We want our EU Treaty referendum NOW!

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Profile Tigher
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Message 632835 - Posted: 3 Sep 2007, 15:45:40 UTC
Last modified: 3 Sep 2007, 16:08:52 UTC

The European Union is in the final throws of creating itself as a super power. With the recent Reform Treaty, also known as the Constitutional Treaty, it will form itself into a nation that has control of 27 European nations – with more to come yet. It will give itself power to take whatever further power it wants from those nations. It does this in such a way that it will never have to ask the people of Europe what they think or what their views might be. It seeks to replace the UK and France on the UN Security Council and force all nations to pursue a single foreign policy. We in the UK are unable to name who these people are that do this to our nation. We know they are deconstructing us and we know they have huge influence over the politicians we elect but we do not know why. Brits have been sceptical about the EU’s intentions for years. Indeed Brits have said in the past that the EU is trying to be a super state and this has been denied over many years. Looking at what this new treaty brings its fair to say we called it right and we were lied to about what was intended.

Tony Blair promised us a referendum at the last election in 2005. This was to address fears that the EU was now nation like, that the UK was giving up sovereignty, that Parliament was becoming a local committee or poodle of the EU acting under its every instruction without hesitation, that the people deserved a say in their future and the shape and nature of the governance of that future. Well Blair has gone and now we have Gordon Brown. An honest and honourable man thus far in every respect except the EU. He denies us the promised referendum saying its a matter for Parliament not the people. Well between 61% and 81% of the UK, on a survey basis, disagree. We think its a matter for us.

There is only a minority that seeks to leave the EU altogether. What most want is an EU that is designed and ready for the 21st Century not this nation consuming, protectionist, normalising, taxing, authoritarian, undemocratic body that takes over our every day lives and was born from a now dated and irrelevant idea in the 1940s. We want a flexible and dynamic EU that seeks union of thought and a philosophical togetherness not political, social and economic hard edged union that says we all be the same. The real people of Europe are not seeking to be a counter weight to the USA. We don’t want the EU to trek around the world doing what the USA has done since WWII. It is not needed, its unwelcome and it will cause problems between the USA and Europe when, by all accounts, the rise of China and India says the USA and Europe must get closer not estranged.

We want our referendum to sort out this running sore of 35 years or so. Gordon Brown, we demand our right to a referendum as promised in that last manifesto.

As a UK citizen if you want your right to a referendum sign the petition here - save our nation from being devoured by the faceless ones from Brussels.

Some info here

A must read article


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Message 632997 - Posted: 3 Sep 2007, 20:11:23 UTC

My best wishes and good luck to the people of the United Kingdom.
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Message 633062 - Posted: 3 Sep 2007, 21:57:20 UTC

I wished they had a referendum here in Germany whether or not to join the EU. Well, at least I can't remember if there was any.
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Message 633073 - Posted: 3 Sep 2007, 22:10:10 UTC - in response to Message 633062.  
Last modified: 3 Sep 2007, 22:12:13 UTC

I wished they had a referendum here in Germany whether or not to join the EU. Well, at least I can't remember if there was any.


Maybe because Germany was one of the original six in the EEC?


Good luck to UK.


"I'm trying to maintain a shred of dignity in this world." - Me

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Message 633112 - Posted: 3 Sep 2007, 23:28:17 UTC - in response to Message 633073.  

I wished they had a referendum here in Germany whether or not to join the EU. Well, at least I can't remember if there was any.


Maybe because Germany was one of the original six in the EEC?


Good luck to UK.


Even then they had to ask the People. Germany is a democracy, I thought. Demos (Greek, = the People), kratein (Greek, = rule) Democracy => government by the people. Or, as some wise thinker said: By the people, for the people.
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Message 633460 - Posted: 4 Sep 2007, 16:18:37 UTC

Death to the Euro. Heh.
Cordially,
Rush

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Message 633475 - Posted: 4 Sep 2007, 19:50:34 UTC - in response to Message 633460.  

Death to the Euro. Heh.


There must be something wrong... I agree to a post by Rush? Hm...
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Message 633606 - Posted: 4 Sep 2007, 22:02:04 UTC - in response to Message 633460.  

Death to the Euro. Heh.


We still have our own currency. Heh.



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Message 633976 - Posted: 5 Sep 2007, 14:36:10 UTC

Yes. You make a solid point. However you are always going to have trouble convincing your Parliament that becoming part of a EU superpower is a bad thing for your country as opposed to going it alone.

Sure you give up some national sovereignty but you gain a whole lot of international clout and it is every government's primary duty to increase the country's national standing and by so doing provide for the security of its citizens.

Sometimes the mob gets it wrong.

Just thought I'd give you that as a counterpoint.
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Message 633981 - Posted: 5 Sep 2007, 14:41:27 UTC - in response to Message 633976.  

