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Profile William Rothamel
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Message 728932 - Posted: 22 Mar 2008, 2:58:41 UTC
Last modified: 22 Mar 2008, 3:07:40 UTC

Every spring it is the same old story--massive flooding along various low-lying areas along major river basins. This is hardly news worthy of National television. Every year we see the poor folk who essentially don't have enough sense to come in out of the rain (i.e. not build their homes along a flood plane or high tide mark). there is the anguished wringing of hands and wondering when the Federal Government will come to the rescue.

Well maybe there is a role for the Federal Government (there !! I've said it) with control of this vital feed stock. We will eventually need the massive amounts of water in the Spring runoff to irrigate our fertile croplands and valleys. Flood control, storage and re-distribution of this water is becoming a necessity.

As we hear that our drinking water is becoming increasingly polluted, I reflect that we may need massive Public Works projects to create and distribute desalinized seawater as well. I can see an effort on a scale of the Interstate highway system to move massive amounts of water into reservoirs, lakes and rivers where it can irrigate currently barren real estate.

Right now the bulk of flood, rain and melt water associated with the floods we see now in Dallas and the Eastern half of the Country eventually flows to the sea without any beneficial use derived for needs that exist remotely to the current disasters.

What do you all think --in addition to massive efforts into nuclear power--this may be very important for the long-range success of our society.

Regards,

DADDIO

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Message 728942 - Posted: 22 Mar 2008, 3:37:25 UTC
Last modified: 22 Mar 2008, 3:59:27 UTC

I hope someone somewhere is thinking along the same lines as you,

The world is changing, always. Always a good idea to start moving on positive projects like this before it's needed. (Though, this is already needed for multiple reasons.) Lots of proven techniques for treating dry regions of our Nation using Permaculture gardening and terrain texturing.

I'd like to see spill gates set up along known flood-ways, tucking water away safely while eliminating/minimizing flood damage. Thoughts out to the people effected and killed this year.
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Message 735622 - Posted: 7 Apr 2008, 1:05:03 UTC

Example?
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Message 736311 - Posted: 9 Apr 2008, 2:32:13 UTC

This year in particular much of the flooding is in the 500 year floodplain. My heart goes out to those affected.
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Message 736322 - Posted: 9 Apr 2008, 2:49:12 UTC - in response to Message 736311.

This year in particular much of the flooding is in the 500 year floodplain. My heart goes out to those affected.


I used to live on a 100 year flood plain which flooded every single year. It was in Illinois in the Sangamon river basin.

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Message 739642 - Posted: 16 Apr 2008, 2:38:45 UTC - in response to Message 728932.

Every spring it is the same old story--massive flooding along various low-lying areas along major river basins. This is hardly news worthy of National television. Every year we see the poor folk who essentially don't have enough sense to come in out of the rain (i.e. not build their homes along a flood plane or high tide mark). there is the anguished wringing of hands and wondering when the Federal Government will come to the rescue.

Well maybe there is a role for the Federal Government (there !! I've said it) with control of this vital feed stock. We will eventually need the massive amounts of water in the Spring runoff to irrigate our fertile croplands and valleys. Flood control, storage and re-distribution of this water is becoming a necessity.

As we hear that our drinking water is becoming increasingly polluted, I reflect that we may need massive Public Works projects to create and distribute desalinized seawater as well. I can see an effort on a scale of the Interstate highway system to move massive amounts of water into reservoirs, lakes and rivers where it can irrigate currently barren real estate.

Right now the bulk of flood, rain and melt water associated with the floods we see now in Dallas and the Eastern half of the Country eventually flows to the sea without any beneficial use derived for needs that exist remotely to the current disasters.

What do you all think --in addition to massive efforts into nuclear power--this may be very important for the long-range success of our society.

