Before the big bang?


log in

Advanced search

Message boards : Science (non-SETI) : Before the big bang?

Author Message
Profile Chris S
Volunteer tester
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 19 Nov 00
Posts: 31130
Credit: 11,296,012
RAC: 20,062
United Kingdom
Message 764060 - Posted: 7 Jun 2008, 11:45:20 UTC

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7440217.stm
____________
Damsel Rescuer, Kitty Patron, Uli Devotee, Julie Supporter
ES99 Admirer, Raccoon Friend, Anniet fan, RJ45 Yay!


Taurus
Send message
Joined: 3 Sep 07
Posts: 324
Credit: 114,815
RAC: 0
United States
Message 764842 - Posted: 8 Jun 2008, 17:25:24 UTC

Fascinating article, thanks for sharing.

Profile William Rothamel
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 25 Oct 06
Posts: 2465
Credit: 1,171,916
RAC: 103
United States
Message 765058 - Posted: 9 Jun 2008, 0:26:36 UTC

I don't think that the laws of Physics are completely reversible as implied by this article. Apparently they whom state this are unfamiliar with the second law of thermodynamics which I feel is the most unshakeable law in all of Physics.

There can be no reversal in time or any other process without adding energy. All processes move to a higher amount of disorder, A broken glass won't suddenly jump up back on the counter and rearrange a bunch of shards back into a normal drinking glass.

Time is an illusion that allows us to order the events in our lives. If you have to admit that special relativity is right then you have to admit that people traveling fast relative to a stationary observer on Earth will age more slowly. they cannot travel back into their past to change events in the current time.

Taurus
Send message
Joined: 3 Sep 07
Posts: 324
Credit: 114,815
RAC: 0
United States
Message 766875 - Posted: 12 Jun 2008, 14:12:18 UTC - in response to Message 765058.
Last modified: 12 Jun 2008, 14:12:51 UTC

I don't think that the laws of Physics are completely reversible as implied by this article. Apparently they whom state this are unfamiliar with the second law of thermodynamics which I feel is the most unshakeable law in all of Physics.

There can be no reversal in time or any other process without adding energy. All processes move to a higher amount of disorder, A broken glass won't suddenly jump up back on the counter and rearrange a bunch of shards back into a normal drinking glass.

Time is an illusion that allows us to order the events in our lives. If you have to admit that special relativity is right then you have to admit that people traveling fast relative to a stationary observer on Earth will age more slowly. they cannot travel back into their past to change events in the current time.



But aren't the laws of physics only applicable within the confines of this universe?....and aren't they actually *determined* by the state of our universe?

For example, if the universe had critical mass and shrunk back in on itself in a "Big Crunch", then presumably the law of thermodynamics would only work in reverse. Stephen Hawking talks about Thermodynamics working in reverse this way in A Brief History of Time.

It seems that observational evidence suggests a "Big Crunch" will not happen, but the point remains; our universe's physics were determined at the moment of the big bang by whatever conditions and parameters led to the specific way it unfolded.

Profile Dr. C.E.T.I.
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 29 Feb 00
Posts: 15993
Credit: 690,597
RAC: 10
United States
Message 766877 - Posted: 12 Jun 2008, 14:21:54 UTC - in response to Message 764060.


. . . Much Appreciated Post Chris - Thank You Sir!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7440217.stm



____________
BOINC Wiki . . .

Science Status Page . . .

Profile William Rothamel
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 25 Oct 06
Posts: 2465
Credit: 1,171,916
RAC: 103
United States
Message 767396 - Posted: 13 Jun 2008, 11:35:36 UTC - in response to Message 766875.

I don't think that the laws of Physics are completely reversible as implied by this article. Apparently they whom state this are unfamiliar with the second law of thermodynamics which I feel is the most unshakeable law in all of Physics.

