Illegals............

Awright, at the risk of starting a flamefest, I gotta ask, how many of you really believe that illegals here (mostly from Mexico) have any rights being here in this country? I don't wanna hear any arguments about how much they contribute/detract from our enconomy, etc., but why you think they have any right crossing the border illegally and being allow to stay for even 15 seconds before they are escorted back to whence they came.
I am neither a racict nor a bigot, I am an American that wonders where all the money for social services is going to come from to support those that have not contributed one dime to the system.
I mean, what's gonna be left for me, working since I was 14 years old, with a SS number, paying into the system? If I had every dime I ever paid into the system waiting for me in an escrow fund that I could not touch 'till I was 65, I'd be sitting pretty right now.
No rhetoric please, just constructive comments.
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"Ask not, what your kitty can do for you. Ask what you can do for your kitty."

As it is kitten, so shall it be done.

Awright, at the risk of starting a flamefest, I gotta ask, how many of you really believe that illegals here (mostly from Mexico) have any rights being here in this country? I don't wanna hear any arguments about how much they contribute/detract from our enconomy, etc., but why you think they have any right crossing the border illegally and being allow to stay for even 15 seconds before they are escorted back to whence they came.
I am neither a racict nor a bigot, I am an American that wonders where all the money for social services is going to come from to support those that have not contributed one dime to the system.
I mean, what's gonna be left for me, working since I was 14 years old, with a SS number, paying into the system? If I had every dime I ever paid into the system waiting for me in an escrow fund that I could not touch 'till I was 65, I'd be sitting pretty right now.
No rhetoric please, just constructive comments.

...why you think they have any right crossing the border illegally and being allow to stay for even 15 seconds before they are escorted back to whence they came...

Who will pick our fruit?

RUBEN NAVARRETTE JR.
THE UNION-TRIBUNE

July 22, 2007

FRESNO– To listen to right-wing talk radio or the fear-mongers on cable TV, you would think that the only people upset by the unraveling of immigration reform are open-border liberals or left-leaning Latino activists.

Nope. Farmers and ranchers are as conservative as they come. Yet right about now, they're angry enough to spit nails.

American agribusiness is fighting off foreign competition from Asia and Latin America while losing workers to other industries. Someone who grows peaches in the Central Valley might pay workers about $7 per hour, while construction firms often pay twice that.

The reason for the disparity is wrapped up in how much people are willing to pay for what they consume. A lot of Californians won't think twice about forking over a million dollars for a house, but they'll balk at the price of an apple, especially when they have the option of going to another store where the apples are cheaper because they come from China.

And given that California agribusiness generates more than $30 billion annually, the labor shortage is a concern for everyone in the state – whether they realize it or not.

That point is not lost on the community leaders associated with the Kenneth L. Maddy Institute at California State University Fresno. The institute, named after a former state senator who cast a long shadow on local and state politics, sets out to train new leaders and find creative solutions to public policy issues.

We need both. So when the institute invited me to my hometown to participate in a forum on immigration reform, I gladly accepted.

The economy of the Central Valley hums in the summer months and then suffers a downturn in winter. It's all tied to the harvest. A grape grower has a good year, and he buys himself a new pickup truck. The person who sold it to him then has money to afford private school tuition for his daughter. And then the school has enough money to add a new wing. And then the construction company that gets the contract to build it lures away workers from the farmer who set the whole thing in motion.

Now what is the farmer supposed to do? Think the average American college student wants to do those jobs? As one of the other forum participants put it: “Of course no one wants their kids to become farm workers. Not even farm workers want their kids to become farm workers.”

Some farmers in Colorado and Idaho have turned to prison inmates to fill the void. It's a cute stunt but not a long-term solution.

So farm groups pressed Congress to pass comprehensive immigration reform. They were especially interested in the Agricultural Job Opportunities, Benefits and Security Act of 2006, or AgJobs, which would have created a new guest-worker program and granted legal status to hundreds of thousands of illegal immigrants who work in agriculture.

