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Message 653182 - Posted: 3 Oct 2007, 3:27:10 UTC - in response to Message 653095.  
Last modified: 3 Oct 2007, 3:28:17 UTC

Arrested for reading the Constitution?
WTF? Aren't police officers supposed to have taken an oath on the Constitution?

Part 2.


Hmm.. after watching the videos, and checking up on a couple of things, that it isn't as bad as you are making it out to be.

It appears that a pro-war group was holding a rally and an anti-war group (or groups) tried to disrupt it. It seems likely that the pro-war group had a permit, especially given their speaker list (including Senator Lieberman and Senator McCain, according to that one guy). It also seems likely that the 'Code Pink' group (and maybe others) crashed the party, so to speak, and tried to disrupt it.

It appears that the police, doing their job, tried to separate the two factions by moving the code pink people to another area away from the pro-war speakers podium, and that the code pink people that refused to move got arrested.

This is not a violation of 'free speech rights'. The Government has a compelling interest in separating opposing groups like this. Human beings, being the hotheads that we frequently are, have a tendency to resort to violence in emotionally charged circumstances such as this.

Separation of opposing groups like this became standard procedure back at the height of the civil rights movement. Frequently, minority groups holding civil rights rallies found their rallies disrupted when the KKK would show up and begin intimidating them, and frequently violence would break out between the civil rights people and the sheetheads.

Nobody stopped the Code Pink people from having their say. They just had to do it 'over there', so as not to disrupt the pro-war group. And if it had been an anti-war rally, and pro-war people had shown up, it would have resulted in an identical response. The pro-war people would have been separated and moved, and arrested if they refused to do so. This response actually HELPS guarantee the right of 'free speech' for all concerned. It lets each group have their say, without a direct confrontation with the associated risk of violence.

If the Code Pink people want to have a rally, let them go for it! All they need to do is decide on a venue and go get a permit.

And 'permits' are not a violation of free speech rights either, when it comes to protests and rallies. The permit process helps guarantee the free-speech rights of the group, by ensuring that there are no scheduling conflicts between your group and other groups protesting/rallying about other issues, and it puts the police department on notice so they can assign some officers to provide security services at your protest/rally (for things like traffic control and elimination of disruptions).

CodePink protestor: "Congress shall make no law..."
Police: "Excuse me, but you need to go over there"
CodePink protestor: "Congress shall make no law..."
Police Officer: "Please go over there, or I will have to arrest you..."
CodePink protestor: "Congress shall make no law..."
Police Officer: "Ok, I tried... You are under arrest. <gets out the cuffs> You have the right to remain silent..."

This is no different than "Taser-boy's" circumstances. Failure to comply with a Police Officer's lawful instructions leads to arrest. Resist arrest, and get a smackdown when they have to forcibly put the handcuffs on you. At least, from what I saw, the CodePink lady had the good sense to not resist arrest.

It wasn't WHAT that lady was reciting, it was that she was disrupting somebody else's lawful demonstration and her failure to obey the police officer that tried to get her to move a couple of hundred feet that got her arrested.

You have a right to hold a demonstration without interference by your opponents. Your opponents have a right to hold a demonstration without interference by you. Neither you nor your opponents have a right to disrupt each other's demonstration.

Nothing to see here... Move along.

There are plenty of legitimate reasons why the point could be made that the USA (and a number of other nations) are moving towards being police states. Reasons like increasing surveillance of citizens, abrogation of rights protecting against unreasonable searches and seizures, and search warrants issued by a magistrate being increasingly not required, as examples. The issue raised by Thorin's post that I quoted ISN'T one of them.

But the most disturbing and evil thing is imho that such warmonger meetings are permitted, and peaceful people are suppressed at the same time. Have you seen the interview in Part 2? The (clerical?) woman who was accused to protest disturbingly and handcuffed for 7 hrs after being removed from the place only because she showed the peace sign with her hand?
And it IS the message which was recited, not by whom or when and where. Code Pink and any other similar organization with similar goals have my full sympathy and understanding.
Warmongers don't.
Their meetings and tirades are no "lawful" demonstration in my eyes, as well as KKK meetings or the meetings of New Nazi groups are lawful. To call these enemies of the free "lawful" is like spitting in the faces of the founders of the USA. These movements are opposing everything the fathers of the USA stood for - and that your government allows these movements, and protects them by the police lead me to a question:
What kind of politics make the USA government state that such fascist groups can be allowed and called "lawful" there - and groups who want peace are (and often have been) violently suppressed?
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Message 653228 - Posted: 3 Oct 2007, 4:43:44 UTC - in response to Message 653182.  

