Or they could choose to leave you to rot along the side of the road and they would be free to do so, of their own volition. There's nothing wrong with that, is there?

While I wouldn't do that, you're right, there is nothing wrong with that. I have no right to their help. I have no right to force them to help. They have to make their own choices and I cannot think for them, nor initiate force against them to make them choose as I would.

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Cordially,
Rush

elrushbo2@theobviousgmail.com
Remove the obvious...

Or they could choose to leave you to rot along the side of the road and they would be free to do so, of their own volition. There's nothing wrong with that, is there?

While I wouldn't do that, you're right, there is nothing wrong with that. I have no right to their help. I have no right to force them to help. They have to make their own choices and I cannot think for them, nor initiate force against them to make them choose as I would.

That's so poor. I really feel pity for you.

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Account frozen...

Or they could choose to leave you to rot along the side of the road and they would be free to do so, of their own volition. There's nothing wrong with that, is there?

While I wouldn't do that, you're right, there is nothing wrong with that. I have no right to their help. I have no right to force them to help. They have to make their own choices and I cannot think for them, nor initiate force against them to make them choose as I would.

Words fail me. I have absolutely no idea how to respond to something like that. Consider my stunned by the vast illogic of your post.

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Hopefully the cosmos is not trying to reverse the charges.
Moderation in all things.

That's so poor. I really feel pity for you.

As long as you chose to do so freely, more power to you. Feel whatever you wish.

You see, unlike you, I would NEVER try to force you to feel as I wish you should.

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Cordially,
Rush

elrushbo2@theobviousgmail.com
Remove the obvious...

While I wouldn't do that, you're right, there is nothing wrong with that. I have no right to their help. I have no right to force them to help. They have to make their own choices and I cannot think for them, nor initiate force against them to make them choose as I would.

Words fail me. I have absolutely no idea how to respond to something like that. Consider my stunned by the vast illogic of your post.

What you should actually be stunned by is that you seem to think that you've made a point by simply stating a self-serving conclusion. That actually is illogical.

All I've said above is that no one has the right to initiate force against anyone else. There's no "vast illogic," involved. If you think there is, then present an argument. "I think it's OK to initiate force against others when..." Keeping in mind that if it's OK for you to do it to them, it's OK for them to do it to you.

More simply, by what right do you determine what others must think?

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Cordially,
Rush

elrushbo2@theobviousgmail.com
Remove the obvious...

Rush, even though I absolutely can't agree to such egocentric principles like yours, and I though feel pity for you should your children follow your path, I pay respect to the consequence you are showing when you really manage to live that. Opponent or not opponent: hat off.

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Account frozen...

Rush, even though I absolutely can't agree to such egocentric principles like yours, and I though feel pity for you should your children follow your path, I pay respect to the consequence you are showing when you really manage to live that. Opponent or not opponent: hat off.

I try like hell to live like that every day.

Thorin, you seem to think that the way you want to live is forbidden by the way I want to live. It's not. I think communes are wonderful things as long as people are there freely. I think helping the poor is a wonderful thing as long as the help is given willingly.

But not at the point of a gun. Once it's just a matter of force, well, there are plenty of people out there who will force you to do plenty of things against your will. I mean, would you want these egoists you hate so much using force to PREVENT you from helping others?

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Cordially,
Rush

elrushbo2@theobviousgmail.com
Remove the obvious...

Rush, even though I absolutely can't agree to such egocentric principles like yours, and I though feel pity for you should your children follow your path, I pay respect to the consequence you are showing when you really manage to live that. Opponent or not opponent: hat off.

I try like hell to live like that every day.

Thorin, you seem to think that the way you want to live is forbidden by the way I want to live. It's not. I think communes are wonderful things as long as people are there freely. I think helping the poor is a wonderful thing as long as the help is given willingly.

But not at the point of a gun. Once it's just a matter of force, well, there are plenty of people out there who will force you to do plenty of things against your will. I mean, would you want these egoists you hate so much using force to PREVENT you from helping others?

Of course not. Like you I'm an advocate of freedom.
But: unlike you, I'm advocating solidarity rather than self-interest, collectivity rather than egoism, communal property rather than private property of production means, working because I want to rather than working because I have to to earn my living.

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Account frozen...

While I wouldn't do that, you're right, there is nothing wrong with that. I have no right to their help. I have no right to force them to help. They have to make their own choices and I cannot think for them, nor initiate force against them to make them choose as I would.

Words fail me. I have absolutely no idea how to respond to something like that. Consider my stunned by the vast illogic of your post.

What you should actually be stunned by is that you seem to think that you've made a point by simply stating a self-serving conclusion. That actually is illogical.