Instead, farmers watched Republicans push racist hot buttons over how we shouldn't have to “press one for English” and how any illegal immigrant who gets legal status would go on welfare. Then they watched Democrats attack the guest-worker plan in order to pander to organized labor desperate to protect union members from having to compete with foreign laborers. Meanwhile, pundits in Washington and New York showed their ignorance. The city folk suggested that farmers use machines to pick crops, but farmers maintain that could bruise fruits and vegetables and destroy their profit margin. Try picking blueberries with a machine – you'll wind up with puree. Do it with strawberries and, before you know it, you'll have jam.

Then there's the money. Congress' failure to pass immigration reform is especially galling since many in agriculture have forked over millions in campaign contributions to officeholders from both parties. And when farmers asked for one thing in return, they got the runaround. They also got insulted; the anti-reform lobby painted them as greedy growers hungry for more illegal immigrants to exploit.

Not true, farmers say. They want a legal work force, they insist, but Congress won't even create a tamper-proof ID card so that employers can be sure that their workers are legal. They say they are running out of options. And they've already run out of patience.

They admit that as many as 90 percent of agricultural workers are illegal immigrants. But they wonder, just where are the Americans who are supposedly desperate to have these jobs?

I bet at least some of them are trying different supermarkets, shopping around for the best price for a piece of fruit.
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isn't the 'Entire Issue' (re: Illegals) NOT based upon those that 'contribute' etc . . . BUT those that have come here (to the USA) illegally crossing the border and proceeding to create gangs and dealing drugs / killings / robberies
etc . . . THOSE individuals HAVE to be Dealt with - right?

leave the 'others' alone (and this is NOT about Latinos / Chicanos / Mexicans)

> a Note: i was married to Angelina, in Los Angeles and she was 'Mexican' - so i have a marriage that lasted almost 10 years (don't ask re: why? i am not any longer married - basically i don't want to get into that issue - it's nobody's business - and IF ya must know - PM me - watCh out! though - i screen mi friends ;))

she had an awful lot of common-sense too and even she (as a Mexican) thought that the problem was to take care of the illegals that were actually criminals (and whatever that refers to / felons etc) should be put into prison - NOT sent back to Mexico - where they just simply come back via the 'pipelines' and it deja vu's all over again . . . a great big vicous circle . . . and mostly - in Los Angeles, Ca. - the majority are NOT criminals - BUT there are quite a few that is testimony to a MAJOR Problem that HAS to be dealt with - AND sooner than later . . . (it may already be TOO Late . . . though i would rather think Positive . . .)

ARREST ALL FELONS - regardless of where they are from - and then deal with them according to the Law. PERIOD!

@ MK - your

And an FYI, Mexican prison makes prison in the USA look like a vacation at a tourist resort.

did you NOT rEad - mi wifE, Angelina was 'originally' from Mexico and i had quite a few instances - with 'federali's' . . . though me step-grandmother / grandfather use to "take care of" (with sometimes JUST a 'look') and they wouldn't even lOOk @ me aftEr that . . . it became 'hands off attitude' towards mi . . . ;) and i am well acquainted with the ways 'down below' . . . and NO, i haven't bEEn in Prison - there nor here . . . ;) They are basically 'lawless' when it comes to the law down south - to say the least . . .

di you ever think - btw - regarding the return to Mexico COST factor - of taking them back & forth - sometimes hundreds of times . . . to just have them return again and keep shooting people, drug dealin' etc . . . and constantly gettin' away with it . . .

mobius . . .

I am an illegal in my country, and came over here just over 1,000 years ago!

I can show this is true!
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It's good to be back amongst friends and colleagues

I am an illegal in my country, and came over here just over 1,000 years ago!

I can show this is true!

I am an illegal in my country, and came over here just over 1,000 years ago!

I can show this is true!

So, you claim to be 1000 years old? Forgive me for not believing you.

Most Americans don't have American ancestry that dates back that far.

I do find it strange to decide at what point someone becomes legal and when they are illegal.

I also thought that the whole basis of capitalism was to have a freely moving workforce so that workers could go where the work is.

I agree that if employers weren't so keen to employ the cheaper (and because of the law) easily exploitable labour there wouldn't be such a problem.

I also suspect that if the more affluent Western countries didn't interfere with their governments, blockade, impose trade restrictions, demand repayment on ridiculous loans disguised as aid and didn't destabilise, sell arms too, over throw governments and generally pirate and bully their way around the less well off countries, there wouldn't be so many people living in such bad conditions that they were so desperate to work illegally in America in the first place.