Arrested for reading the Constitution?
WTF? Aren't police officers supposed to have taken an oath on the Constitution?

Part 2.


Hmm.. after watching the videos, and checking up on a couple of things, that it isn't as bad as you are making it out to be.

It appears that a pro-war group was holding a rally and an anti-war group (or groups) tried to disrupt it. It seems likely that the pro-war group had a permit, especially given their speaker list (including Senator Lieberman and Senator McCain, according to that one guy). It also seems likely that the 'Code Pink' group (and maybe others) crashed the party, so to speak, and tried to disrupt it.

It appears that the police, doing their job, tried to separate the two factions by moving the code pink people to another area away from the pro-war speakers podium, and that the code pink people that refused to move got arrested.

This is not a violation of 'free speech rights'. The Government has a compelling interest in separating opposing groups like this. Human beings, being the hotheads that we frequently are, have a tendency to resort to violence in emotionally charged circumstances such as this.

Separation of opposing groups like this became standard procedure back at the height of the civil rights movement. Frequently, minority groups holding civil rights rallies found their rallies disrupted when the KKK would show up and begin intimidating them, and frequently violence would break out between the civil rights people and the sheetheads.

Nobody stopped the Code Pink people from having their say. They just had to do it 'over there', so as not to disrupt the pro-war group. And if it had been an anti-war rally, and pro-war people had shown up, it would have resulted in an identical response. The pro-war people would have been separated and moved, and arrested if they refused to do so. This response actually HELPS guarantee the right of 'free speech' for all concerned. It lets each group have their say, without a direct confrontation with the associated risk of violence.

If the Code Pink people want to have a rally, let them go for it! All they need to do is decide on a venue and go get a permit.

And 'permits' are not a violation of free speech rights either, when it comes to protests and rallies. The permit process helps guarantee the free-speech rights of the group, by ensuring that there are no scheduling conflicts between your group and other groups protesting/rallying about other issues, and it puts the police department on notice so they can assign some officers to provide security services at your protest/rally (for things like traffic control and elimination of disruptions).

CodePink protestor: "Congress shall make no law..."
Police: "Excuse me, but you need to go over there"
CodePink protestor: "Congress shall make no law..."
Police Officer: "Please go over there, or I will have to arrest you..."
CodePink protestor: "Congress shall make no law..."
Police Officer: "Ok, I tried... You are under arrest. <gets out the cuffs> You have the right to remain silent..."

This is no different than "Taser-boy's" circumstances. Failure to comply with a Police Officer's lawful instructions leads to arrest. Resist arrest, and get a smackdown when they have to forcibly put the handcuffs on you. At least, from what I saw, the CodePink lady had the good sense to not resist arrest.

It wasn't WHAT that lady was reciting, it was that she was disrupting somebody else's lawful demonstration and her failure to obey the police officer that tried to get her to move a couple of hundred feet that got her arrested.

You have a right to hold a demonstration without interference by your opponents. Your opponents have a right to hold a demonstration without interference by you. Neither you nor your opponents have a right to disrupt each other's demonstration.

Nothing to see here... Move along.

There are plenty of legitimate reasons why the point could be made that the USA (and a number of other nations) are moving towards being police states. Reasons like increasing surveillance of citizens, abrogation of rights protecting against unreasonable searches and seizures, and search warrants issued by a magistrate being increasingly not required, as examples. The issue raised by Thorin's post that I quoted ISN'T one of them.

But the most disturbing and evil thing is imho that such warmonger meetings are permitted, and peaceful people are suppressed at the same time. Have you seen the interview in Part 2? The (clerical?) woman who was accused to protest disturbingly and handcuffed for 7 hrs after being removed from the place only because she showed the peace sign with her hand?
And it IS the message which was recited, not by whom or when and where. Code Pink and any other similar organization with similar goals have my full sympathy and understanding.
Warmongers don't.
Their meetings and tirades are no "lawful" demonstration in my eyes, as well as KKK meetings or the meetings of New Nazi groups are lawful. To call these enemies of the free "lawful" is like spitting in the faces of the founders of the USA. These movements are opposing everything the fathers of the USA stood for - and that your government allows these movements, and protects them by the police lead me to a question:
What kind of politics make the USA government state that such fascist groups can be allowed and called "lawful" there - and groups who want peace are (and often have been) violently suppressed?