Yes. You make a solid point. However you are always going to have trouble convincing your Parliament that becoming part of a EU superpower is a bad thing for your country as opposed to going it alone.

Sure you give up some national sovereignty but you gain a whole lot of international clout and it is every government's primary duty to increase the country's national standing and by so doing provide for the security of its citizens.

Sometimes the mob gets it wrong.

Just thought I'd give you that as a counterpoint.


So Britain gives up its empire and then thinks it's a good idea to join the EU? Kinda backward if you ask me.

Hopefully the cosmos is not trying to reverse the charges.
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Message 633983 - Posted: 5 Sep 2007, 14:43:04 UTC

The Empire was finished before the EU came about. Or at least British grip on it has been loosened considerably.
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Message 633988 - Posted: 5 Sep 2007, 14:49:28 UTC - in response to Message 633983.  

The Empire was finished before the EU came about. Or at least British grip on it has been loosened considerably.


That's my point exactly. Britain decided it was better to reduce the amount of headaches and paperwork than to hold on to all that land and resources. Why change that line of thought now? Better to worry about the homefront than to worry about what's happening across the channel. You don't need to form a union of nations under one currency to trade back and forth.
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Message 634022 - Posted: 5 Sep 2007, 15:35:27 UTC - in response to Message 633988.  


That's my point exactly. Britain decided it was better to reduce the amount of headaches and paperwork than to hold on to all that land and resources. Why change that line of thought now? Better to worry about the homefront than to worry about what's happening across the channel. You don't need to form a union of nations under one currency to trade back and forth.


Being part of the EU is completely different to being the centre of the British Empire (which they still are, only somewhat less committed). The EU is a completely political institution with no land and resources other than that of its constituent members. It provides uniformity of policy and regulation to enable efficient trade between members. Not to mention the benefits that come from being part of a larger community.
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Message 634051 - Posted: 5 Sep 2007, 16:28:39 UTC - in response to Message 634022.  


That's my point exactly. Britain decided it was better to reduce the amount of headaches and paperwork than to hold on to all that land and resources. Why change that line of thought now? Better to worry about the homefront than to worry about what's happening across the channel. You don't need to form a union of nations under one currency to trade back and forth.


Being part of the EU is completely different to being the centre of the British Empire (which they still are, only somewhat less committed). The EU is a completely political institution with no land and resources other than that of its constituent members. It provides uniformity of policy and regulation to enable efficient trade between members. Not to mention the benefits that come from being part of a larger community.

Well... i admit that being a part of a larger community also has its advantages. But: with the introduction of the Euro they made the same mistake Germany did with the German currency union: Instead of pushing each part on one economical level, and then introduce a common currency, they just put the new currency over the particular economy.
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Message 634731 - Posted: 6 Sep 2007, 13:51:57 UTC

New campaign starts today.

Cross political party support for the referendum. Nearly 50% of all Parliament now wants a referendum.

Take a look! Have a ponder Sign up!

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Message 634745 - Posted: 6 Sep 2007, 14:13:59 UTC - in response to Message 634731.  

New campaign starts today.

Cross political party support for the referendum. Nearly 50% of all Parliament now wants a referendum.

Take a look! Have a ponder Sign up!


What are George Clinton's thought's on it? ;)
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Message 634810 - Posted: 6 Sep 2007, 17:00:56 UTC - in response to Message 633976.  

Yes. You make a solid point. However you are always going to have trouble convincing your Parliament that becoming part of a EU superpower is a bad thing for your country as opposed to going it alone.

Sure you give up some national sovereignty but you gain a whole lot of international clout and it is every government's primary duty to increase the country's national standing and by so doing provide for the security of its citizens.

Sometimes the mob gets it wrong.

Just thought I'd give you that as a counterpoint.


Interesting point.

In fact though the people (mob) have it more right than wrong this time around. Consider in your country - a murderer is caught and convicted. He is not one of your nationals but foreign in fact. He serves time in gaol. Just before release he is assessed and found to be a continuing substantial threat to the public of your country. At release he is deported to his own country. Job done.

Would you say that is the safe way to proceed and to look after your citizens. Is that not the normal way this stuff goes down? It should of course be that way as a government's number one priority is to protect its citizens at all costs. No one wants a government that cannot protect the people - right?

Well in the UK if a foreign national from Italy (real case this) is injected into the scenario above then all goes as described except the last bit. The bit where he gets deported. Well you see the EU has legislated over our heads and now we find we have to let this still dangerous killer back into our community. The people of the the UK rightly ask well why is this so? How did we come to lose control of this? Why were we not asked if we were happy to have a government that was powerless to protect us?