All I've said above is that no one has the right to initiate force against anyone else. There's no "vast illogic," involved. If you think there is, then present an argument. "I think it's OK to initiate force against others when..." Keeping in mind that if it's OK for you to do it to them, it's OK for them to do it to you.

More simply, by what right do you determine what others must think?

People can think what they want all they want. When they attempt to bring certain of these thoughts to fruition, then it is time to act. You seem to feel that people can do as they please, right or wrong. Sorry. it's not that simple. Force is used every day to dictate choices. You can choose to obey the speed limit or you can choose not to.

Do you vote? If so, you are attempting to force your choice on the rest of the population. Every action that a human being takes is an act of force. Even in the act of breathing, you are forcing your existence on the rest of humanity. Simply taking part in this discussion, your are attempting to force your ideas as the best.

This is neither good or bad. It just is. The individual does not determine the implementation of any idea. It is implemented by consent of the group.

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Hopefully the cosmos is not trying to reverse the charges.
Moderation in all things.

Of course not. Like you I'm an advocate of freedom.

No, you're an advocate of forcing others to think as you do. I don't think as you do, I never will, and I will not pay for your silly ideas. If you are an "advocate of freedom," then you can understand that I am free NOT to pay for your crappy collective. If you can understand why you wouldn't want these egoists you hate so much using force to PREVENT you from helping others, you can understand why others would hate you using force to make them think as you do.

But: unlike you, I'm advocating solidarity rather than self-interest, collectivity rather than egoism, communal property rather than private property of production means, working because I want to rather than working because I have to to earn my living.

Dude, you can believe all this crap all you want. Do all of it that you wish. Be as solidarilicious as you want. Share YOUR property with the commune all you wish. The point is obvious: I couldn't care less what you (and those that think as you do) do, as long as you don't try to force me (or others) to think your way.

Your communes are fine. Pay for all the health care for others that you wish. Work as much or as little as you wish, I don't care. Do not try to force me to believe as you do, or pay for this crap for you. I will do fine on my own, with those that think as I do.

You see, I don't need you and I don't need to force you to believe as I do. History, on the other hand, has shown that you need me, deeply. You aren't going to be able to create high end pharmaceuticals on a commune--you'll have to buy them. From me. On the open market. Just like Cuba does and the Soviets did.

That's a real problem, you know, if you cannot develop multi-million dollar pharmaceuticals on your commune. Or, say, if you cannot build your own tractors and combines...

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Cordially,
Rush

elrushbo2@theobviousgmail.com
Remove the obvious...

People can think what they want all they want. When they attempt to bring certain of these thoughts to fruition, then it is time to act. You seem to feel that people can do as they please, right or wrong.

Then you cannot even read. I didn't say that they could do as they please, right or wrong, I said that they cannot initiate force or fraud against others. I said that there are rational principles for gov't, and that means that one cannot advocate the use of force against others simply because they agree with it.

Sorry. it's not that simple. Force is used every day to dictate choices. You can choose to obey the speed limit or you can choose not to.

You're right, but to make it very simple and not get into the details (yet), there ARE rational reasons for gov't, and there are rational roles for gov't. I've never said that there aren't. What I've said is that you (gov't) does not have the right to force me to think, or pay for, what you happen to agree is right.

Do you vote? If so, you are attempting to force your choice on the rest of the population.

You're dead wrong. I vote for the libertarian candidate, who would shut down 90+% of the gov't, in line with the rational roles for gov't. I'm not forcing ANYTHING on others, I'm attempting to let them choose for themselves. Something you seem incapable of understanding.

Every action that a human being takes is an act of force. Even in the act of breathing, you are forcing your existence on the rest of humanity. Simply taking part in this discussion, your are attempting to force your ideas as the best.

Then you cannot understand simple reality. I live because I am a part of the universe, just as all humans are. That is a part of reality and I do not "force[] my existence on the rest of humanity;" it/I simply IS.

By taking part in this discussion, I am not forcing my ideas on others, I'm letting them choose for themselves. I don't care what they choose. I don't care whether they succeed or not. I don't care what the outcome is. I don't care what the aggregate outcome is. They are rational humans and the decide for themselves--I would never, ever, substitute what I believe for what they believe because they have the right to think for themselves, regardless of what you and Thorin would force them to believe.

This is neither good or bad. It just is. The individual does not determine the implementation of any idea. It is implemented by consent of the group.