Regards,

DADDIO


Might I suggest taking a page from the operational measures as solidly in place in the Netherlands. As some may be aware of, The Netherlands is essentially both estuary as well as floodplane for at least two major European rivers and a fair number of minor ones.
Furthermore the Netherlands is for a not insignificant portion well below sea-level. However, flood related damage is relatively rare and certainly does not occur on a yearly basis like in the United States.
These measures are a combination of an intricate network of canals, levees, locks, dikes and pump-stations as well as a finely tuned management system that is overseen by the state-level(equivalent of Federal level) and operated at Provincial levels (somewhat like US.States).
The management and maintenance branch is part of the 'Ministery van Verkeer en Waterstaat' (Ministry of Traffic and Water-management) has the same function of the US Army-Corps of Engineers, except that the Dutch version actually works. It operates hand-in-glove with the Dutch National Geological society, which in turn is part of the responsibility of the Dutch Ministry of Economics. Having wisely learned from previously made mistakes, there is no room for private enterprise in this model.
In order to assure the supply of fresh-water, in the 1930's a part of the sea was dammed-off and turned from a salt-water body of water (previously called: Zuiderzee) into an artificial fresh water lake (now called: IJsselmeer), parts of which were later turned into Land-reclamation areas in order to create more room for agriculture and residential overflow areas for the city of Amsterdam.
Another example of actively and successfully managed water-levels and flood-disaster prevention are the Delta-works that were undertaken after the last major flooding in 1953 which took place in the province of Zeeland. (Zeeland's motto has been for centuries: LUCTOR ET EMERGO = I STRUGGLE AND EMERGE).
Nice little sidenote: In the 1970's, the Dutch suggested and developed a similar plan for containment, management and disaster prevention for the Mississippi estuary and the city of New Orleans. This was rejected because it was found to be $10Million too expensive. Whether that system would have been able to withstand hurricane Katrina, is and will remain an academic matter, but it certainly did not contain plans for flimsy levees built on unstable silt as were in place when Katrina hit.
As you see, all that you put forward has been successfully and out of pure necessity done by the Dutch. Many years ago, I might add, since they started doing that around the year 900 AD (some even mention 650 AD).

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Message 739817 - Posted: 16 Apr 2008, 14:12:43 UTC - in response to Message 739642.
Last modified: 16 Apr 2008, 14:14:38 UTC

Might I suggest taking a page from the operational measures as solidly in place in the Netherlands. As some may be aware of, The Netherlands is essentially both estuary as well as floodplane for at least two major European rivers and a fair number of minor ones.
Furthermore the Netherlands is for a not insignificant portion well below sea-level. However, flood related damage is relatively rare and certainly does not occur on a yearly basis like in the United States.
These measures are a combination of an intricate network of canals, levees, locks, dikes and pump-stations as well as a finely tuned management system that is overseen by the state-level(equivalent of Federal level) and operated at Provincial levels (somewhat like US.States).
The management and maintenance branch is part of the 'Ministery van Verkeer en Waterstaat' (Ministry of Traffic and Water-management) has the same function of the US Army-Corps of Engineers, except that the Dutch version actually works. It operates hand-in-glove with the Dutch National Geological society, which in turn is part of the responsibility of the Dutch Ministry of Economics. Having wisely learned from previously made mistakes, there is no room for private enterprise in this model.
In order to assure the supply of fresh-water, in the 1930's a part of the sea was dammed-off and turned from a salt-water body of water (previously called: Zuiderzee) into an artificial fresh water lake (now called: IJsselmeer), parts of which were later turned into Land-reclamation areas in order to create more room for agriculture and residential overflow areas for the city of Amsterdam.
Another example of actively and successfully managed water-levels and flood-disaster prevention are the Delta-works that were undertaken after the last major flooding in 1953 which took place in the province of Zeeland. (Zeeland's motto has been for centuries: LUCTOR ET EMERGO = I STRUGGLE AND EMERGE).
Nice little sidenote: In the 1970's, the Dutch suggested and developed a similar plan for containment, management and disaster prevention for the Mississippi estuary and the city of New Orleans. This was rejected because it was found to be $10Million too expensive. Whether that system would have been able to withstand hurricane Katrina, is and will remain an academic matter, but it certainly did not contain plans for flimsy levees built on unstable silt as were in place when Katrina hit.
As you see, all that you put forward has been successfully and out of pure necessity done by the Dutch. Many years ago, I might add, since they started doing that around the year 900 AD (some even mention 650 AD).
[/quote]

Reine,

Thank you for your comments. We Americans hope that we are not too proud, as a nation, nor too ignorant to learn from the Low Country and the French. These countries have mobilized their National intent to anticipate and solve problems to the betterment of their societies.