A lot has gone here that exposes nations and their people and we only find out on a drip feed basis. The worst thing though is that this is the last time a treaty will be used to transfer sovereign powers - in future it will be done behind closed doors and we will never even be told. So we live in a democracy in name only as people we did not elect and do not account to us shape our lives as they please without even a whisper to us to ask what we think or what we would like. Can anyone blame a nation for standing up and saying hey hang on let's just get this out and see if its what people want? Can you blame people for demanding a say in their government? Surely not.

We have reached a chaotic state in terms of democracy across Europe. Its a real turning point. Many people are worried about what will happen. Most of the people in the EU just sleep through the whole thing and only the old, great and true democracies are alive to what is happening. e.g. Sweden, Denmark, Greece and UK are all alarmed. Ireland worries. All else appear to just snooze through.

I think the mob might be well informed this time around. They see the plot (just see the quotes here about failing to get a constitution last time but sneakily getting through on a series of existing treaty reforms to get the same effect!) and are awake. We just need the rest of Europe to smell the coffee and sing out for a referendum too. Go France! Go Holland! Go Greece!

If a referendum says that's what the people want then so be it - end of nationhood. But if the people do not want this thing then it should not be forced. We have preached self determination for 60 years around the world and our soldiers have died delivering it for many nations. Now we deny it to ourselves or at least someone somewhere denies it to us! I cannot see a happy ending to all this.



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Message 635045 - Posted: 7 Sep 2007, 2:27:46 UTC

The simple fact is that all EU countries are still democratic because if you elect a government on the basis of a promise to withdraw from the EU then so it shall be.

Find a group of people across the UK that feel the same way about the EU (which you believe there are many by your suggesting a referendum) and form a political party (perhaps you can call yourselves UK First or the Nationals if there is not already one). Thus you eliminate the need for you government to call a referendum and can just force one.

Even if you won't win government you may win enough votes to force a change of thinking on the issue.

That's democracy.
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Message 635126 - Posted: 7 Sep 2007, 5:52:51 UTC - in response to Message 635045.  

The simple fact is that all EU countries are still democratic because if you elect a government on the basis of a promise to withdraw from the EU then so it shall be.

Find a group of people across the UK that feel the same way about the EU (which you believe there are many by your suggesting a referendum) and form a political party (perhaps you can call yourselves UK First or the Nationals if there is not already one). Thus you eliminate the need for you government to call a referendum and can just force one.

Even if you won't win government you may win enough votes to force a change of thinking on the issue.

That's democracy.

I can just see the BNP licking their chops...(bad attempt at humour)
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Message 635235 - Posted: 7 Sep 2007, 10:33:35 UTC - in response to Message 635045.  
Last modified: 7 Sep 2007, 10:39:54 UTC

The simple fact is that all EU countries are still democratic because if you elect a government on the basis of a promise to withdraw from the EU then so it shall be.

Find a group of people across the UK that feel the same way about the EU (which you believe there are many by your suggesting a referendum) and form a political party (perhaps you can call yourselves UK First or the Nationals if there is not already one). Thus you eliminate the need for you government to call a referendum and can just force one.

Even if you won't win government you may win enough votes to force a change of thinking on the issue.

That's democracy.


There is no history of success for political parties with a single issue. We have a party called UKIP. It will never succeed because its not what people want.

The point is there are only a few that ask to pull out of the EU. Most, including me, want an EU that we can hold to account, one that is fit for purpose, one that is open and transparent, one that we helped create, one that can be shaped by the people for the people, one that engages in true pan European strategic issues rather than trivia that attempts to normailise and regularise us in the Euro codified manner. That is democracy! What we have is an elite maneuvering and manipulating nations and their people.

Consider this:


“Public opinion will be led to adopt, without knowing it, the proposals that
we dare not present to them directly… All the earlier proposals will be in
the new text, but will be hidden and disguised in some way.”
– Valery Giscard d’Estaing,
Author of the European Constitution



Would you say the people have a say when an ex French President and the author of the constitution that failed, and is now re-presented in the Reform Treaty, says this?

“The aim of the Constitutional Treaty was to be more readable; the aim of this treaty is to be unreadable… The Constitution aimed to be clear, whereas this treaty had to be unclear. It is a success.”
- Karel de Gucht, Belgian Foreign Minister


Would you say we are being misled at all?

“Britain is different. Of course there will be transfers of sovereignty. But would I be intelligent to draw the attention of public opinion to this fact?”
- Jean Claude Juncker, Prime Minister of Luxembourg


Our UK concerns are well known but still the march to a super state to usurp the USA continues.

“The good thing about not calling it a Constitution is that no one can ask for a referendum on it.”
– Giuliano Amato, Italian Interior Minister


Are we being manipulated? Is all that democratic. No of course not so we have little democracy after all!

I think it is clear what is happening and I believe all the EU nations should vote in a referendum on this. For now I just do my bit to raise awareness for Brits and their allies - with whom relations will change forever.

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