Right, fine. As long as you are happy with your little group, I don't care what you do. Pay for all the health care you wish. Be the bestest, cutest, tree-hugginest commune you want--it doesn't matter. As long as people are free to participate or not, I don't care what you do. Just don't initiate force against me to pay for your silly ideas. If your ideas are so kewl, people will line up like cattle to the slaughter to buy into them. If your ideas suck, people will avoid them like the plague. If you have to initiate force against them to make them believe as you wish, then your ideas likely suck, and trying to force them to believe as you do is dead wrong.

To be clear, I'll re-iterate: All I've said above is that no one has the right to initiate force against anyone else. There's no "vast illogic," involved. If you think there is, then present an argument. "I think it's OK to initiate force against others when..." Keeping in mind that if it's OK for you to do it to them, it's OK for them to do it to you.

More simply, by what right do you determine what others must think?

This is where you finish the sentence "I think it's OK to initiate force against others when..."

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Cordially,
Rush

elrushbo2@theobviousgmail.com
Remove the obvious...

Or they could choose to leave you to rot along the side of the road and they would be free to do so, of their own volition. There's nothing wrong with that, is there?

While I wouldn't do that, you're right, there is nothing wrong with that. I have no right to their help. I have no right to force them to help. They have to make their own choices and I cannot think for them, nor initiate force against them to make them choose as I would.

I'll be taking care of Rush in his old age. That should settle THIS argument. Next asinine proposition please?

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Founder of BOINC team Objectivists. Oh the humanity! Rational people crunching data!
I did NOT authorize this belly writing!

[quote]Rush, even though I absolutely can't agree to such egocentric principles like yours, and I though feel pity for you should your children follow your path, I pay respect to the consequence you are showing when you really manage to live that. Opponent or not opponent: hat off.

I try like hell to live like that every day.

Thorin, you seem to think that the way you want to live is forbidden by the way I want to live. It's not. I think communes are wonderful things as long as people are there freely. I think helping the poor is a wonderful thing as long as the help is given willingly.

But not at the point of a gun. Once it's just a matter of force, well, there are plenty of people out there who will force you to do plenty of things against your will. I mean, would you want these egoists you hate so much using force to PREVENT you from helping others?

Zwerg wrote:

Of course not. Like you I'm an advocate of freedom.
But: unlike you, I'm advocating solidarity rather than self-interest, collectivity rather than egoism, communal property rather than private property of production means, working because I want to rather than working because I have to to earn my living.

That's the biggest chuckle I've had in a week. Really, you should be in charge of the Jokes threads. 'Like you I'm an advocate of freedom' ??? You want to be free to deny others their freedoms is what you are stating. Are you not capable of realizing this? You want to force people to part with their property. You want to FORCE people to associate with those they choose not to associate with. You want to FORCE people to work where you say they should work under terms you wish to FORCE upon them. You want to FORCE people to use their property as YOU see fit. What kind of freedom is this?

Freedom from reality?

All collectivists like you are mystics through and through. You and the religious zealots are cut from the same cloth. You can't abide what the nature of reality is on a fundamental level and you try to cheat it. You try to cheat it by denying man his nature and right to exist. The mystic does the same but through rain dances, astrological charts, channeling of spirits or Sunday Mass.

You're ideology has been the main source of suffering the world over since the dawn of man natural disasters included.

Just remember that your collectivism is designed to benefit the incompetent and immoral at the expense of the able and good. Egoists don't need you.

Rush has a good idea. Maybe it's time we through in the towel and just pointed that finger of force in your direction, on a whim.....We'll flip a coin. I think that we'll make the state religion 'Baal' worship.

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Founder of BOINC team Objectivists. Oh the humanity! Rational people crunching data!
I did NOT authorize this belly writing!

[quote]Rush, even though I absolutely can't agree to such egocentric principles like yours, and I though feel pity for you should your children follow your path, I pay respect to the consequence you are showing when you really manage to live that. Opponent or not opponent: hat off.

I try like hell to live like that every day.

Thorin, you seem to think that the way you want to live is forbidden by the way I want to live. It's not. I think communes are wonderful things as long as people are there freely. I think helping the poor is a wonderful thing as long as the help is given willingly.

But not at the point of a gun. Once it's just a matter of force, well, there are plenty of people out there who will force you to do plenty of things against your will. I mean, would you want these egoists you hate so much using force to PREVENT you from helping others?

Zwerg wrote:

Of course not. Like you I'm an advocate of freedom.
But: unlike you, I'm advocating solidarity rather than self-interest, collectivity rather than egoism, communal property rather than private property of production means, working because I want to rather than working because I have to to earn my living.

