All of us, without exception, act in our own best interests. All of us get to define what is "our own best interest." Best interest (BI) may be money to Fred, leisure to Al, time to hang with family to Grace, something else to me. We make an error when we assume that everyone's BI is mere money or goods. And our BIs change with circumstances and time. For instance, I suspect that sitting senators define BI as an increase in their personal power. That makes power more important, to them, than money, family time, or national defense. After senators retire, I guess other things become BIs.

Socialism, along with a lot of other -isms, requires a strong central government. The problem with strong central gvmts is that they define for their citizens what the citizens BIs must be. The citizens don't get to choose.

I still think to focus on our own BIs is egoistic.
My grandfather for example, when he retired, he began to repair the bicycles of the youth of the entire village, and taught them how to repair them by themselves. His entire yard looked at times like a work-shop, he spend hours and hours a day with kids firstly unknown to him repairing their bikes, and more hours to search for spare parts for those bikes. He never wanted any money for this service, and when he had to buy some parts he asked for exactly the price he paid for it, not telling that he had to pay shipping costs or to drive to the next big town to get it. And he even refused to take any tip. To him, the most reward were the enthusiasm and gratefulness in the eyes of them kids, and the satisfaction about himself to still have enough skills to repair the bikes even though repairing some of them was more tricky than he was used to do...

Nice guy. And why did he do those nice things? Because he wanted to. HE wanted to. "To him, the most reward..." He saw it in his best interest. _He_ saw it as his BI. QED

---

fantumfighter

I still think to focus on our own BIs is egoistic.
My grandfather for example, when he retired, he began to repair the bicycles of the youth of the entire village, and taught them how to repair them by themselves. His entire yard looked at times like a work-shop, he spend hours and hours a day with kids firstly unknown to him repairing their bikes, and more hours to search for spare parts for those bikes. He never wanted any money for this service, and when he had to buy some parts he asked for exactly the price he paid for it, not telling that he had to pay shipping costs or to drive to the next big town to get it. And he even refused to take any tip. To him, the most reward were the enthusiasm and gratefulness in the eyes of them kids, and the satisfaction about himself to still have enough skills to repair the bikes even though repairing some of them was more tricky than he was used to do...

So what? You grandfather defined his BI as helping those kids. He got to feel good about himself, he got to do something for the neighborhood kids, and he got to think he made a difference. It was relatively painless and it was something he liked to do. Rest assured, if every time he did it, someone kicked his ass and spit in his face, he would have stopped.

But other people define their best interests differently than he did. If you can understand why it's important that your grandfather had the freedom to define his best interests for himself, you can understand why it's important that others can do the same thing--regardless of what YOU think is best for them.

---

Cordially,
Rush

elrushbo2@theobviousgmail.com
Remove the obvious...

John McCleoud wrothe:

Unbridled capitalism has its problems mainly in the form of monopolies. Once a monopoly has been established, there is a much lower incentive for that monopoly to either improve service, or to avoid price gouging. Quite often a monopoly will have a war chest large enough to drop prices and improve service for long enough to put any new competition out of business. Then it is back to the high prices and poor service. A truly competetive market is much more efficient at providing service.

But only governments have historically created monopolies not capitalistic systems.

as an aside people interested in this topic may want to enjoy the Ludwig Von Mises site concerning the Austrian school of economics. It's painful and bad for my blood pressure to read most of the posts in here. A man can only take so much frustration in a sitting. :-(

Mises.org

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Founder of BOINC team Objectivists. Oh the humanity! Rational people crunching data!
I did NOT authorize this belly writing!

Only those who couldn't join in, who still were full of this sicknesses called greed and egoism, made these experiments fail.
Let's teach the entire nowadays' children generation ways to get rid of egoism, corruption and greed, and to see their neighbor as a human no matter what he or she possesses, and our grandchildren or great-grandchildren will live in a real social society. It's all a matter of education.

Sigh.....it's the mean nasty egoists like me that conspire to thwart your utopia at every turn. Millions upon millions killed in pursuit of your Socialist dream worldwide and you still persist. You still desire this 'moral good'. But the truth is that EGOISM is the good. You've not realized it. Hell, these intellectually lazy 'conservatives' don't know it either. They don't even know what it is they're actually trying to conserve much less WHY they want to conserve it.

