Importance of the forums to SETI@home funding.
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Importance of the forums to SETI@home funding.
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Eric Korpela   Send message Joined: 3 Apr 99 Posts: 1382 Credit: 54,506,847 RAC: 60 
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Because the question has been asked, I decided to do a little research into the importance of the forums to SETI@home funding. In the past two years, 5487 identifiable SETI@home accounts have donated. Of those, 1018 have posted at least one message to the SETI@home forums. The remaining 4469 have not. This does not include donors who do not have a SETI@home account or did not identify their SETI@home account. The average donation from non-posters was $47.37. The average donation from posters was $47.77. Coincidentally, the posters who donated had posted an average of 47 times. The median, however, was only 4 posts, so most donating posters rarely post. Since 22,716 accounts have posted to the SETI@home forums, 4.5% of posters to the forums have donated, compared with about 0.4% of SETI@home volunteers in general. In the past two years, non-posters have provided 49% of SETI@home funding, poster have provided 13% and donors without accounts (or who did not provide their account info) have provided 38%. There is a slight tendency for amount of donations and tendency to donate to increase with increasing number of posts. People who donated and have also posted more than 1000 times donated an average of $63.41. In addition, 47% of the people who have posted more than 1000 times have donated. Anyway, those are the statistics on posters. We have no easy way to get statistics on readers of the forums who do not post. Eric @SETIEric@qoto.org (Mastodon) 
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 Daniel  Send message Joined: 21 May 07 Posts: 562 Credit: 437,494 RAC: 0
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Interesting stats Eric. Daniel  ID: 688561 · |
Michael     Send message Joined: 21 Aug 99 Posts: 4608 Credit: 7,427,891 RAC: 18
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That sounds about right...because is there a comparison between the number of accounts vs. the number of those accounts who post? ID: 688563 · |
Scary Capitalist  Send message Joined: 21 May 01 Posts: 7404 Credit: 97,085 RAC: 0
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I've been stating that this is true for over a year...perhaps 2. The idea that the forums reflects upon the project in general is a myth. I believe there's a thread for it. Founder of BOINC team Objectivists. Oh the humanity! Rational people crunching data! I did NOT authorize this belly writing! 
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Richard Haselgrove Send message Joined: 4 Jul 99 Posts: 14650 Credit: 200,643,578 RAC: 874 
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It would be interesting to speculate on the role the fora play in attracting non-individual funding (corporate sponsorship or governmental grant income). Argument for: mutal help through Q & A / helpdesk increases the user base (especially through active user retention), without staff overheads. Argument against: time diverted to firefighting reduces scientific output per unit staff time. ID: 688658 · |
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ML1 Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 20252 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20
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Thanks Eric for some interesting numbers. Looks like roughly 10% of active participants have posted on the forums (assuming 200k active). It would be interesting to speculate on the role the fora play in attracting non-individual funding (corporate sponsorship or governmental grant income). I'd add that the forums have stimulated some very determined optimisations and developments for helping the Science. Perhaps some corporate involvement has been spurred from the s@h forums also... And the forums will reflect upon Berkeley regardless of whatever "Freedom of Speech" ideals there might be that then could reflect upon funding, for good or for bad... (Exercise your full freedoms on Usenet and IRC instead?...) Regards, Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) ID: 688681 · |
cRunchy  Send message Joined: 3 Apr 99 Posts: 3555 Credit: 1,920,030 RAC: 3
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Here's a different look at the question: (Please don't shout me down - I value these forums so for me it's natural to respond...) I feel ecconomic quantification of crunchers who post or not is an odd way of looking at people who volunteer! In a sense your findings suggest that if SETI wanted to spare itself effort in dealing with the social and educational forums it would by 'first glance' of your statistics be no worse off by closing them down. In fact by that arguement all SETI would need to do to get it's average per capita donation would be to have a "problem running the software" forum... I am one of your statistical units. I have never donated cash to SETI. Since I started crunching though I have donated something that does have an absolute finacial value to me. I run my PC 99% of the year 24/7. This has meant I've had to replace my systems far far earlier than I would have had to normally. I've had to buy new power supplies when they died. Replace worn fans, drives, CPUs. Replace blown memory.... ect.. ect... My electricity is not free either. Personally I don't know how to quantify that. Maybe $300 per year?... It may not be obvious to those who like to see cash income but what would SETI do if it did not have access to our computers? It would no doubt have to buy time on corporate systems at great expense. Now lets revisit the question: "Importance of the forums to SETI@home funding."... If over the next 10 years 100 people did not stay with SETI because there was no forum SETI would have to fundraise $30,000 ($300 x 100: Example) in computing resources from elsewhere. Not a large amount but then as it seems no real statistical research has been done it might be 10 times that amount... Who knows? .. and what about advertising. Do the forums save time / money by being self selling in terms of bringing in or inviting new people? What would be the cost time value on advertising? What about education. Will SETI keep relying on the educated sector of society to crunch or would it like the idea and ideals of the project to filter outwards. It may be a slow process but I assume even the cafe and political forums help propogate a better understanding of SETI in-amongst the community at large. I think the "Importance of the forums to SETI@home funding" is higher than is being quantified here. I always hoped that scientific endevour had something more qualitative about it. I hope that your set of statistics aren't just another way to construe or say how cumbersome and useless some think these forums are for SETI to carry.. :o( . 