That's the biggest chuckle I've had in a week. Really, you should be in charge of the Jokes threads. 'Like you I'm an advocate of freedom' ??? You want to be free to deny others their freedoms is what you are stating. Are you not capable of realizing this? You want to force people to part with their property. You want to FORCE people to associate with those they choose not to associate with. You want to FORCE people to work where you say they should work under terms you wish to FORCE upon them. You want to FORCE people to use their property as YOU see fit. What kind of freedom is this?

Freedom from reality?

Someone said once: property is theft. I agree with that. And no-one has the freedom to steal from others.

All collectivists like you are mystics through and through. You and the religious zealots are cut from the same cloth. You can't abide what the nature of reality is on a fundamental level and you try to cheat it. You try to cheat it by denying man his nature and right to exist. The mystic does the same but through rain dances, astrological charts, channeling of spirits or Sunday Mass.

You're ideology has been the main source of suffering the world over since the dawn of man natural disasters included.

The man's nature is not egocentric. It's charity. That's why people who show charity are called HUMAN.

Just remember that your collectivism is designed to benefit the incompetent and immoral at the expense of the able and good. Egoists don't need you.

Rush has a good idea. Maybe it's time we through in the towel and just pointed that finger of force in your direction, on a whim.....We'll flip a coin. I think that we'll make the state religion 'Baal' worship.

You already have two Baals to worship. Their names are Mammon and Ego.

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Account frozen...

Someone said once: property is theft. I agree with that. And no-one has the freedom to steal from others.

Does this kind of pretentious disregard for logic seem 'kewl' to you? Did it impress young students back when you were in school into believing you're wiser than they are?

Sigh....

The quote actually, is "all property is theft". This is an example of what some call concept stealing. The concept of property inherently contains the concept of just ownership, among other concepts. There's no such thing as rightfully possessing stolen property. And there's no such thing as a married bachelor or a square triangle. There's no such thing as a 'right' to violate other's rights. There's no rightful claim anyone can make on property that is not theirs; which is the twisted purpose of that non-tautology of yours that has sunk more nations into misery than anything last century.

It's apparent where your twisted little collectivism derives its justification for stealing from others. Surely, the good, strong, competent, and moral people you steal from and seek to enslave are REALLY no better than your pathetic soul. You're like the Golem in Lord of The Rings. Thirsting and reaching for what you have no right to grasp.

But the truth is you can evade reality and logic, the faculty that integrates it, all you wish but it will not evade you or people that think like you. Tis a pity that 100 million lost to starvation and mass graves, torture, murder, and useless warfare still hasn't taught you that.

Just keep advocating your thievery and slavery. There are plenty of communist/socialist countries out there that haven't fully collapsed yet. I guarantee we can find a way to pay for your emigration.

edit:sp/grammar

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Founder of BOINC team Objectivists. Oh the humanity! Rational people crunching data!
I did NOT authorize this belly writing!

Someone said once: property is theft. I agree with that. And no-one has the freedom to steal from others.

Does this kind of pretentious disregard for illogic seem 'kewl' to you? Does it impress young 15 year old students into believing you're wiser than they are?

Sigh....

The quote actually, is "all property is theft". This is an example of what some call concept stealing. The concept of property inherently contains the concept of just ownership, among other concepts. There's no such thing as rightfully possessing stolen property. And there's no such thing as a married bachelor or a square triangle. There's no rightful claim anyone can make on property that is not theirs; which is the twisted purpose of that non-tautology of yours that has sunk more nations into misery than anything last century.

It's apparent where your twisted little collectivism derives its justification for stealing from others. Surely, the good, strong, competent, and moral people you steal from and seek to enslave are REALLY no better than your pathetic soul. You're like the Golem in Lord of The Rings. Thirsting and reaching for what you have no right to grasp.

But the truth is you can evade reality and logic, the faculty that integrates it, all you wish but it will not evade you or people that think like you. Tis a pity that 100 million lost to starvation and mass graves, torture, murder, and useless warfare still hasn't taught you that.

Just keep advocating your thievery and slavery. There are plenty of communist/socialist countries out there that haven't fully collapsed yet. I guarantee we can find a way to pay for your emigration.

You really have no idea what communism is about. You see the picture your gov't taught you about the former socialist countries, and try to teach me about the bad sides of communism.
I have lived long enough in a socialist country that I have seen what was good & went wrong there, and why it couldn't work out well. And I can tell you: IF they had politically gone back after Stalin's death to the point before he perverted entire system, it could have run better. Unfortunately the system named socialism has been perverted by people like Mao Tse Tung, Stalin, or Ceaucescu, and has been corrupted by egocentric people who can't see the big picture by only focusing on their very own little self. Normally, the idea behind socialism (and as the higher level, communism) does not intend to use any force at all - except "moral force", or, the common opinion.