Zwerg, have you ever thought of what would happen if the next time you saw some passerby who was wealthier than you if you just imagined he didn't exist at all? All of his wealth is simply molecules arranged in a certain way. Molecules you didn't create, produce, or organize. He's taken nothing from you and in fact most of what YOU HAVE is made possible by people like him. Not by the 'workers'. The workers are the fleas riding the backside of a dog. Funny to hear fleas complain that their existence would just be so much sweeter, happier, fuller of sunshine, whatever if the dog just wasn't around!

---

Founder of BOINC team Objectivists. Oh the humanity! Rational people crunching data!
I did NOT authorize this belly writing!

Thorin,
I'd really love to see such a world. But let's be honest - the problem is most people are completely selfish and self-centered. A lot of people are only interested in social stuff as long as they profit themselves. But there is a minority that indeed cares for others.

To paraphrase Ayn Rand:

To say that most of mankind is selfish is paying it a compliment it doesn't deserve.

Care for others? A good way to demonstrate this caring for others is to start by not initiating force against them and letting them live their lives and own their bodies and products of their efforts and to dispose of them as they see fit.

Only true Egoism and 'selfishness' is consistent with a peaceful and prosperous society.

---

Founder of BOINC team Objectivists. Oh the humanity! Rational people crunching data!
I did NOT authorize this belly writing!

Socialism/Communism are not bad ideas, just extremely hard to translate from paper to reality.

That's the main reason why socialism and communism are bad ideas.

They are not true in the sense that they do not correspond to the strictures of reality; not to the laws of the universe or human nature so to speak.

---

Founder of BOINC team Objectivists. Oh the humanity! Rational people crunching data!
I did NOT authorize this belly writing!

Only those who couldn't join in, who still were full of this sicknesses called greed and egoism, made these experiments fail.
Let's teach the entire nowadays' children generation ways to get rid of egoism, corruption and greed, and to see their neighbor as a human no matter what he or she possesses, and our grandchildren or great-grandchildren will live in a real social society. It's all a matter of education.

Sigh.....it's the mean nasty egoists like me that conspire to thwart your utopia at every turn. Millions upon millions killed in pursuit of your Socialist dream worldwide and you still persist. You still desire this 'moral good'. But the truth is that EGOISM is the good. You've not realized it. Hell, these intellectually lazy 'conservatives' don't know it either. They don't even know what it is they're actually trying to conserve much less WHY they want to conserve it.

Your advocating the egoism reminds me on verses in a book I threw away more than a decade ago:

Mercy let be off; damn them who pity! Kill and torture; spare not; be upon them! ...
Therefore the kings of the earth shall be Kings for ever: the slaves shall serve. There is none that shall be cast down or lifted up ...
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

Zwerg, have you ever thought of what would happen if the next time you saw some passerby who was wealthier than you if you just imagined he didn't exist at all? All of his wealth is simply molecules arranged in a certain way. Molecules you didn't create, produce, or organize. He's taken nothing from you and in fact most of what YOU HAVE is made possible by people like him. Not by the 'workers'. The workers are the fleas riding the backside of a dog. Funny to hear fleas complain that their existence would just be so much sweeter, happier, fuller of sunshine, whatever if the dog just wasn't around!

I know many people who are wealthier than me, and I don't envy them their wealth. The only thing I am against is exploitation. When they got their wealth by their own work or abilities then it's fine with me. But exploitation of others is not acceptable to me - imho such people don't have earned to be wealthy.

---

Account frozen...

Only those who couldn't join in, who still were full of this sicknesses called greed and egoism, made these experiments fail.
Let's teach the entire nowadays' children generation ways to get rid of egoism, corruption and greed, and to see their neighbor as a human no matter what he or she possesses, and our grandchildren or great-grandchildren will live in a real social society. It's all a matter of education.

