The loss of ice at the North Pole in the Northern Hemisphere's summer is interesting. This means the North Polar region will be returning to it's ice free nature, like it was about 1 million years ago, but sooner than expected.

Another 'interesting' point is that Mankind wasn't around at that time. And certainly not with our present (and very fragile) level of intensive farming and industry...

So far, the ice melt is beating us on the CO2 race...

I think we do need better ideas.

Regards,
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

The loss of ice at the North Pole in the Northern Hemisphere's summer is interesting. This means the North Polar region will be returning to it's ice free nature, like it was about 1 million years ago, but sooner than expected.

Another 'interesting' point is that Mankind wasn't around at that time. And certainly not with our present (and very fragile) level of intensive farming and industry...

So far, the ice melt is beating us on the CO2 race...

I think we do need better ideas.

Regards,
Martin

Did they have Polar Bears a million years ago, before the ice fields formed?

---

It's good to be back amongst friends and colleagues

Its not easy to answer.

VW will release two hybrid cars by the end of the year.
BMW and Mercedes are working on HH0 cars.

But its all about money.

How could the market make money if you could fill your car in the garden just with water.
Million of companies could close their doors.
And million of people would be workless.

I disagree with calling them HHO cars. HHO is an attempt to make hydrogen and oxygen on board the vehicle. These are not HHO in that sense, they are Hydrogen vehicles in that you go to a filling station and fill the tank with hydrogen. HHO is an attempt to break the second law of thermodynamics. Hydrogen vehicles do not do this in that the hydrogen is produced outside of the vehicle.

---

BOINC WIKI

Strange as it may seem, I agree with John M'.

The automotive technologies that will dominate the next 5 - 10 years will be -

1. Hybrid IC engine (petrol and diesel)-electric vehicles
2. Battery electric vehicles

- with the hybrids taking the larger share, and in Europe the diesel-electric hybrids dominating because of the better fuel consumption without any loss in performance.

I think, as batteries (Fe-ion-phosphate next gen) improve their charge densities and recycling is more established, then these will get more sought after.

Regarding the development of what is termed HHO systems -

this is the development of a system to electrolyse water, to 2xH2 and O2, as it is required. This gas mix is then used to improve the combustion of the car's existing fuel to improve fuel consumption.

---

It's good to be back amongst friends and colleagues

But its all about money.

How could the market make money if you could fill your car in the garden just with water.

The car companies don't care about "the market" in general. They're in the business of selling cars.

High fuel prices are an opportunity to sell fuel efficient cars. Low fuel prices are an opportunity to sell bigger, less efficient cars.

Respond to (or predict) the market correctly, and your car company will do well.

If that means filling your car from the garden hose, great!

The problem is that water does not burn. You have to do something to make "fuel" out of water and that takes energy -- which you end up buying somewhere.

Wrong Ned sorry.
I´m working in that buisness.
They do care.
Back in the 80s a german mechanic produed a small part to reduce the emission of every car back to zero.
The price was just $15.
So what has happend ?
Mercedes buyed the patent and destroyed it.

---

With each crime and every kindness we birth our future.

Its not easy to answer.

VW will release two hybrid cars by the end of the year.
BMW and Mercedes are working on HH0 cars.

But its all about money.

How could the market make money if you could fill your car in the garden just with water.
Million of companies could close their doors.
And million of people would be workless.

I disagree with calling them HHO cars. HHO is an attempt to make hydrogen and oxygen on board the vehicle. These are not HHO in that sense, they are Hydrogen vehicles in that you go to a filling station and fill the tank with hydrogen. HHO is an attempt to break the second law of thermodynamics. Hydrogen vehicles do not do this in that the hydrogen is produced outside of the vehicle.

Also wrong.
I was in Sindelfingen at Mercedes prototype factory back in the 90s.
I see a fully working A class mercedes with HHO converter.
Only the prodction costs was just to high.
100.000 DM.

---

With each crime and every kindness we birth our future.

Wrong Ned sorry.
I´m working in that buisness.
They do care.
Back in the 80s a german mechanic produed a small part to reduce the emission of every car back to zero.
The price was just $15.
So what has happend ?
Mercedes buyed the patent and destroyed it.

Pfffft. Just go make it in China. They'll make anything--and they don't care if it's patented or not. They make counterfeit everything, movies, mobile phones, luxury watches, designer handbags, anything.

They can handle some stupid $15 dollar part.

---

Cordially,
Rush

elrushbo2@theobviousgmail.com
Remove the obvious...

So i´m wondering Rush.
Why didn´t they do it?
Because they dont have the construction plans.
Like i´ve said its destroyed.

ugggghhhhh.

---

With each crime and every kindness we birth our future.

It could be a "Good Invention, Poor development" scenario, or a complete crock.