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thorin belvrog  Send message Joined: 29 Sep 06 Posts: 6418 Credit: 8,893 RAC: 0 
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for these statistics: Let's take one of the tiny fora where I am mod. It has 144 registered users (and yes I know, that's tiny.) Ten to twelve of them post quite regularly - between daily and weekly, some several posts a day, some just a few remarks and that's it for a while. But each day, each hour there are 4 to ten guests for each logged-in user. That board is read by more people than just by its posters. Sometimes the others are already registered users who only log in when they want to write something, sometimes (mostly) it's guests who are not yet registered. What do you think happens when it comes to ask for donations? The users will donate - those who can, and I'm sure even the readers will do, since there is (mostly) peace on this board. The realize that there is (sometimes harsh) discussion there, but it's obvious (for everyone) that there is almost no bickering and fighting, at least not more than usually among friends... I sure think that even only a part of the registered users are actually posting, the board have much more influence to how the entire project is seen than the statistics can tell. See the disaster on Predictor@home: What happened on that board had influenced many opinions throughout the entire BOINC universe, the news were spread by all people: users and readers. I bet the admins of that project have a lot more difficulties to gather donations than you actually have here. That's why I'm convinced that each effort to gain a more peaceful SETI@home board (not peaceful like a cemetery, but peaceful like being among friends) - even though only 5 to 10 % of the SETI@home crunchers are actually posting - really will influence the minds of the crunchers whether they (further) donate or not (if they are able to), or if they start to donate at all. Account frozen... ID: 688945 · |
kittyman  Send message Joined: 9 Jul 00 Posts: 51468 Credit: 1,018,363,574 RAC: 1,004
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Well said, and agreed. "Freedom is just Chaos, with better lighting." Alan Dean Foster 
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Angus Send message Joined: 26 May 99 Posts: 459 Credit: 91,013 RAC: 0 
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... all SETI would need to do to get it's average per capita donation would be to have a "problem running the software" forum... Excellent idea ! 
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cRunchy Send message Joined: 3 Apr 99 Posts: 3555 Credit: 1,920,030 RAC: 3
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... all SETI would need to do to get it's average per capita donation would be to have a "problem running the software" forum... That's actually half of my paragraph (Msg: 688944) and not at all what I meant ;o) However let's assume for a moment that it 'might be' an 'excellent idea' and SETI just had one forum that simply dealt with technical questions running SETI@BOINC software... Would the current system of members joining teams still work without a central forum for people to meet in? If we got rid of the 'cafe' because some people thought it useless ecconomically wouldn't the whole system and idea of "SETI Teams" also collapse? . ID: 688967 · |
John Clark  Send message Joined: 29 Sep 99 Posts: 16515 Credit: 4,418,829 RAC: 0
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... all SETI would need to do to get it's average per capita donation would be to have a "problem running the software" forum... In business terms forums, like the Cafe, will have an unquantifiable value as a loss leader to the project, and donations, as a whole. The only way to quantify such a value would be to close forums like the Cafe and Politics, and leave things for a year. The assumption would be the closure will not impact donations, and then do a further analysis of donations and where from. I would quess the drop in donations will be far greater than the 13% statistic might suggest. It's good to be back amongst friends and colleagues  
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Pappa  Send message Joined: 9 Jan 00 Posts: 2562 Credit: 12,301,681 RAC: 0
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Some have stated that they feel various Forums are Important and that the lose of those Forums will cause a loss to the Funds that Seti needs. It has been stated that some people can only afford the machines and the electricity that they donate, which is fine. "We" all work with what we have and Seti would never presume to take anything away from the family of the user that is just getting by. What is needed is as the official word gets announced that everyone that can tells someone that Seti needs help. It then becomes people helping people in what they believe in. At this point I have posted a couple of not yet official notes about donations. "We" together can start letting everyone know there is a need. Then those that might be able to help will be aware. Thank You! Pappa Please consider a Donation to the Seti Project. ID: 689085 · |
Dr. C.E.T.I.  Send message Joined: 29 Feb 00 Posts: 16019 Credit: 794,685 RAC: 0