Sigh.....it's the mean nasty egoists like me that conspire to thwart your utopia at every turn. Millions upon millions killed in pursuit of your Socialist dream worldwide and you still persist. You still desire this 'moral good'. But the truth is that EGOISM is the good. You've not realized it. Hell, these intellectually lazy 'conservatives' don't know it either. They don't even know what it is they're actually trying to conserve much less WHY they want to conserve it.

Your advocating the egoism reminds me on verses in a book I threw away more than a decade ago:

Mercy let be off; damn them who pity! Kill and torture; spare not; be upon them! ...
Therefore the kings of the earth shall be Kings for ever: the slaves shall serve. There is none that shall be cast down or lifted up ...
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

What gave you the idea that a rational egoist like me advocates killing and torturing? Or slavery? You realize you're the only one advocating systems that have KILLED MILLIONS AND MILLIONS!.....You advocate sticking guns in people's faces to do your bidding and calll someone like me who believes people should be free from the initiation of force a monster and slave master.

Zwerg, have you ever thought of what would happen if the next time you saw some passerby who was wealthier than you if you just imagined he didn't exist at all? All of his wealth is simply molecules arranged in a certain way. Molecules you didn't create, produce, or organize. He's taken nothing from you and in fact most of what YOU HAVE is made possible by people like him. Not by the 'workers'. The workers are the fleas riding the backside of a dog. Funny to hear fleas complain that their existence would just be so much sweeter, happier, fuller of sunshine, whatever if the dog just wasn't around!

I know many people who are wealthier than me, and I don't envy them their wealth. The only thing I am against is exploitation. When they got their wealth by their own work or abilities then it's fine with me. But exploitation of others is not acceptable to me - imho such people don't have earned to be wealthy.

What gave you the idea that a rational egoist like me advocates killing and torturing? Or slavery? You realize you're the only one advocating systems that have KILLED MILLIONS AND MILLIONS!.....You advocate sticking guns in people's faces to do your bidding and calll someone like me who believes people should be free from the initiation of force a monster and slave master.


I've never met or heard of a true capitalist who has exploited anyone. Care to give some examples?

Furthermore, if you or anyone else feels exploited then use your freedom of choice to remove yourself from your exploiter. Noone has the right to force you into associations...............except a heavy handed government of the type you advocate of course.

---

Founder of BOINC team Objectivists. Oh the humanity! Rational people crunching data!
I did NOT authorize this belly writing!

Only those who couldn't join in, who still were full of this sicknesses called greed and egoism, made these experiments fail.
Let's teach the entire nowadays' children generation ways to get rid of egoism, corruption and greed, and to see their neighbor as a human no matter what he or she possesses, and our grandchildren or great-grandchildren will live in a real social society. It's all a matter of education.

Sigh.....it's the mean nasty egoists like me that conspire to thwart your utopia at every turn. Millions upon millions killed in pursuit of your Socialist dream worldwide and you still persist. You still desire this 'moral good'. But the truth is that EGOISM is the good. You've not realized it. Hell, these intellectually lazy 'conservatives' don't know it either. They don't even know what it is they're actually trying to conserve much less WHY they want to conserve it.

Your advocating the egoism reminds me on verses in a book I threw away more than a decade ago:

Mercy let be off; damn them who pity! Kill and torture; spare not; be upon them! ...
Therefore the kings of the earth shall be Kings for ever: the slaves shall serve. There is none that shall be cast down or lifted up ...
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

What gave you the idea that a rational egoist like me advocates killing and torturing? Or slavery? You realize you're the only one advocating systems that have KILLED MILLIONS AND MILLIONS!.....You advocate sticking guns in people's faces to do your bidding and calll someone like me who believes people should be free from the initiation of force a monster and slave master.

Zwerg, have you ever thought of what would happen if the next time you saw some passerby who was wealthier than you if you just imagined he didn't exist at all? All of his wealth is simply molecules arranged in a certain way. Molecules you didn't create, produce, or organize. He's taken nothing from you and in fact most of what YOU HAVE is made possible by people like him. Not by the 'workers'. The workers are the fleas riding the backside of a dog. Funny to hear fleas complain that their existence would just be so much sweeter, happier, fuller of sunshine, whatever if the dog just wasn't around!