Thorin, I think that you are mistaken about a few things. If it only applied to positions that you agree with, 'Freedom of Speech' is meaningless.

'Freedom of speech' and 'freedom to protest' can't be limited by what what you (or anyone else) personally agree with. These freedoms must apply to everyone, no matter their beliefs, else they don't exist.

Be careful of throwing around the fascist label, because your position that people can only exercise their freedom to protest when YOU agree with their position makes YOU the fascist.

And once again, if it was a pro-peace rally, and pro-war protesters showed up and disrupted it, the police would react to the pro-war protesters the SAME way they reacted to the pro-peace protesters in the videos that you linked. I've seen it happen. Don't forget, the county seat of the county I live in has not one but two major universities. Of the about 85000 people in that city, over 50000 of them are university students. Of COURSE we have protests, over just about every issue imaginable. There have been some pro-peace rallies and some pro-war protesters have attempted to disrupt at least one that I saw. The pro-war people got separated and moved by the police, just like the codepink people did in those two videos. Were there any arrests? I am not sure because I was just passing by when I saw it, but its possible.

And the separation-by-police policy applies whenever it is an emotionally charged issue, including but not limited to: Civil Rights... Race relations... Sexual orientation... Feminism... Immigration... Abortion... Religion... Politics... Economics (capitalism vs socialism vs communism)... Environmentalism... Animal Rights... and yes, War...

When Freedom is concerned, you CANNOT pick and choose which side of various issues that it will apply to and which it won't. You mentioned the founders of the USA. They UNDERSTOOD this. Freedom must apply to everyone, else it applies to no one.

There is freedom of speech and freedom to protest. For instance, when the pro-life groups hold a protest rally at my university, the pro-choice groups are allowed to have a protest rally too. At the same time, even. However the two groups must stay at opposite ends of the lawn area set aside for protest rallies. Both groups are allowed to get their message out in a protest rally. Both freedom of speech and freedom to protest are observed. But, the two sides must stay separate, and police are ALWAYS on hand when this is going on to enforce the separation. We don't want fights to break out, and with an emotionally charged issue such as this, when opposing factions mix there is a great danger of fights breaking out.

Once again, Thorin... The police moving a group of peace activists so that they couldn't disrupt a pro-war rally, and arresting those that refuse to move, isn't Fascism. Saying, as you do, that the 'warmongers' have no right to Freedom of Speech or no right to hold a rally IS Fascism.

In a free society, the warmongers have just as much of a right to get their message out as the peacemongers do, regardless of what you, I, or anyone else thinks or says. A society that censors what people can legitimately say or think isn't free.
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Message 653317 - Posted: 3 Oct 2007, 11:11:48 UTC - in response to Message 628070.  

Alex Jones Martial Law 911 Rise of the Police State:

Alex Jones Productions
3 hr 0 min 6 sec - May 1, 2005
www.infowars.com

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4382151310886411718&q=


Getting a bit tired of you and your anti Jew stuff.....

This is the same clown that gets on the radio YELLING about how the 'JEWS' DESTROYED the World Trade Center.

He's a kook...Hell, he's 'kook central'....


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Message 653370 - Posted: 3 Oct 2007, 13:41:03 UTC - in response to Message 653317.  

Alex Jones Martial Law 911 Rise of the Police State:

Alex Jones Productions
3 hr 0 min 6 sec - May 1, 2005
www.infowars.com

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4382151310886411718&q=


Getting a bit tired of you and your anti Jew stuff.....

This is the same clown that gets on the radio YELLING about how the 'JEWS' DESTROYED the World Trade Center.

He's a kook...Hell, he's 'kook central'....



Oh, and by the way...that stuff was now exposed as a fraud....surprise surprise.

Same as that
'jew kills palestinian' thread.....another hoax..

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Message 653389 - Posted: 3 Oct 2007, 14:11:37 UTC
Last modified: 3 Oct 2007, 14:13:17 UTC

Good point, Majorkong. I hope Thorin thinks about it, even if his intentions are good the effect would be not. It would be a dictatorship.

Thorin, I respect that you at least care about others, but open dialog is the way to go as well as initiating/supporting help programs.

About police brutality: the biggest threat to true freedom is if the authorities can commit wrongdoings without consequences. What I don't understand is, that a minority of citizens will justify each act of police brutality no matter how brutal and how unprovoked (until being a victim themselves) - and you can indeed find the same behavior in this forum.