If this magic wonder device is patented:
- Then it's been published, that's a big part of the whole point of patenting.
- patenting doesn't mean it actually works: A company may well have licensed the patent from the inventor and found it to NOT work, then shelved it, similar to the Australian invented Sarich orbital engine *purportedly* licensed by Ford (A much more promising invention operating with far less smoke and mirrors, but unfortunately some real unsolved practical issues).
- The idea of a company shelving such a device, if it worked and was practical, would be contrary to good business, as the company would have a temporary monopoly granted by the patent/licensing, so a limited timeframe to recoup expenses. It therefore would be in a company's interest to bring the device to market as quickly as possible.

---

"Living by the wisdom of computer science doesn't sound so bad after all. And unlike most advice, it's backed up by proofs." -- Algorithms to live by: The computer science of human decisions.

Mike

Do you remember the name of the patent inventor and patent number?

If so, it can be looked up through the UK Patent Office link at esp@ce.net.

---

It's good to be back amongst friends and colleagues

open Questions

Why has the technology for electric cars been stalled

Why is research into hydrogen gas as a fuel actively discouraged

Why is the price of fuel so high when there is no need for this price according to the Saudis who are pumping oil flat out.

Are we all simply prepared to sit back and take this "bull" from the companies who are acting more like gangsters every day that passes...


comments welcome

My take on the subject...

A simple two word answer to all the 'why' questions: Politics/Money. Somebody controls the politicians (lobbyists) and they also control the money(big business - OIL), which are the major controlling factors in transportation today.

The price of petro-fuel in the USA, is so high, partially due to market speculation, also partly due to the fact that there have been NO new refineries built in the last few decades, to keep up with natural supply and demand.

Venezuela could sell oil to the USA at $30/bbl STILL.... Their current dictator chooses NOT to do so. You can still fill up your car in Venezuela VERY cheaply. Just a few dollars will fill your tank there. The economy sucks there, as the Dollar/Bolivar exchange rate has gone from bad to worse over the last 15 years. I worked there in 95 and 96. I remember taking a gym bag to the bank, to cash my per diem checks, even back then.

Nigeria has lots of oil, but they have too many political problems to allow for stable production.

The US Arctic National Wildlife Refuge, would supply pretty much all of our petro needs. Our own politics keep us from exploiting it, even though the proposed drilling area is on a coastal shelf, the size of Ohio, and far from the pristine mountains and normal wildlife habitats.

Enough rambling...

Mark

---

But its all about money.

How could the market make money if you could fill your car in the garden just with water.

The car companies don't care about "the market" in general. They're in the business of selling cars.

High fuel prices are an opportunity to sell fuel efficient cars. Low fuel prices are an opportunity to sell bigger, less efficient cars.

Respond to (or predict) the market correctly, and your car company will do well.

If that means filling your car from the garden hose, great!

The problem is that water does not burn. You have to do something to make "fuel" out of water and that takes energy -- which you end up buying somewhere.

Wrong Ned sorry.
I´m working in that buisness.
They do care.
Back in the 80s a german mechanic produed a small part to reduce the emission of every car back to zero.
The price was just $15.
So what has happend ?
Mercedes buyed the patent and destroyed it.

So, they have this along with the patented 100-mile-per-gallon carburetor?

Sorry, Mike. Your story just doesn't make sense.

Besides, Mercedes is in the business of selling cars. If they could use a $15 part in place of the rather expensive emission controls they need now, they'd do it in a heartbeat. If they could license the part to every other manufacturer (because they owned the rights) and cash in, they'd price those rights a bit below the expensive emissions systems used now, and make a killing.

---

But its all about money.

How could the market make money if you could fill your car in the garden just with water.

The car companies don't care about "the market" in general. They're in the business of selling cars.

High fuel prices are an opportunity to sell fuel efficient cars. Low fuel prices are an opportunity to sell bigger, less efficient cars.

Respond to (or predict) the market correctly, and your car company will do well.

If that means filling your car from the garden hose, great!

The problem is that water does not burn. You have to do something to make "fuel" out of water and that takes energy -- which you end up buying somewhere.

Wrong Ned sorry.
I´m working in that buisness.
They do care.
Back in the 80s a german mechanic produed a small part to reduce the emission of every car back to zero.
The price was just $15.
So what has happend ?
Mercedes buyed the patent and destroyed it.

So, they have this along with the patented 100-mile-per-gallon carburetor?

Sorry, Mike. Your story just doesn't make sense.

Besides, Mercedes is in the business of selling cars. If they could use a $15 part in place of the rather expensive emission controls they need now, they'd do it in a heartbeat. If they could license the part to every other manufacturer (because they owned the rights) and cash in, they'd price those rights a bit below the expensive emissions systems used now, and make a killing.

Oh it doesn´t make sense?
Because you aren´t in that buisness.
Now they using parts wich they earn €100 per piece.
No sense to you?

