Political Thread - CLOSED

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Message 27755 - Posted: 18 Sep 2004, 18:49:37 UTC - in response to Message 27665.  
Last modified: 18 Sep 2004, 18:56:03 UTC

> oh girls and boys it all over the world the same !
> Machmal sind kleine aber durchdachte
und verstandene Schritte die bessere Wahl.Guidos Boinc Forum


Wow! For once Guido come up with an on-topic pic. As always I have no idea what he said.

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Message 27771 - Posted: 18 Sep 2004, 19:56:55 UTC - in response to Message 27755.  
Last modified: 17 Dec 2004, 5:03:00 UTC

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Message 27776 - Posted: 18 Sep 2004, 20:31:56 UTC - in response to Message 27752.  

That old canard that the US (corporate) media is "liberal" and favors Kerry/Gore/Clinton is a laugh. I remember back in the '00 election they were doing all they can to paint Gore as "wooden" and allow Bush to get away with all the populist pablum (gee, the overprivileged brat, uber-millionaire "populist" --- only in America ;-). As for Guido's picture, I don't quite understand. Are they trying to equate the Bush klan's actual ties to Halliburton "war for no-bid contracts" and other inanities such as the religious reich in the US, with Kerry's tenuous ties to ketchup & unions? Sorry, but I'll take tiny ties to benign Heinz ketchup over Cheney the reptile's well-known and conflicting interests with Halliburton, Bush's ties to big oil etc. Since so many here are into Carl Sagan, remember in his writings he reminded us of such base reptilian impulses that the Repukes seem to revel in.
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Message 27782 - Posted: 18 Sep 2004, 20:57:10 UTC - in response to Message 27776.  
Last modified: 18 Sep 2004, 21:19:44 UTC

Carl, I guess we are just going to have to agree to disagree on the politics of the American media. I am neither a Republican nor a Democrat, but I have become much more conservative since the 9/11 attacks. I just don't see economic profit (that you claim Bush and Cheney have gained), as being in the same ballpark as terrorist attacks, mass murder, use of WMD and failure to follow international agreements critical to the security of the Middle East and the world.

> That old canard that the US (corporate) media is "liberal" and favors
> Kerry/Gore/Clinton is a laugh. I remember back in the '00 election they were
> doing all they can to paint Gore as "wooden" and allow Bush to get away with
> all the populist pablum (gee, the overprivileged brat, uber-millionaire
> "populist" --- only in America ;-). As for Guido's picture, I don't quite
> understand. Are they trying to equate the Bush klan's actual ties to
> Halliburton "war for no-bid contracts" and other inanities such as the
> religious reich in the US, with Kerry's tenuous ties to ketchup & unions?
> Sorry, but I'll take tiny ties to benign Heinz ketchup over Cheney the
> reptile's well-known and conflicting interests with Halliburton, Bush's ties
> to big oil etc. Since so many here are into Carl Sagan, remember in his
> writings he reminded us of such base reptilian impulses that the Repukes seem
> to revel in.
>
>
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Message 27784 - Posted: 18 Sep 2004, 21:04:35 UTC - in response to Message 27782.  
Last modified: 18 Sep 2004, 21:05:20 UTC

> the American media. I am neither a Republican nor a Democrat, but I have
> become much more conservative since the 9/11 attacks.

Then you should look at the past history of the "conservatives" and who they have traditionally supported (hint: religious zealots in the Middle East such as Wahabbi Saudi's including one Osama Bin Laden, not to mention the Taliban "freedom fighter" gang).

> I just don't see
> economic profit (that you claim Bush and Cheney have gained), as being in the

HAHA, a "missing" billion bucks to Halliburton on no-bid contracts can't be "wrong" eh?

> same ballpark as terrorist attacks, mass murder, use of WMD and failure to

All of which were long supported by US policymakers, especially the current crop of criminals. But you'll still wonder "why do they hate us" eh? Just as in Watergate --- "follow da money"

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Message 27790 - Posted: 18 Sep 2004, 21:16:39 UTC - in response to Message 27776.  
Last modified: 18 Sep 2004, 21:21:06 UTC

> That old canard that the US (corporate) media is "liberal" and favors
> Kerry/Gore/Clinton is a laugh.
Well I'm glad I could put a smile on your face. :) I have a good friend who is a CNN radio reporter and she would be the first one to tell you how liberal her employer is. Also ABC, CBS etc. They all bash FOX News saying how pro-conservative pro-Bush FOX is. I dont see how its possible for a for-profit business not putting in their own slant one way or another. Its all to easy to turn something objective into something subjective. For ex, you could have a report of an 'explosion' in Bagdad and have one news agency report a SMALL explosion and another report a LARGE explosion depending upon how they want the situation to "look". It may be the agency as a whole or just the one individual reporter. The only way to remain completely objective is TO TELL THE TRUTH (no lies), THE WHOLE TRUTH (no omissions), AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH (no additions). Its hard enough for that to be followed in a courtroom let alone the TV news.