Perhaps you'd be better suited constantly critiquing your own GERMAN government?

Well, if you compare it objectively the situation in the US is far far worse then in Germany.
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Message 653393 - Posted: 3 Oct 2007, 14:19:35 UTC - in response to Message 653389.  

Good point, Majorkong. I hope Thorin thinks about it, even if his intentions are good the effect would be not. It would be a dictatorship.

Thorin, I respect that you at least care about others, but open dialog is the way to go as well as initiating/supporting help programs.

About police brutality: the biggest threat to true freedom is if the authorities can commit wrongdoings without consequences. What I don't understand is, that a minority of citizens will justify each act of police brutality no matter how brutal and how unprovoked (until being a victim themselves) - and you can indeed find the same behavior in this forum.

Perhaps you'd be better suited constantly critiquing your own GERMAN government?

Well, if you compare it objectively the situation in the US is far far worse then in Germany.

Yeah...but it's all fake..man...lol. At least 3 credible news agencies have now exposed it all.

And they are NOT friendly to the 'enemy', GWBush.
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Message 653400 - Posted: 3 Oct 2007, 14:30:30 UTC

Hm, all? That would surprise me. There is such a huge number of incidents, that even if some of them are fakes, it does not change the fact, that there are (too) many such incidents. But it's generally a good thing to see, that fakes get covered up, just don't make the mistake to think all is fine if so many incidents remain. Remember it's your freedom that is in danger and it can happen to anyone.
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Message 653402 - Posted: 3 Oct 2007, 14:36:07 UTC - in response to Message 653400.  

Hm, all? That would surprise me. There is such a huge number of incidents, that even if some of them are fakes, it does not change the fact, that there are (too) many such incidents. But it's generally a good thing to see, that fakes get covered up, just don't make the mistake to think all is fine if so many incidents remain. Remember it's your freedom that is in danger and it can happen to anyone.

MaC...lol. so the self reinforcing delusion takes hold on now?

I don't know all of these 'incidents' ur talking about...but surely am willing to listen. I take all information seriously just as I take all ideas seriously. And if some of those ideas are phony or fraudulent it's just as important to expose them as such. Since I take you to be an honest man I'll assume you agree.
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Message 653406 - Posted: 3 Oct 2007, 14:48:56 UTC - in response to Message 653389.  

Good point, Majorkong. I hope Thorin thinks about it, even if his intentions are good the effect would be not. It would be a dictatorship.

Thorin, I respect that you at least care about others, but open dialog is the way to go as well as initiating/supporting help programs.

About police brutality: the biggest threat to true freedom is if the authorities can commit wrongdoings without consequences. What I don't understand is, that a minority of citizens will justify each act of police brutality no matter how brutal and how unprovoked (until being a victim themselves) - and you can indeed find the same behavior in this forum.

Perhaps you'd be better suited constantly critiquing your own GERMAN government?

Well, if you compare it objectively the situation in the US is far far worse then in Germany.

And you're right.
Though I have been washed away by a police water cannon without even having been a participant of a demonstration or sit-in; though I have seen German police people catching beggars, beating them up whilst loading them into a bus and unloading them about 5 miles outside the town to "clean the city"; though I have seen policemen provoke violent reactions in peaceful demonstrations; though I have seen German police men bash the head of a resident alien who was confused with an illegal immigrant against a wall; though I have seen all these and more things myself and even more terrible things on documentaries, I must say that our German police still is not as violent as the US police but developing to become like them. I know how brutal and right-wing police can be.
And I know that there must be an extreme change in the governments to avoid (better saying: to undo) the developing to a police state.

What do you think why all this cameras are built- in everywhere, why emails and phone-calls can be supervised, why everyone is becoming a suspect by just mentioning several words? In the GDR it was the Stasi; in West Germany it's Verfassungsschutz and BKA, in the States it's FBI, CIA and NSA which control the people like a nowadays' Gestapo. Like: "You're not following our ideas? You're Un-American! Leave or get arrested!" And the police as executives have to follow their orders.
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Message 653416 - Posted: 3 Oct 2007, 15:19:11 UTC - in response to Message 653406.  

Yet 'Thorin' wants to try that grand socialism again...for a second time...to see if they can make it work out better......this time......without the 'scent dogs'.....and the 'scent warehouses'.......where Thorin professes to have had his neighbors SPYING ON HIM on behalf of the govenrment.....with the Alsatians (that's German Shephard Dogs to my American brethren) chomping at the bit....