---

With each crime and every kindness we birth our future.

open Questions

Why has the technology for electric cars been stalled

Why is research into hydrogen gas as a fuel actively discouraged

Why is the price of fuel so high when there is no need for this price according to the Saudis who are pumping oil flat out.

Are we all simply prepared to sit back and take this "bull" from the companies who are acting more like gangsters every day that passes...


comments welcome

My take on the subject...

A simple two word answer to all the 'why' questions: Politics/Money. Somebody controls the politicians (lobbyists) and they also control the money(big business - OIL), which are the major controlling factors in transportation today.

The price of petro-fuel in the USA, is so high, partially due to market speculation, also partly due to the fact that there have been NO new refineries built in the last few decades, to keep up with natural supply and demand.

Venezuela could sell oil to the USA at $30/bbl STILL.... Their current dictator chooses NOT to do so. You can still fill up your car in Venezuela VERY cheaply. Just a few dollars will fill your tank there. The economy sucks there, as the Dollar/Bolivar exchange rate has gone from bad to worse over the last 15 years. I worked there in 95 and 96. I remember taking a gym bag to the bank, to cash my per diem checks, even back then.

Nigeria has lots of oil, but they have too many political problems to allow for stable production.

The US Arctic National Wildlife Refuge, would supply pretty much all of our petro needs. Our own politics keep us from exploiting it, even though the proposed drilling area is on a coastal shelf, the size of Ohio, and far from the pristine mountains and normal wildlife habitats.

Enough rambling...

Mark

Any of the OPEC countries can sell oil at $30/barrel if the cartel agrees -- and they are a cartel, they agree amongst themselves on production rates and quotas.

They control enough of the oil that can be cheaply developed to be able to set prices.

Some interesting things happen when the price goes from $30/barrel to $150/barrel.

Wells that were too expensive (too slow/used too much energy to pump) at $30 become economically viable at $150/barrel. Here in Southern California there are neighborhoods built on former oil wells, and the people that own the mineral rights (the homeowners don't) are re-opening old wells.

New wells are being drilled in areas that have oil, but it's deep, or it needs a little extra help during refining (i.e. removing sulfur) and wasn't economical, but it is now.

---

But its all about money.

How could the market make money if you could fill your car in the garden just with water.

The car companies don't care about "the market" in general. They're in the business of selling cars.

High fuel prices are an opportunity to sell fuel efficient cars. Low fuel prices are an opportunity to sell bigger, less efficient cars.

Respond to (or predict) the market correctly, and your car company will do well.

If that means filling your car from the garden hose, great!

The problem is that water does not burn. You have to do something to make "fuel" out of water and that takes energy -- which you end up buying somewhere.

Wrong Ned sorry.
I´m working in that buisness.
They do care.
Back in the 80s a german mechanic produed a small part to reduce the emission of every car back to zero.
The price was just $15.
So what has happend ?
Mercedes buyed the patent and destroyed it.

So, they have this along with the patented 100-mile-per-gallon carburetor?

Sorry, Mike. Your story just doesn't make sense.

Besides, Mercedes is in the business of selling cars. If they could use a $15 part in place of the rather expensive emission controls they need now, they'd do it in a heartbeat. If they could license the part to every other manufacturer (because they owned the rights) and cash in, they'd price those rights a bit below the expensive emissions systems used now, and make a killing.

Oh it doesn´t make sense?
Because you aren´t in that buisness.
Now they using parts wich they earn €100 per piece.
No sense to you?

No it doesn't make any sense at all.

Mercedes can take that $15 part, use it in place of the 100 euro part, and pocket the difference.

... or they can use the savings to make their cars less expensive than the competitor's car, and make more money by selling more than the competition.

This has nothing to do with the "car" business, and everything to do with business in general. If you can produce a better product for a lower price, you can raise profits and beat your competition in the marketplace.

The only time that fails is in a market that is over-regulated -- where you have a $15 widget but the law mandates that you use a $250 catalytic converter or somesuch.

As others have pointed out, if your mythical $15 widget is patented, then the widget and its' operation is documented in the patent -- which is a public document.

---

But its all about money.

How could the market make money if you could fill your car in the garden just with water.

The car companies don't care about "the market" in general. They're in the business of selling cars.

High fuel prices are an opportunity to sell fuel efficient cars. Low fuel prices are an opportunity to sell bigger, less efficient cars.

Respond to (or predict) the market correctly, and your car company will do well.

If that means filling your car from the garden hose, great!

The problem is that water does not burn. You have to do something to make "fuel" out of water and that takes energy -- which you end up buying somewhere.

Wrong Ned sorry.
I´m working in that buisness.
They do care.
Back in the 80s a german mechanic produed a small part to reduce the emission of every car back to zero.
The price was just $15.
So what has happend ?
Mercedes buyed the patent and destroyed it.