I know many people who are wealthier than me, and I don't envy them their wealth. The only thing I am against is exploitation. When they got their wealth by their own work or abilities then it's fine with me. But exploitation of others is not acceptable to me - imho such people don't have earned to be wealthy.

What gave you the idea that a rational egoist like me advocates killing and torturing? Or slavery? You realize you're the only one advocating systems that have KILLED MILLIONS AND MILLIONS!.....You advocate sticking guns in people's faces to do your bidding and calll someone like me who believes people should be free from the initiation of force a monster and slave master.


I've never met or heard of a true capitalist who has exploited anyone. Care to give some examples?

Furthermore, if you or anyone else feels exploited then use your freedom of choice to remove yourself from your exploiter. Noone has the right to force you into associations...............except a heavy handed government of the type you advocate of course.

Knock, knock. Hey, R/B, there's a few thousand Africans and Native Americans here that would like to talk to you about capitalism and exploitation.

---

Hopefully the cosmos is not trying to reverse the charges.
Moderation in all things.

Knock knock, no capitalist was here colonizing this land underneath our feet. Methinks you're deficient in education.

Why don't you tell the next black man or 'native american' (american tribalist would be a more accurate term) that you find engaged with you in conversation on this topic that you wish he' didn't live here amongst us though. That he's really best suited for scratching around in jungles and hunting with spears and such. Apparently that's where you think they should be.

That ought to go over real well.

---

Founder of BOINC team Objectivists. Oh the humanity! Rational people crunching data!
I did NOT authorize this belly writing!

Only those who couldn't join in, who still were full of this sicknesses called greed and egoism, made these experiments fail.
Let's teach the entire nowadays' children generation ways to get rid of egoism, corruption and greed, and to see their neighbor as a human no matter what he or she possesses, and our grandchildren or great-grandchildren will live in a real social society. It's all a matter of education.

Sigh.....it's the mean nasty egoists like me that conspire to thwart your utopia at every turn. Millions upon millions killed in pursuit of your Socialist dream worldwide and you still persist. You still desire this 'moral good'. But the truth is that EGOISM is the good. You've not realized it. Hell, these intellectually lazy 'conservatives' don't know it either. They don't even know what it is they're actually trying to conserve much less WHY they want to conserve it.

Your advocating the egoism reminds me on verses in a book I threw away more than a decade ago:

Mercy let be off; damn them who pity! Kill and torture; spare not; be upon them! ...
Therefore the kings of the earth shall be Kings for ever: the slaves shall serve. There is none that shall be cast down or lifted up ...
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

What gave you the idea that a rational egoist like me advocates killing and torturing? Or slavery? You realize you're the only one advocating systems that have KILLED MILLIONS AND MILLIONS!.....You advocate sticking guns in people's faces to do your bidding and calll someone like me who believes people should be free from the initiation of force a monster and slave master.

Zwerg, have you ever thought of what would happen if the next time you saw some passerby who was wealthier than you if you just imagined he didn't exist at all? All of his wealth is simply molecules arranged in a certain way. Molecules you didn't create, produce, or organize. He's taken nothing from you and in fact most of what YOU HAVE is made possible by people like him. Not by the 'workers'. The workers are the fleas riding the backside of a dog. Funny to hear fleas complain that their existence would just be so much sweeter, happier, fuller of sunshine, whatever if the dog just wasn't around!

I know many people who are wealthier than me, and I don't envy them their wealth. The only thing I am against is exploitation. When they got their wealth by their own work or abilities then it's fine with me. But exploitation of others is not acceptable to me - imho such people don't have earned to be wealthy.

What gave you the idea that a rational egoist like me advocates killing and torturing? Or slavery? You realize you're the only one advocating systems that have KILLED MILLIONS AND MILLIONS!.....You advocate sticking guns in people's faces to do your bidding and calll someone like me who believes people should be free from the initiation of force a monster and slave master.


I've never met or heard of a true capitalist who has exploited anyone. Care to give some examples?