If you could just just just try ONE more time...you'll get that socialism utopia screaming panties off right!

Fight the power!!!

Good point, Majorkong. I hope Thorin thinks about it, even if his intentions are good the effect would be not. It would be a dictatorship.

Thorin, I respect that you at least care about others, but open dialog is the way to go as well as initiating/supporting help programs.

About police brutality: the biggest threat to true freedom is if the authorities can commit wrongdoings without consequences. What I don't understand is, that a minority of citizens will justify each act of police brutality no matter how brutal and how unprovoked (until being a victim themselves) - and you can indeed find the same behavior in this forum.

Perhaps you'd be better suited constantly critiquing your own GERMAN government?

Well, if you compare it objectively the situation in the US is far far worse then in Germany.

And you're right.
Though I have been washed away by a police water cannon without even having been a participant of a demonstration or sit-in; though I have seen German police people catching beggars, beating them up whilst loading them into a bus and unloading them about 5 miles outside the town to "clean the city"; though I have seen policemen provoke violent reactions in peaceful demonstrations; though I have seen German police men bash the head of a resident alien who was confused with an illegal immigrant against a wall; though I have seen all these and more things myself and even more terrible things on documentaries, I must say that our German police still is not as violent as the US police but developing to become like them. I know how brutal and right-wing police can be.
And I know that there must be an extreme change in the governments to avoid (better saying: to undo) the developing to a police state.

What do you think why all this cameras are built- in everywhere, why emails and phone-calls can be supervised, why everyone is becoming a suspect by just mentioning several words? In the GDR it was the Stasi; in West Germany it's Verfassungsschutz and BKA, in the States it's FBI, CIA and NSA which control the people like a nowadays' Gestapo. Like: "You're not following our ideas? You're Un-American! Leave or get arrested!" And the police as executives have to follow their orders.


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Message 653652 - Posted: 3 Oct 2007, 22:43:35 UTC - in response to Message 653370.  

Alex Jones Martial Law 911 Rise of the Police State:

Alex Jones Productions
3 hr 0 min 6 sec - May 1, 2005
www.infowars.com

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4382151310886411718&q=


Getting a bit tired of you and your anti Jew stuff.....

This is the same clown that gets on the radio YELLING about how the 'JEWS' DESTROYED the World Trade Center.

He's a kook...Hell, he's 'kook central'....



Oh, and by the way...that stuff was now exposed as a fraud....surprise surprise.

Same as that
'jew kills palestinian' thread.....another hoax..


Steady on R/B, MrGray just posted a link to a video, he said nothing of his own views on the matter. I've seen him do the same thing before, for instance, throughout the fairly long 911 thread I'm not sure MrGray stated anything that could be considered a view on the issues raised by the Loose Change and various other videos he posted links to, to my mind it was more poking and prodding. And I tried to get him to take a stand on at least one of the issues he raised, but he dodged, it was frustrating but not a declaration on his part of opposition, agreement or indifference.

Your critique here, however, is pure ad hom. If you know of an actual comment from MrGray that shows he holds the view you attribute to him, by all means post a link, otherwise please drop it, it does little for your credibility.

Having said that, I watched the first 30 minutes or so of the Alex Jones vid and gave up. There's so much hyperbole in there I don't know where to begin. For instance, he repeatedly mentions that George W. Bush and John Kerry are cousins, what he doesn't say is that they're 16th cousins three times removed, how many would include such a relative on their xmas card list? One thing is for sure, the video certainly does not document the beginning of a new police state being born in Manhattan, if any of you would like to visit my fair city, you'll see that the Fuji blimp has gone, as has the majority of semi-automatic wielding police (can't remember the last time I saw one on the street, but I'm sure there were a few around last week for the annual UN GA).

Getting back to my criticism or your comment though, I don't think I heard the word 'Jew' (or any variation of it) mentioned in the segment I watched.
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

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Message 653866 - Posted: 4 Oct 2007, 8:16:59 UTC

It is an interesting phenomenon we have here.

True rage. It indicates something very powerful and underlying to me.


.
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Message 654130 - Posted: 4 Oct 2007, 19:48:59 UTC - in response to Message 653866.  

True rage.

That's what gives them away... They can't control it... ;)
It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . .
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Message boards : Politics : Police State?


 
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