With the coming elections here in the States, maybe we will get an administration that leads, inspires and makes our public sector function and earn it's keep. I view energy, food production and abundant, clean water as key success factors which need massive initiatives now.

Regards,

Bill

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Message 740211 - Posted: 17 Apr 2008, 1:15:37 UTC - in response to Message 739642.

Every spring it is the same old story--massive flooding along various low-lying areas along major river basins. This is hardly news worthy of National television. Every year we see the poor folk who essentially don't have enough sense to come in out of the rain (i.e. not build their homes along a flood plane or high tide mark). there is the anguished wringing of hands and wondering when the Federal Government will come to the rescue.

Well maybe there is a role for the Federal Government (there !! I've said it) with control of this vital feed stock. We will eventually need the massive amounts of water in the Spring runoff to irrigate our fertile croplands and valleys. Flood control, storage and re-distribution of this water is becoming a necessity.

As we hear that our drinking water is becoming increasingly polluted, I reflect that we may need massive Public Works projects to create and distribute desalinized seawater as well. I can see an effort on a scale of the Interstate highway system to move massive amounts of water into reservoirs, lakes and rivers where it can irrigate currently barren real estate.

Right now the bulk of flood, rain and melt water associated with the floods we see now in Dallas and the Eastern half of the Country eventually flows to the sea without any beneficial use derived for needs that exist remotely to the current disasters.

What do you all think --in addition to massive efforts into nuclear power--this may be very important for the long-range success of our society.

Regards,

DADDIO


Might I suggest taking a page from the operational measures as solidly in place in the Netherlands. As some may be aware of, The Netherlands is essentially both estuary as well as floodplane for at least two major European rivers and a fair number of minor ones.
Furthermore the Netherlands is for a not insignificant portion well below sea-level. However, flood related damage is relatively rare and certainly does not occur on a yearly basis like in the United States.
These measures are a combination of an intricate network of canals, levees, locks, dikes and pump-stations as well as a finely tuned management system that is overseen by the state-level(equivalent of Federal level) and operated at Provincial levels (somewhat like US.States).
The management and maintenance branch is part of the 'Ministery van Verkeer en Waterstaat' (Ministry of Traffic and Water-management) has the same function of the US Army-Corps of Engineers, except that the Dutch version actually works. It operates hand-in-glove with the Dutch National Geological society, which in turn is part of the responsibility of the Dutch Ministry of Economics. Having wisely learned from previously made mistakes, there is no room for private enterprise in this model.
In order to assure the supply of fresh-water, in the 1930's a part of the sea was dammed-off and turned from a salt-water body of water (previously called: Zuiderzee) into an artificial fresh water lake (now called: IJsselmeer), parts of which were later turned into Land-reclamation areas in order to create more room for agriculture and residential overflow areas for the city of Amsterdam.
Another example of actively and successfully managed water-levels and flood-disaster prevention are the Delta-works that were undertaken after the last major flooding in 1953 which took place in the province of Zeeland. (Zeeland's motto has been for centuries: LUCTOR ET EMERGO = I STRUGGLE AND EMERGE).
Nice little sidenote: In the 1970's, the Dutch suggested and developed a similar plan for containment, management and disaster prevention for the Mississippi estuary and the city of New Orleans. This was rejected because it was found to be $10Million too expensive. Whether that system would have been able to withstand hurricane Katrina, is and will remain an academic matter, but it certainly did not contain plans for flimsy levees built on unstable silt as were in place when Katrina hit.
As you see, all that you put forward has been successfully and out of pure necessity done by the Dutch. Many years ago, I might add, since they started doing that around the year 900 AD (some even mention 650 AD).



''Having wisely learned from previously made mistakes, there is no room for private enterprise in this model.
In order to assure the supply of fresh-water, in the 1930's a part of the sea was dammed-off and turned from a salt-water body of water (previously called: Zuiderzee) into an artificial fresh water lake (now called: IJsselmeer), parts of which were later turned into Land-reclamation areas in order to create more room for agriculture and residential overflow areas...''

