radiometers and the expanding universe |
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Message boards : Science (non-SETI) : radiometers and the expanding universe
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So, I was remembering back to when I was playing with my dad's childhood radiometer (that bulblike scienctific instrument whose vanes spin around when light hits them). It occurred to me that the sun, and all other stars are constantly bombarding the earth (and every other object in the universe) with radiation. | |
| ID: 696325 · | |
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...should correct/clarify: not rotational speed... instead, angular velocity. | |
| ID: 696421 · | |
It also occurred to me that my physics classes always talked about the relationship between two celestial objects in terms the famous inverse square law of gravity, their masses and rotational speed. Of course, the sun and earth are attracting each other through gravity, but because the sun is luminous, is it not also pushing the earth away like the vane of a radiometer? Yes, but negligibly. The solar radiation that strikes the Earth amounts to about 175 petawatts. Suppose the Earth to be a giant mirror, perfectly reflective at all wavelengths, so as to maximize the effect of the radiation pressure. The force on such a mirror would be 2 × 1.75×10^17 W ÷ 3.0×10^8 m/s = 1.17×10^9 N. Now 1.17 giganewtons (131,000 tons) may sound like an impressive force, until you compare it to the gravitational attraction between the Earth and the Sun: 6.67×10^-11 N·m^2/kg^2 × 1.99×10^30 kg × 5.97×10^24 kg ÷ (1.5×10^11 m)^2 = 3.52×10^22 N, many orders of magnitude greater. In fact we don’t know nearly enough decimal places of any of the latter figures to be able to discern so small a difference. And of course the Earth is not a giant mirror: a great deal of the solar energy that strikes it gets converted to heat, one way or another, so has no kinematic effect. ____________ | |
| ID: 696626 · | |
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Back around 1953 I received a miniature Simon & Schuster book on the stars. It said that the solar radiation received at Earth amounts to about 1.5 horsepower per square yard. That compares almost exactly to 175 petawatts for the whole terrestrial disc. But could all this energy be converted into pushing the Earth? I guess that means that if the Earth were completely covered with 100%-efficient solar cells and the skies were perfectly clear those cells could generate 175 petawatts of electricity. | |
| ID: 697048 · | |
Back around 1953 I received a miniature Simon & Schuster book on the stars. It said that the solar radiation received at Earth amounts to about 1.5 horsepower per square yard. That compares almost exactly to 175 petawatts for the whole terrestrial disc. But could all this energy be converted into pushing the Earth? I guess that means that if the Earth were completely covered with 100%-efficient solar cells and the skies were perfectly clear those cells could generate 175 petawatts of electricity. I am probably missing a few facts here, but something has been troubling me about the expanding universe. It is said that space itself is expanding--The evidence for this is the red shift in the absorption lines which creates an effect that is akin to a Doppler effect. The shifted light waves (lowered in frequency) would have less energy since the energy of a light wave is directly proportional to frequency. So the light waves have lost energy supposedly due to the expansion of space. Well --it seems just as likely to me that a light wave when traveling untold trillions of miles will encounter some drag out there in the vacuum--maybe even bumping into stray molecules along the way or otherwise affected by radiation.--maybe allot it to the "Higgs Field" ?. What do you all think---is there further proof that the Universe is expanding (at an increasing rate over time) other than the Red Shift or is it likely that there is a much simpler explanation for the observed Red Shift. Regards, Daddio AKA Bill Rothamel ____________ | |
| ID: 697090 · | |
[…] Well --it seems just as likely to me that a light wave when traveling untold trillions of miles will encounter some drag out there in the vacuum--maybe even bumping into stray molecules along the way or otherwise affected by radiation.--maybe allot it to the "Higgs Field" ?. Such an explanation for cosmological red-shifts was proposed by Fritz Zwicky about 75 years ago. The main problem with this idea is that all known mechanisms by which light loses energy—other than the Doppler effect—would have consequences that are not actually observed. See Ned Wright’s Cosmology Tutorial on “tired light†for some details of the objections. | |
| ID: 697724 · | |
[quote][…] Well --it seems just as likely to me that a light wave when traveling untold trillions of miles will encounter some drag out there in the vacuum--maybe even bumping into stray molecules along the way or otherwise affected by radiation.--maybe allot it to the "Higgs Field" ?. Such an explanation for cosmological red-shifts was proposed by Fritz Zwicky about 75 years ago. The main problem with this idea is that all known mechanisms by which light loses energy—other than the Doppler effect—would have consequences that are not actually observed. See Ned Wright’s Cosmology Tutorial on “tired light†for some details of the objections. [/quoteTHANKYOU-- I will follow up on your reference and continue my puzzlement with less uncertainty I am sure. As for the energy of the vacuum...I am thinking that it takes a lot of energy here on earth to produce a near vacuum--Maybe nature trying to fill the vacuum is the essence of dark energy ____________ | |
| ID: 697897 · | |
many orders of magnitude greater. From something I read recently, isn't '1 Order' 10^1? (As in, 2 order=(2*10^1)*=20*?). I just want to make sure of something while I'm reading this... And of course the Earth is not a giant mirror: a great deal of the solar energy that strikes it gets converted to heat, one way or another, so has no kinematic effect. Just thinking aloud, here... Mass and energy are two ways of looking at "the same thing." Assuming Earth was a 'perfect' mirror, then any light would be converted entirely into momentum (velocity) away from the light source. Any light not converted into momentum would be converted into: 1. Heat (Infrared Light) 2. Light ('Visible' or ultraviolet) 3. Mass (Some form of matter creation- or at least changing particles to higher-mass particles.)
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| ID: 698086 · | |
From something I read recently, isn't '1 Order' 10^1? (As in, 2 order=(2*10^1)*=20*?). I just want to make sure of something while I'm reading this... Orders of magnitude normally refer to the exponent. So 2nd order is 10^2, 3rd is 10^3. ____________ BOINC WIKI BOINCing since 2002/12/8 | |
| ID: 698231 · | |
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Just to expand a bit on what KK wrote, you can compare to figures in orders of magnitude by taking common (base-ten) logarithms. To make my “many†upthread more precise, either:
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| ID: 698803 · | |
Orders of magnitude normally refer to the exponent. So 2nd order is 10^2, 3rd is 10^3. To make my “many†upthread more precise, either: Thanks. ____________ | |
| ID: 699120 · | |
So, I was remembering back to when I was playing with my dad's childhood radiometer (that bulblike scienctific instrument whose vanes spin around when light hits them). It occurred to me that the sun, and all other stars are constantly bombarding the earth (and every other object in the universe) with radiation. no. ok ill add a bit more info, the sun dosnt have a static amount of luminesence, so the push you sugest should go up and down, but there is no sogn of this, so, no it dosnt. | |
| ID: 704831 · | |
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to those that think the univers is pushing at the earth, the earth is a spherical object, though not that spherical and is sourounded by the univers, so energy is pushing from all around, surly most of it is canceling the itself out? | |
| ID: 704835 · | |
Message boards : Science (non-SETI) : radiometers and the expanding universe
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