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. . . hopefully the Message / Link in My Signature helps somewhat also ps - my reference being to those that i tell about SETI@ home / BOINC . . . they venture over and THEY see make an educated gesture towards joining - or not - the decision is left up to them as individuals . . . and the prayer is that THEY see something here @ the Boards that attracts their intellect . . .  BOINC Wiki . . .Science Status Page . . . ID: 689272 · |
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DJStarfox Send message Joined: 23 May 01 Posts: 1066 Credit: 1,226,053 RAC: 2
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Eric posted some interested statistics. However, I identify most with what cRunchy said regarding how every volunteer donates their machine's time, life-span, and electricity costs to the project. There are a few people who donate cash in addition to crunching. While I (or anyone) could make a good argument to close the forums due to "negligible fiscal contributions" to the SETI project, I don't think anyone intended the forums to solicit cash donations. Major funding comes from administrators and researchers making connections to real-world companies, sponsors, and prospective institutions. Secondary but significant funding also comes from private donors. The forums provide support and communication for users/volunteers for various issues they may face: BOINC installation, running SETI, accounts, source code, etc. It's also a great place for the public to ask questions about the project or the project's needs (donations). The reason I donated to SETI in the first place this year was because there were several discussions on project's needs that I read. I saw a need that I could fulfill. I also saw friendly, sincere moderators who took the time to be on the forums replying to others' questions. Therefore, forums are important for the overall health of the project, but they would not exist if there wasn't a funded scientific project supporting them. Are the forums important? Yes. Can the forums go too far or be over-done? Yes. PS Do we have a forum on the SETI source code? Isn't it open source? Maybe closing some of these extraneous forums *cough*politics*cough* and adding "SETI Code" forum would be more useful to the community. Just a thought. ID: 689612 · |
Uli  Send message Joined: 6 Feb 00 Posts: 10923 Credit: 5,996,015 RAC: 1
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Thanks DJ and I agree with most of your post. I send my dollars in, because of the forums. Mailed my ck in prior to Mr Eric K. analysis. The snail is still carrying it to Berkley. Pluto will always be a planet to me.  Seti Ambassador Not to late to order an Anni Shirt ID: 689615 · |
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kittyman Send message Joined: 9 Jul 00 Posts: 51468 Credit: 1,018,363,574 RAC: 1,004
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This is very simple..... PLEASE donate if you are able to. And nobody should think less of you if you are not able to or choose not to do so. But please consider the panache of the little green star shining brightly next to your name. Bling bling for the internet. "Freedom is just Chaos, with better lighting." Alan Dean Foster
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Geek@Play  Send message Joined: 31 Jul 01 Posts: 2467 Credit: 86,146,931 RAC: 0
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I am one of your statistical units. I have never donated cash to SETI. Crunching for Boinc/Seti seems to give you some sense of accomplishment, there is no doubt about that otherwise you would not continue as you have. Looking after the software and hardware for just one computer running 24/7 requires a great deal of time and commitment to the project over the course of a year. You are to be commended on this. However......in addition to your commitment and expenses of $300.00 per year you cannot make one $25.00 donation per year to keep the project going? By your own figures you are spending .82 cents per day for Seti. You cannot afford an additional 6.8 cents per day to help insure that Seti will continue as a viable project? If there were no financial donations from us, in all probablility, Seti would not exist. ID: 689668 · |
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John Clark Send message Joined: 29 Sep 99 Posts: 16515 Credit: 4,418,829 RAC: 0
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I support Geek@Play's comments. As well as contributing to the science, I find the competition, in it's myriad ways, interesting and a driver. I am particularly interested in the optimised client discussions and the comments from Mark, and others, on the rigs, value per $ of different processors, overclocking, etc. As important is the community and people, and friends, I have made. These forums have value to all, and the moderators do have a useful input (despite clashes, and I am one who has not helped at times) - Christmas confession <grin>. I would encourage donations as you can afford them to help the project. It's good to be back amongst friends and colleagues
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Fuzzy Hollynoodles  Send message Joined: 3 Apr 99 Posts: 9659 Credit: 251,998 RAC: 0 |
I am one of your statistical units. I have never donated cash to SETI. Thank you, Geek@Play. This is what many people seem to forget.  "I'm trying to maintain a shred of dignity in this world." - Me 
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