The Dutch government could offer the boers of south Africa and Zimbabwe that particular expertise and they could then use the irrigation systems enriching the drought areas and regions. Farming and the cost of food could then plummet and the Dutch government could of solved an international crisis {the boers could solve African famine}.

Such historical knowledge is perhaps valid. The world gazes while humanitarians have not been educated.





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Message 740750 - Posted: 18 Apr 2008, 4:25:51 UTC - in response to Message 740211.

Every spring it is the same old story--massive flooding along various low-lying areas along major river basins. This is hardly news worthy of National television. Every year we see the poor folk who essentially don't have enough sense to come in out of the rain (i.e. not build their homes along a flood plane or high tide mark). there is the anguished wringing of hands and wondering when the Federal Government will come to the rescue.

Well maybe there is a role for the Federal Government (there !! I've said it) with control of this vital feed stock. We will eventually need the massive amounts of water in the Spring runoff to irrigate our fertile croplands and valleys. Flood control, storage and re-distribution of this water is becoming a necessity.

As we hear that our drinking water is becoming increasingly polluted, I reflect that we may need massive Public Works projects to create and distribute desalinized seawater as well. I can see an effort on a scale of the Interstate highway system to move massive amounts of water into reservoirs, lakes and rivers where it can irrigate currently barren real estate.

Right now the bulk of flood, rain and melt water associated with the floods we see now in Dallas and the Eastern half of the Country eventually flows to the sea without any beneficial use derived for needs that exist remotely to the current disasters.

What do you all think --in addition to massive efforts into nuclear power--this may be very important for the long-range success of our society.

Regards,

DADDIO


Might I suggest taking a page from the operational measures as solidly in place in the Netherlands. As some may be aware of, The Netherlands is essentially both estuary as well as floodplane for at least two major European rivers and a fair number of minor ones.
Furthermore the Netherlands is for a not insignificant portion well below sea-level. However, flood related damage is relatively rare and certainly does not occur on a yearly basis like in the United States.
These measures are a combination of an intricate network of canals, levees, locks, dikes and pump-stations as well as a finely tuned management system that is overseen by the state-level(equivalent of Federal level) and operated at Provincial levels (somewhat like US.States).
The management and maintenance branch is part of the 'Ministery van Verkeer en Waterstaat' (Ministry of Traffic and Water-management) has the same function of the US Army-Corps of Engineers, except that the Dutch version actually works. It operates hand-in-glove with the Dutch National Geological society, which in turn is part of the responsibility of the Dutch Ministry of Economics. Having wisely learned from previously made mistakes, there is no room for private enterprise in this model.
In order to assure the supply of fresh-water, in the 1930's a part of the sea was dammed-off and turned from a salt-water body of water (previously called: Zuiderzee) into an artificial fresh water lake (now called: IJsselmeer), parts of which were later turned into Land-reclamation areas in order to create more room for agriculture and residential overflow areas for the city of Amsterdam.
Another example of actively and successfully managed water-levels and flood-disaster prevention are the Delta-works that were undertaken after the last major flooding in 1953 which took place in the province of Zeeland. (Zeeland's motto has been for centuries: LUCTOR ET EMERGO = I STRUGGLE AND EMERGE).
Nice little sidenote: In the 1970's, the Dutch suggested and developed a similar plan for containment, management and disaster prevention for the Mississippi estuary and the city of New Orleans. This was rejected because it was found to be $10Million too expensive. Whether that system would have been able to withstand hurricane Katrina, is and will remain an academic matter, but it certainly did not contain plans for flimsy levees built on unstable silt as were in place when Katrina hit.
As you see, all that you put forward has been successfully and out of pure necessity done by the Dutch. Many years ago, I might add, since they started doing that around the year 900 AD (some even mention 650 AD).



''Having wisely learned from previously made mistakes, there is no room for private enterprise in this model.
In order to assure the supply of fresh-water, in the 1930's a part of the sea was dammed-off and turned from a salt-water body of water (previously called: Zuiderzee) into an artificial fresh water lake (now called: IJsselmeer), parts of which were later turned into Land-reclamation areas in order to create more room for agriculture and residential overflow areas...''