And the warfare was not started by a socialist country. They always defended themselves against being threatened or even invaded. (Ok, except now that North Korean wannabe-emperor)

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Account frozen...

You've gone off the bonkers haven't you?

I won't type out 250 history links for you. I'm too selfishly interested in my time to bother.

But to take one example of yours in regard to Stalin and the U.S.S.R.; After the Bolshevik revolution things began getting worse almost immediately. Within the first year the economic conditions had noticeably deteriorated and continued to stagnate.

Of course, none of that takes into account the Progroms and Gulags, the murders, and kidnapped.....the disappeared. All of this LONG before Stalin.

I've noticed that you seem to pine for your long lost DDR where about 1 in 3 citizens were government informants, spying on their neighbors. East German Stazi had warehouse after warehouse full of secretly captured SCENT VIALS of these gloriously collectivized human fodder for the utopian dream of you and yours. The scents were surreptitiously gathered so dogs could be used to track down citizens 'just in case'.

But you believe in 'freedom' "just like you, Rush", you said.

What a laugh.
You have to use barbed wire, police informants by the millions, dogs, minefields, prisons, censorship, torture, lies, etc etc to run your 'socialism' that you claim above I somehow don't understand.

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Founder of BOINC team Objectivists. Oh the humanity! Rational people crunching data!
I did NOT authorize this belly writing!

You've gone off the bonkers haven't you?

I won't type out 250 history links for you. I'm too selfishly interested in my time to bother.

But to take one example of yours in regard to Stalin and the U.S.S.R.; After the Bolshevik revolution things began getting worse almost immediately. Within the first year the economic conditions had noticeably deteriorated and continued to stagnate.

Of course, none of that takes into account the Progroms and Gulags, the murders, and kidnapped.....the disappeared. All of this LONG before Stalin.

I've noticed that you seem to pine for your long lost DDR where about 1 in 3 citizens were government informants, spying on their neighbors. East German Stazi had warehouse after warehouse full of secretly captured SCENT VIALS of these gloriously collectivized human fodder for the utopian dream of you and yours. The scents were surreptitiously gathered so dogs could be used to track down citizens 'just in case'.

But you believe in 'freedom' "just like you, Rush", you said.

What a laugh.
You have to use barbed wire, police informants by the millions, dogs, minefields, prisons, censorship, torture, lies, etc etc to run your 'socialism' that you claim above I somehow don't understand.

Well, R/B, I know and remember only too well how life was in GDR. I already have seen into my Stasi files, have read when I was spied out and by whom. And I know there also was such a scent vial with a specimen of me.
That's also why I wrote:

...I have seen what was good & wrong there, and why it couldn't work out well...

Do you really think I wished such a police state back?
The only thing I advocate is socialism according to the origin idea behind, not the perversions done out of it.

What I really have in mind is a class-free society, where no person is more powerful or more privileged than the others, where all citizens have the same rights, the same chances, about the same standard of life; where there is effectively no private property on production means; Where there is no unemployment, no poverty, no need to dump products or to destroy competitors in order to hold prizes or decrease them; Where there is no competition but a mutual togetherness. Where all goods & services are distributed to everyone in the same full amount. Where working means keeping the distribution running instead of staying alive. Where rules/laws are made by referendums, by everyone.

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Knock knock, no capitalist was here colonizing this land underneath our feet. Methinks you're deficient in education.

Why don't you tell the next black man or 'native american' (american tribalist would be a more accurate term) that you find engaged with you in conversation on this topic that you wish he' didn't live here amongst us though. That he's really best suited for scratching around in jungles and hunting with spears and such. Apparently that's where you think they should be.

That ought to go over real well.

R/B..what a strange and racist view you have of Africa. I am rather startled by this. Do you call black people 'spear shakers' too?

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Account frozen...

Knock knock, no capitalist was here colonizing this land underneath our feet. Methinks you're deficient in education.

Why don't you tell the next black man or 'native american' (american tribalist would be a more accurate term) that you find engaged with you in conversation on this topic that you wish he' didn't live here amongst us though. That he's really best suited for scratching around in jungles and hunting with spears and such. Apparently that's where you think they should be.

That ought to go over real well.

R/B..what a strange and racist view you have of Africa. I am rather startled by this. Do you call black people 'spear shakers' too?

Ummmm if you reread what I typed you will easily recognize that I am speaking out against that sort of low opinion of our fellow man. There's no possible way to read it otherwise.

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Founder of BOINC team Objectivists. Oh the humanity! Rational people crunching data!
I did NOT authorize this belly writing!