Most Americans don't have American ancestry that dates back that far.

In fact, none of them do.

I do find it strange to decide at what point someone becomes legal and when they are illegal.

Welcome to gov't. It's called "by fiat," which means, because they said so.

I also thought that the whole basis of capitalism was to have a freely moving workforce so that workers could go where the work is.

Eh, you're right in theory, but no rational person makes the claim that the U.S. or the U.K. are purely capitalist societies. They're socialist/mixed economies based on the imposition of force upon whim.

I agree that if employers weren't so keen to employ the cheaper (and because of the law) easily exploitable labour there wouldn't be such a problem.

Do you understand why no one pays the paper boy $110K per year? Do you get why even the venerable Michael Moore himself doesn't pay the kid that mows his lawn $500K (besides the fact that his multi-million dollar condo doesn't have a lawn, it's just an example)?

I also suspect that if the more affluent Western countries didn't interfere with their governments, blockade, impose trade restrictions, demand repayment on ridiculous loans disguised as aid and didn't destabilise, sell arms too, over throw governments and generally pirate and bully their way around the less well off countries, there wouldn't be so many people living in such bad conditions that they were so desperate to work illegally in America in the first place.

You're right. But oh, hey, well, this is what gov'ts all over the world do, by very nature of the fact that their populace has generally begged them to meddle in the affairs of others. Boy HOWDY do they meddle, they do. And the gov'ts that these south of the southern U.S. border countries have got, well, they ain't no picnic. Good ole nutsy Ug oughta soon have his place bein' a REAL workers paradise--and you'll know it, because he'll tell you so. Soon, all he'll need is a wall, and then I'm sure Thorin will race right down there. You know, because Ug cares about the worker...

Wrong. You forgot the nations which have been exploited in their own territory for more than 300 years now: the people you call the American Indians.

Well, I would say I'm rather rational (not by objectivistic definition though, but by common sense) And based on my experience with socialist systems, there are a lot of improvements needed to call the US a socialist economy - even more than in the UK which is a capitalistic economy.

Besides the fact that your examples were ridiculous, I think there is a need for minimum wages.

It's only just that a person working 35 to 40 hours a week don't need a second or third job to earn enough for a scanty life.

You're right. But oh, hey, well, this is what gov'ts all over the world do, by very nature of the fact that their populace has generally begged them to meddle in the affairs of others. Boy HOWDY do they meddle, they do. And the gov'ts that these south of the southern U.S. border countries have got, well, they ain't no picnic. Good ole nutsy Ug oughta soon have his place bein' a REAL workers paradise--and you'll know it, because he'll tell you so. Soon, all he'll need is a wall, and then I'm sure Thorin will race right down there. You know, because Ug cares about the worker...

Whomever you mean with Ug...

I think governments should just mind their own business. They should see that they get everything in order in their own country, then they could send their diplomats into other countries for negotiations and so on. Nowadays there is no need for wars, for destabilizing other countries, for giving high loan credits instead of actual help...

The best (and in the long run cheapest) way to avoid illegals is to waive the repay of money given to all poorer countries. Just treat it as the spending it supposed to be. With the money they save by not having to pay it back (plus ridiculous interests) they can build an own economy, and the people don't have to seek their fortune in the rich countries.

The best (and in the long run cheapest) way to avoid illegals is to waive the repay of money given to all poorer countries. Just treat it as the spending it supposed to be. With the money they save by not having to pay it back (plus ridiculous interests) they can build an own economy, and the people don't have to seek their fortune in the rich countries.

The best (and in the long run cheapest) way to avoid illegals is to waive the repay of money given to all poorer countries. Just treat it as the spending it supposed to be. With the money they save by not having to pay it back (plus ridiculous interests) they can build an own economy, and the people don't have to seek their fortune in the rich countries.

I have to disagree, Thorin.

All that would happen is that the corrupt officials in the countries that the majority of illegal aliens are coming from would pocket that money that they don't have to pay back. None of it would go to improve the conditions in the country itself.

Why do you think that America looks so good to all those Mexicans that cross the border?

A lot of the corrupt governments in these countries are supported by America.