The Dutch government could offer the boers of south Africa and Zimbabwe that particular expertise and they could then use the irrigation systems enriching the drought areas and regions. Farming and the cost of food could then plummet and the Dutch government could of solved an international crisis {the boers could solve African famine}.

Such historical knowledge is perhaps valid. The world gazes while humanitarians have not been educated.


Such help was and to my knowledge, presently still is extended to the regions you mentioned by you. One can lead a horse to the water, but to make it actually drink is an entirely different matter, I guess.

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Message 741720 - Posted: 20 Apr 2008, 4:12:44 UTC

Why should they bother going through all that work when they will eventually just start siphoning water from the Great lakes anyway??

There has been a bit of a push from some of the drier areas of the country. The attitude seems to be " Look at that. They have all that water ( Never mind the fact that lake levels have been falling for years ) and they refuse to share it with us poor saps who built our city in the middle of a desert!!! "
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Message 744446 - Posted: 26 Apr 2008, 12:41:18 UTC - in response to Message 740750.

One can lead a horse to the water, but to make it actually drink is an entirely different matter, I guess.


Drink? oops, I always thought it was You can lead a horse to water, but you need to tie a whole swag of rocks on him to make him sink! ;)

Seriously though, water issues are abundant everywhere. Here where I live the dams for the power stations are 50% full, which is a whole lot better than the 30% they bottomed out at a year ago. Not too far away from them is the dam that supplies water to this area and the upper blue mountains, and it has been subjected to very little rain, so has dropped to a low of under 17.5% as of last week, and continues to drop at about 0.3% to 0.5% per week.

They say that areas on the east coast of Australia have received excellent rainfalls, but it's not in the catchment areas, so while rain continues to be wasted in some areas, other areas remain on extremely severe water restrictions.
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Message 744508 - Posted: 26 Apr 2008, 16:08:18 UTC - in response to Message 744446.
Last modified: 26 Apr 2008, 16:08:40 UTC

One can lead a horse to the water, but to make it actually drink is an entirely different matter, I guess.


Drink? oops, I always thought it was You can lead a horse to water, but you need to tie a whole swag of rocks on him to make him sink! ;)

Seriously though, water issues are abundant everywhere. Here where I live the dams for the power stations are 50% full, which is a whole lot better than the 30% they bottomed out at a year ago. Not too far away from them is the dam that supplies water to this area and the upper blue mountains, and it has been subjected to very little rain, so has dropped to a low of under 17.5% as of last week, and continues to drop at about 0.3% to 0.5% per week.

They say that areas on the east coast of Australia have received excellent rainfalls, but it's not in the catchment areas, so while rain continues to be wasted in some areas, other areas remain on extremely severe water restrictions.


Just had the first nice rinse here in Adelaide for a while, You'll be gettin' some storms soon I reckon.

Jason
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Message 745380 - Posted: 28 Apr 2008, 8:41:12 UTC

Had a small shower here today and it actually kicked up the dust.
Strange sight.
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Message 774103 - Posted: 27 Jun 2008, 2:04:57 UTC

Time to revive this thread.

We have:
Floods in the Midwest along the Mississippi Basin due to heavy spring/summer rains
Brush fires in California due to no rain.

SO WHAT"S NEW--it's hardly worthy of news time on television--same story every year.

In the far future we will have to control the massive amounts of water and move it to where it's needed. for example Atlanta is a huge city of 4 million or so with no big river--they are going dry in a big way.

We will need to undertake:

Massive public works to fix levees
Create more reservoir capacity
Build aquaducts --if the Romans can do it then so can we
Dig some canals
Build nuclear plants to fuel desalinization plants
Figure out how to irrigate and create fire breaks in california

Florida and California need to find massive amounts of water to take care of the daily influx of new residents and tourists.

Maybe just like Mars we need to build CANALE for real this time.

Another example of being asleep at the leadership switch for way too long.

Regards,

Bill


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Message 774112 - Posted: 27 Jun 2008, 2:32:02 UTC

I agree on all but the nuclear plants,

Our countries infrastructure is hurting bad. We need this project!
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Message 774127 - Posted: 27 Jun 2008, 3:21:51 UTC

William Rothamel wrote:

"In the far future we will have to control the massive amounts of water and move it to where it's needed. for example Atlanta is a huge city of 4 million or so with no big river--they are going dry in a big way.