There can be no reversal in time or any other process without adding energy. All processes move to a higher amount of disorder, A broken glass won't suddenly jump up back on the counter and rearrange a bunch of shards back into a normal drinking glass.

Time is an illusion that allows us to order the events in our lives. If you have to admit that special relativity is right then you have to admit that people traveling fast relative to a stationary observer on Earth will age more slowly. they cannot travel back into their past to change events in the current time.



But aren't the laws of physics only applicable within the confines of this universe?....and aren't they actually *determined* by the state of our universe?

For example, if the universe had critical mass and shrunk back in on itself in a "Big Crunch", then presumably the law of thermodynamics would only work in reverse. Stephen Hawking talks about Thermodynamics working in reverse this way in A Brief History of Time.

It seems that observational evidence suggests a "Big Crunch" will not happen, but the point remains; our universe's physics were determined at the moment of the big bang by whatever conditions and parameters led to the specific way it unfolded.


I don't think that if gravity took over and the universe started contracting that any "Law" would be reversed. The non relativistic mass would not change. The broken glass is not going to jump up off the floor and reassemble itself on the table top. Time will not run backwards and we will not all return to our mother's wombs. the physics were determined or rather you could say the "laws" of physics determined what happened at and after the big bang--we are still looking to fully discover, refine and understand these laws.

Profile William Rothamel
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 25 Oct 06
Posts: 2465
Credit: 1,171,916
RAC: 103
United States
Message 769334 - Posted: 17 Jun 2008, 1:01:14 UTC

along these lines:

Le'maitre was a Belgian priest and astronomer who first put a finger on Einstein's Cosmic Constant. Thus, gravity did slow down the expansion from the Big Bang during past eras. About 6 billion years ago the expansion began to accelerate as the Vacuum Energy overcame diluted gravitational effects. So we never will see a big crunch.

As more space is created--more vacuum energy is created so the expansion will accelerate.

Profile ML1
Volunteer tester
Send message
Joined: 25 Nov 01
Posts: 8266
Credit: 4,071,480
RAC: 330
United Kingdom
Message 769424 - Posted: 17 Jun 2008, 8:26:22 UTC - in response to Message 769334.

... As more space is created--more vacuum energy is created so the expansion will accelerate.

Except that energy can neither be created nor destroyed, it is merely converted.

So where's this 'extra' energy coming from?...

Keep searchin',
Martin

____________
See new freedom: Mageia4
Linux Voice See & try out your OS Freedom!
The Future is what We make IT (GPLv3)

Profile William Rothamel
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 25 Oct 06
Posts: 2465
Credit: 1,171,916
RAC: 103
United States
Message 769446 - Posted: 17 Jun 2008, 10:16:54 UTC - in response to Message 769424.

... As more space is created--more vacuum energy is created so the expansion will accelerate.

Except that energy can neither be created nor destroyed, it is merely converted.

So where's this 'extra' energy coming from?...

Keep searchin',
Martin


I know this sounds like pseudo-science which I abhor. I think the answer is that we have invented (Discovered ?) Quantum Mechanics. The old notion of "you can't create something out of nothing" is wrong.

In Quantum mechanics particle/antiparticle pairs are popping into and out of existence continuously. In this case the positive and negative energy balance. You create capital by borrowing from the bank and of course you are initially equal since you have a corresponding debt. Where does the energy of the vacuum come from? I don't know and from all of the reading I've done I don't think anyone knows. Perhaps it precipitates from some other form of energy which was always there from the big bang. perhaps it comes from our suspected other dimensions and leaks through via a particle or string that vibrates in other dimensions.

I certainly can't explain it --I do believe that the universe is expanding at an increasing rate and therefore a repulsive pressure (anti-gravity) is increasing. Perhaps it was always there and now asserts itself since gravity becomes weaker--diluted by the spreading out of mass and less gravity per unit volume of space.

There must be other thoughts on this --anyone

Message boards : Science (non-SETI) : Before the big bang?

Copyright © 2014 University of California