So, they have this along with the patented 100-mile-per-gallon carburetor?

Sorry, Mike. Your story just doesn't make sense.

Besides, Mercedes is in the business of selling cars. If they could use a $15 part in place of the rather expensive emission controls they need now, they'd do it in a heartbeat. If they could license the part to every other manufacturer (because they owned the rights) and cash in, they'd price those rights a bit below the expensive emissions systems used now, and make a killing.

Oh it doesn´t make sense?
Because you aren´t in that buisness.
Now they using parts wich they earn €100 per piece.
No sense to you?

My original statement is that the car companies don't care about the oil companies, just about selling cars.

Your "evidence" that I'm wrong is the existence of some $15 part that makes a car run cleaner -- it's nice, but it doesn't say anything about what kind of fuel the car uses.

---

Sorry Ned.
But you have no idea.

You have around 5000 parts in one car.Lets say.
I´m selling steering wheels.
The price is calculated by the price of each part plus a charge of 50%.
Lets say my wheel costs in 2000 $200.
Now it costs maybe $30 but the car isn´t any cheaper.
So they are rising the profits every year.
Each company of the world with every parts.
We had to set 800 workers free in 2005 to pay the costs of the manufaturers.

Believe it or not.

---

With each crime and every kindness we birth our future.

But its all about money.

How could the market make money if you could fill your car in the garden just with water.

The car companies don't care about "the market" in general. They're in the business of selling cars.

High fuel prices are an opportunity to sell fuel efficient cars. Low fuel prices are an opportunity to sell bigger, less efficient cars.

Respond to (or predict) the market correctly, and your car company will do well.

If that means filling your car from the garden hose, great!

The problem is that water does not burn. You have to do something to make "fuel" out of water and that takes energy -- which you end up buying somewhere.

Wrong Ned sorry.
I´m working in that buisness.
They do care.
Back in the 80s a german mechanic produed a small part to reduce the emission of every car back to zero.
The price was just $15.
So what has happend ?
Mercedes buyed the patent and destroyed it.

So, they have this along with the patented 100-mile-per-gallon carburetor?

Sorry, Mike. Your story just doesn't make sense.

Besides, Mercedes is in the business of selling cars. If they could use a $15 part in place of the rather expensive emission controls they need now, they'd do it in a heartbeat. If they could license the part to every other manufacturer (because they owned the rights) and cash in, they'd price those rights a bit below the expensive emissions systems used now, and make a killing.

Oh it doesn´t make sense?
Because you aren´t in that buisness.
Now they using parts wich they earn €100 per piece.
No sense to you?

My original statement is that the car companies don't care about the oil companies, just about selling cars.

Your "evidence" that I'm wrong is the existence of some $15 part that makes a car run cleaner -- it's nice, but it doesn't say anything about what kind of fuel the car uses.

Thats correct, but just was an example.

---

With each crime and every kindness we birth our future.

But its all about money.

How could the market make money if you could fill your car in the garden just with water.

The car companies don't care about "the market" in general. They're in the business of selling cars.

High fuel prices are an opportunity to sell fuel efficient cars. Low fuel prices are an opportunity to sell bigger, less efficient cars.

Respond to (or predict) the market correctly, and your car company will do well.

If that means filling your car from the garden hose, great!

The problem is that water does not burn. You have to do something to make "fuel" out of water and that takes energy -- which you end up buying somewhere.

Wrong Ned sorry.
I´m working in that buisness.
They do care.
Back in the 80s a german mechanic produed a small part to reduce the emission of every car back to zero.
The price was just $15.
So what has happend ?
Mercedes buyed the patent and destroyed it.

So, they have this along with the patented 100-mile-per-gallon carburetor?

Sorry, Mike. Your story just doesn't make sense.

Besides, Mercedes is in the business of selling cars. If they could use a $15 part in place of the rather expensive emission controls they need now, they'd do it in a heartbeat. If they could license the part to every other manufacturer (because they owned the rights) and cash in, they'd price those rights a bit below the expensive emissions systems used now, and make a killing.

Oh it doesn´t make sense?
Because you aren´t in that buisness.
Now they using parts wich they earn €100 per piece.
No sense to you?

My original statement is that the car companies don't care about the oil companies, just about selling cars.

Your "evidence" that I'm wrong is the existence of some $15 part that makes a car run cleaner -- it's nice, but it doesn't say anything about what kind of fuel the car uses.

there is still the thermodynamics problem with water as a fuel. Firts you have to break the water into oxygen and hydrogen. Then you have to combine them again. No step in this process is even 1005 efficient. Therefore, you are going to lose gasoline mileage, not gain gasoline mileage.

---

BOINC WIKI

No John this part is working.
The problem is thermal.
I´ve seen a working model.

---

With each crime and every kindness we birth our future.