We will need to undertake:

Massive public works to fix levees
Create more reservoir capacity
Build aquaducts --if the Romans can do it then so can we
Dig some canals
Build nuclear plants to fuel desalinization plants
Figure out how to irrigate and create fire breaks in california

Florida and California need to find massive amounts of water to take care of the daily influx of new residents and tourists.

Maybe just like Mars we need to build CANALE for real this time.

Another example of being asleep at the leadership switch for way too long."

- - - -

Bill, I certainly agree with your last statement. They get away with it because most of us don't think long-term. Foolish us!

I also agree that we're going to need to utilize nuclear power in a big way. I opposed it for years because of the waste issues, but time's up now. It's the the best high-output non-fossil fuel source we have available. Wind and solar can help, but we need nuclear power on a big scale for perhaps the next century or so, until we can come up with something better, e.g. fusion reactors.

However, I think it's totally irresponsible to ship water from one ecosystem, thereby damaging or destroying it, just to water another. Hords of people choose to live on the California coast, or in landlocked Atlanta, or Florida, or in Las Vegas. Fine. But those who make that choice need to find themselves a water supply, and stealing existing freshwater shouldn't be one of the options. Fresh water is a rare commodity on this planet. Those who live in places like that need to step up to the costs of desalinating seawater, not squandering existing supplies of fresh water.

Levees... Bill, the Army Corps of Engineers is in the business of building ditches. They've tried their best to turn the Upper Mississippi and associated river systems into ditches. That might work if nature were more predictable, but it's not, so it doesn't. A river needs more slack than we'd like to give it. We want to try to take over that cropland and prime real estate. Well, we may get to use it on a shared basis, but anything more is a fool's errand.

As a species, we need to honor sustainable ecology and give up the conciet that we can breed like rabbits and live wherever we like, however we like. If we don't, we'll suffer the fate of all species who overrun the carrying capacity of their ecosystem. Our population will be managed. The only question is if we're going to do it ourselves, or leave to nature.
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Message 774357 - Posted: 27 Jun 2008, 18:14:04 UTC

Thank you for your reply Sparrow. I guess i think that most of the flood water is essentially wasted as it finds it's way to the Gulf--it probably becomes polluted along he way as well. People there would be happy to have billions of gallons diverted I am sure.

We already have levees --we are sort of trying to keep our lives and property safe.
People already live in California--they won't want to keep burning up every time someone tosses a cigarette or there is a lightning strike. Fire breaks around subdivisions just make good sense.

Atlanta is going dry and there are almost four million people there.

In the future we may want and need the desserts to bloom. We may be starting up planned cities in these areas to escape the tangled mess of our older cities. Massive desalinization is already starting up Down Under and in Europe as well.

Public works that are well managed will probably help our economy in the near and long term.

Maybe someone can figure out how to fund these things and to manage them effectively ??

regards,

DADDIO

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Message 774624 - Posted: 28 Jun 2008, 7:19:19 UTC - in response to Message 774357.


Maybe someone can figure out how to fund these things and to manage them effectively ??

regards,

DADDIO



How much money have we spent in Iraq and Afghanistan so far?



.
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Message 774680 - Posted: 28 Jun 2008, 9:42:15 UTC - in response to Message 774624.
Last modified: 28 Jun 2008, 9:43:14 UTC


Maybe someone can figure out how to fund these things and to manage them effectively ??

regards,

DADDIO



How much money have we spent in Iraq and Afghanistan so far? .


Yes, proves we have trouble managing any sizable undertaking cost effectively. You can see it at the Post Office and elsewhere --Where there is no profit motive there is poor performance especially when someone else is picking up the Bill and there is no immediate measure of performance or process improvement.

Can we undertake massive Public Works and figure out how to have a profit and performance motivation ??

Regards,

Bill

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Message 774695 - Posted: 28 Jun 2008, 10:02:24 UTC

I see what you mean,

It doesn't help when 2.3 trillion dollars disappears:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kpWqdPMjmo

No accountability is one of our problems.
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"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

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