> I remember back in the '00 election they were
> doing all they can to paint Gore as "wooden" and allow Bush to get away with
> all the populist pablum
Much as they gave to Clinton against Dole who was painted as a boring stick figure. Charisma leads to better ratings, totem poles lead to channel changing.

> As for Guido's picture, I don't quite
> understand. Are they trying to equate the Bush klan's actual ties to
> Halliburton "war for no-bid contracts" and other inanities such as the
> religious reich in the US, with Kerry's tenuous ties to ketchup & unions?
> Sorry, but I'll take tiny ties to benign Heinz ketchup over Cheney the
> reptile's
Cheney the reptile over Heinz the rich witch? Surely youre not hoping she will go naked as well.

EDIT: I did have Queen "let them eat cake" Heinz stated first but changed it to rich witch after a reread of the article.
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Message 27792 - Posted: 18 Sep 2004, 21:22:49 UTC

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Message 27793 - Posted: 18 Sep 2004, 21:24:25 UTC
Last modified: 18 Sep 2004, 21:25:28 UTC

I have to say (even though it's not my turn) how thrilled I am to be having this discussion with people of such divergent views. And though I disagree with many of the opinions here, and I have tried to explain why I disagree, there has been very little in the way of personal attacks and name-calling directed at the participants to this thread.

It is important to me that I understand those who do not see things the way that I do. And despite my huge ego, I may even agree, eventually, if given persuasive arguments and data to back them up.
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Message 27799 - Posted: 18 Sep 2004, 21:42:29 UTC - in response to Message 27793.  

> I have to say (even though it's not my turn) how thrilled I am to be having
> this discussion with people of such divergent views. And though I disagree
> with many of the opinions here, and I have tried to explain why I disagree,
> there has been very little in the way of personal attacks and name-calling
> directed at the participants to this thread.
> It is important to me that I understand those who do not see things the way
> that I do. And despite my huge ego, I may even agree, eventually, if given
> persuasive arguments and data to back them up.

Quite right. Since you brought it up I'll add a comment that I edited out of a response to one of your posts. (Paraphrased from memory:) He can't because they're not. It's much easier to opine than post links to historical facts and figures. At least to his credit he didnt label you a racist for your (pro-American) political views. No matter how heated the arguing gets a valid debate is still a valid debate as long as people dont resort to accusations and insults. That was my overall point in another thread and why I got upset. As long as we leave out the personal attacks and name calling we can still disagree yet maintain our civility.
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Message 27801 - Posted: 18 Sep 2004, 21:46:43 UTC - in response to Message 27782.  
Last modified: 18 Sep 2004, 21:54:08 UTC

> Carl, I guess we are just going to have to agree to disagree on the politics
> of the American media. I am neither a Republican nor a Democrat, but I have
> become much more conservative since the 9/11 attacks.
Very understandable! I distain the partisan bickering and registered as an Independant because of it. I'll support a candidate because of their beliefs and what they stand for and not because a political party tells me to.
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Message 27802 - Posted: 18 Sep 2004, 21:54:31 UTC - in response to Message 27793.  

> I have to say (even though it's not my turn) how thrilled I am to be having
> this discussion with people of such divergent views. And though I disagree
> with many of the opinions here, and I have tried to explain why I disagree,
> there has been very little in the way of personal attacks and name-calling
> directed at the participants to this thread.
>
> It is important to me that I understand those who do not see things the way
> that I do. And despite my huge ego, I may even agree, eventually, if given
> persuasive arguments and data to back them up.
>

I agree with you tom. I heve been involved on another "polital" thread that have tuned out really bad. So far this one is positive and each views are defendable. For my part it's harder to defend my views on that subject being limited by words. My views are very well expressed though by other participants in this thread especially those of Carl Christensen, H. Richard Utzig and FalconFly.



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Message 27807 - Posted: 18 Sep 2004, 22:22:12 UTC - in response to Message 27676.  

> >however I am the type that went to Viet Nam just to be welcomed home with
> a >bucket of blood poured over my uniform.
>
> Oh come on, that's the biggest myth, that scads of hippies were running around
> spitting on Vietnam vets etc. There was some spitting done on Vietnam vets
> --- it was Repukes at the RNC in '72 spitting on vets protesting the war such
> as Ron "Born on the 4th of July" Kovic.
>
Carl I must say that part your response was insulting at best.

Having been the young man in uniform that had the bucket of blood poured on my Dress Blues by some slut at the University of Berkeley I know the truth of that encounter.

BTW, I never said anything about "scads of hippies" you brought that into the conversation.



<a> [/url]
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Oderint dum metuant
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Message 27816 - Posted: 18 Sep 2004, 22:39:12 UTC - in response to Message 27807.  

