this thread to also deteriorate into a sickening display of personal mud slinging and back-stabbing.

Anyone who witnessed the the beginning of this disastrous sequence of events a month ago will know the name of the person on who's head lies the blame.
Myself and others were banned for expressing our anger and disgust at his unconscionable abuse of authority and betrayal of trust which has culminated in the termination of contracts of some members whom I would call friend.
My personal opinion?
I am delighted that the above mentioned person has been axed but for the rest, I would prefer that a lesser punishment be imposed allowing for their return to the community at a future date following the issuance of a final letter of warning.

When the private "Pub" was opened to public viewing I wasn't interested in going there because to me it would be like reading someone's mail or private diary. I was disappointed that many did not have the same attitude as myself.

Once again, please keep this thread calm, sensible and on topic.

Thank you all.

Whiskey.




ditto Whiskey,


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Message 792678 - Posted: 4 Aug 2008, 13:16:43 UTC - in response to Message 792673.  
Last modified: 4 Aug 2008, 13:29:19 UTC

Moderators are only supposed to communicate via PM as a last form of communication. Once a user has been modded, the user is sent an email and is usually given an explanation in the email itself.
Makes sense, as I suppose the PM's aren't meant as a reliable/logged/archived mechanism for accountability purposes. Email makes better sense then (where available) as header information is pretty detailed and replies can contain email reply history verifying the conversation on both sides.
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Message 792693 - Posted: 4 Aug 2008, 14:24:25 UTC


Well said Siran.
I agree.
There are a few persons wich can say what ever they want its allways true.
And others are allways liers.
In my point of view its a shame.
To be honest its the right of the admins to cancel a contract by any meanings.
But hasn´t every volunteer the right to protect himself.
Some of the "enemys" was banned again and again for no reasons.
I allways believed in the good things but you changed me.



With each crime and every kindness we birth our future.
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Message 792700 - Posted: 4 Aug 2008, 14:51:08 UTC

My own impressions of the whole thing thus far:

1. Some years ago there was some modding in the Cafe that those modded thought went too far.

2. Those modded fought back in a variety of ways.

3. The mods concerned are alleged to have used underhand tactics as a result of (2.) This may, according to the group, have gone as far as criminal activity.

4. There were many and various skirmishes fought all over the Internet and especially here in these pages.

5. In desperation at never getting "justice" rightly or wrongly, one faction set up their own board where they discussed various mods / former mods in both derogatory and non-derogatory terms and the action some of them took.

6. Evidence of what they perceived to be a mod "conspiracy" and other perfectly legitimate activity was ultimately obtained by the wrongful use of a dead mod's password.

7. This further access to present-time mod activities was wrongly used and circulated by a handful of the original group of 30, by no means all. Several strongly dissented from the activities.

8. ACTION. Admin finally took note of some of what has gone on and has terminated certain persons' access.

9. ACTION? Was anything ever done about the earlier allegations about the mods of the time?

10. The public and private rankle continues with some giving way to triumphalism, others to despair and the rest of us wondering if the "truth" will ever come out.

11. Several crunchers threaten to leave S@H for ever. More to follow?

12. A private and/or public enquiry into the whole mess needs to be undertaken with proper evidence taken from all concerned. I only want to know the end result and not the detail.


Look, truth will out eventually and if not handled properly it will be immensely damaging. At present there seem to be at the very least two completely opposing "truths". My own suspicion is that there just may have been some heavy-handed modding at some point in the past that was either not fully justified or was not reversed by Admin of the day. The resulting resentment has boiled and seethed on both sides ever since, just leading to further and greater resentment by all parties. Some sort of Truth Commission along South African lines is the only way to get to the bottom of it all. What I have written above is certain to be wholly inadequate and cannot possibly pass muster as a proper factual examination: I do not and cannot know more than a tiny proportion of the facts, only what I can divine from recent information published here.

This will not go away and will inevitably damage S@H both here and in the wider world. I want to get back to the basics of why we are here in the first place: crunching for S@H. There simply has to be a full resolution of all these differences and what has caused them. The shouting just has to stop.



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Message 792701 - Posted: 4 Aug 2008, 15:00:11 UTC

Very well summed up I think.

I just want to know, are there changes being made to prevent this kind of thing in the future? We have some very knowledgeable people here who I am sure can help secure an email list. But I guess it boils down to time. If a retired mod is not taken off the email list then doesn't part of the blame rest on the shoulders of those who sat around and did not remove his email?
Daniel

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Message 792704 - Posted: 4 Aug 2008, 15:07:54 UTC

Very well and calmly stated EKKY.

Let's all get on with the crunching and let the admins mop up a bit.


"Freedom is just Chaos, with better lighting." Alan Dean Foster

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