> > >however I am the type that went to Viet Nam just to be welcomed home
> with
> > a >bucket of blood poured over my uniform.
> >
> > Oh come on, that's the biggest myth, that scads of hippies were running
> around
> > spitting on Vietnam vets etc. There was some spitting done on Vietnam
> vets
> > --- it was Repukes at the RNC in '72 spitting on vets protesting the war
> such
> > as Ron "Born on the 4th of July" Kovic.
> >
> Carl I must say that part your response was insulting at best.
>
> Having been the young man in uniform that had the bucket of blood poured on my
> Dress Blues by some slut at the University of Berkeley I know the truth
> of that encounter.
>
> BTW, I never said anything about "scads of hippies" you brought that into the
> conversation.
>
I figured that happened to you. Your post had a certain feel to it that you were "in the know". Thats the difference of thinking/hearing something to personally experiencing it. I'm reminded of the old cliche': Never ASSUME, because when you ASSUME you make an ASS out of U and ME. :)
Its horrible how some vets are treated because of a controversial war or police action. As soldiers you CANT refuse the order to go or you'd be locked up in the stockade/brig before you could bat an eyelash. IF people are against a war then they should protest against the government and politicians who ordered it, not against the soldier who was ordered to fight it.
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Message 27855 - Posted: 19 Sep 2004, 1:11:48 UTC

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Message 27921 - Posted: 19 Sep 2004, 5:49:17 UTC
Last modified: 19 Sep 2004, 5:50:34 UTC

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Message 27956 - Posted: 19 Sep 2004, 9:25:38 UTC - in response to Message 27807.  
Last modified: 19 Sep 2004, 10:47:57 UTC

> Having been the young man in uniform that had the bucket of blood poured on my
> Dress Blues by some slut at the University of Berkeley I know the truth
> of that encounter.

Gee, well if that really happened to you I'm amazed it didn't make the right or left-wing press. And where is the "University of Berkeley", is that "Cal-Berkeley" (home of SETI & BOINC :-) or another institution? And where exactly were you that a chick from Berkeley just happened to have a bucket of blood to dump on you? On an abbatoir tour group? It's a great anecdote, do you have any actual evidence? A SETI-aware group should know Carl Sagan's famous phrase -- "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."

You're starting to sound like that psycho Republican in Virginia that every 4 years claims "evil hordes of liberals" descend on him & his family and tear up their George Bush signs etc. Here's this years bogus installment -- an "evil liberal" snatched a Bush banner from his infant daughter's hands and made her cry:
http://www.wonkette.com/archives/democrats-hate-children-but-so-does-phil-parlock-021497.php
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x828458

And these reports of supposed tree-hugging hippies that spit or otherwise defame Vietnam Vets are basically always fabrications. There's an entire book written (by a Vietnam Vet) exploring the collective-right-wing-mass-psychosis of "damn liberals spit on returning Vietnam Vets."

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0814751474/104-6295467-9574334

In fact the only documented cases were Republicans spitting on "Veterans Against the War" protesters at the Repuke convention in '72 (i.e. the aforementioned Ron Kovic etc). Perhaps that's why so many Germans & French don't like the neocon-god-squad in the US -- they've seen those sorts of Orwell-cum-Hitler tactics before.

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Message 27957 - Posted: 19 Sep 2004, 9:26:41 UTC - in response to Message 27816.  

>As soldiers you CANT refuse the order to go or you'd be locked up in the
>stockade/brig before you could bat an eyelash.

Sure you can, you can always have a rich & well connected daddy like Dumbya Bush. He was able to get away with actions that would get the "average GI Joe" locked up in the brig.
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Message 27959 - Posted: 19 Sep 2004, 9:28:11 UTC - in response to Message 27790.  
Last modified: 19 Sep 2004, 10:43:46 UTC

>Cheney the reptile over Heinz the rich witch? Surely youre not hoping she will go
> naked as well.

The lame demonization by the reich-wingers is hilarious. First it was "Hitlary" and "feminazis" and now they're trying to paint Theresa Heinz as "evil." I guess they're mad she inherited Republican money? Meanwhile, you lamers crow over an actual "killer" First Lady Laura Bush. Apparently she ran over the wrong boyfriend...

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Message 27996 - Posted: 19 Sep 2004, 11:26:40 UTC - in response to Message 27956.  

> In fact the only documented cases were Republicans spitting on "Veterans
> Against the War" protesters at the Repuke convention in '72 (i.e. the
> aforementioned Ron Kovic etc). Perhaps that's why so many Germans &
> French don't like the neocon-god-squad in the US -- they've seen those sorts
> of Orwell-cum-Hitler tactics before.

Kind of
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Message 28049 - Posted: 19 Sep 2004, 17:48:56 UTC - in response to Message 27957.  

> >As soldiers you CANT refuse the order to go or you'd be locked up in the
> >stockade/brig before you could bat an eyelash.
>
> Sure you can, you can always have a rich & well connected daddy like
> Dumbya Bush. He was able to get away with actions that would get the "average
> GI Joe" locked up in the brig.
>
>
You're ASSUMING I think of Bush as a soldier. In the end who cares who cares what Bush or Kerry did some 30-40 years ago. Clinton fled the country and didnt inhale but that didnt stop Bubba from making it into office, twice.
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