Furthermore, if you or anyone else feels exploited then use your freedom of choice to remove yourself from your exploiter. Noone has the right to force you into associations...............except a heavy handed government of the type you advocate of course.

Exploitation of workers is an inseparable principle of capitalism, no matter how you call it. The workers are forced to work for the entrepreneur to get a tiny part of what they work for, while the entrepreneurs draw the most part of it in their own pocket. No capitalists have exploited anyone? No capitalist were colonizing any country? Either you are ignorant enough to be too blind to see this, or you are defining exploitation otherwise than anybody else does, which also shows ignorance.

ex·ploi·ta·tion

noun
Definition:

unfair treatment or use: the practice of taking selfish or unfair advantage of a person or situation, usually for personal gain

The act of utilizing something in an unjust, cruel or selfish manner for one's own advantage. It is this meaning of exploitation which is discussed below.

In political economy, economics, and sociology, exploitation involves a persistent social relationship in which certain persons are being mistreated or unfairly used for the benefit of others. This corresponds to one ethical conception of exploitation, that is, the treatment of human beings as mere means to an end — or as mere "objects". In different terms, "exploitation" refers to the use of people as a resource, with little or no consideration of their well-being. This can take the following basic forms:

* taking something off a person or group that rightfully belongs to them
* short-changing people in trade
* directly or indirectly forcing somebody to work for you
* using somebody against his will, or without his consent or knowledge
* imposing an arbitrary differential treatment of people to the advantage of some and the disadvantage of others (as in ascriptive discrimination)

Most often, the word exploitation is used to refer to economic exploitation; that is, the act of using another person's labor without offering them an adequate compensation.

colonialism - exploitation by a stronger country of weaker one; the use of the weaker country's resources to strengthen and enrich the stronger country

And: The system I advocate has killed no-one. Because until now it has been existing only in small areas, for a historically very short time.

com·mu·nism

noun
Definition:

classless political system: the political theory or system in which all property and wealth is owned in a classless society by all the members of that society

[Mid-19th century. < French communisme< commun "common" < Latin communis]

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Account frozen...

Has the Bible described communism?

Acts 4:32-35
All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had.
With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and much grace was upon them all.
There were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned lands or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales
and put it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to anyone as he had need.

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Account frozen...

Knock knock, no capitalist was here colonizing this land underneath our feet. Methinks you're deficient in education.

Why don't you tell the next black man or 'native american' (american tribalist would be a more accurate term) that you find engaged with you in conversation on this topic that you wish he' didn't live here amongst us though. That he's really best suited for scratching around in jungles and hunting with spears and such. Apparently that's where you think they should be.

That ought to go over real well.

I'm not sure what you mean by "no capitalist was here colonizing this land...".

Why do you think Jamestown was founded? Why do you think slaves were used to work on plantations?

Granted the Native Americans are managing to get back at the White man by taking all his money in casinos, but do you really believe that we put them on reservations because we wanted to improve their lives or because we wanted to exploit the land that they lived and hunted on.

You seem to be under the impression that we did the slaves a favor by bringing them over here.

---

Hopefully the cosmos is not trying to reverse the charges.
Moderation in all things.

Knock knock, no capitalist was here colonizing this land underneath our feet. Methinks you're deficient in education.

Why don't you tell the next black man or 'native american' (american tribalist would be a more accurate term) that you find engaged with you in conversation on this topic that you wish he' didn't live here amongst us though. That he's really best suited for scratching around in jungles and hunting with spears and such. Apparently that's where you think they should be.

That ought to go over real well.

I'm not sure what you mean by "no capitalist was here colonizing this land...".

Why do you think Jamestown was founded? Why do you think slaves were used to work on plantations?

Granted the Native Americans are managing to get back at the White man by taking all his money in casinos, but do you really believe that we put them on reservations because we wanted to improve their lives or because we wanted to exploit the land that they lived and hunted on.

You seem to be under the impression that we did the slaves a favor by bringing them over here.

Ask any African-American (the current politically accepted term) who has ever gone to Africa what he/she thinks. I lived in Africa for 5 years and witnessed things first hand, and believe me, they all are glad that their ancestors made the boat. Within 30 days 90% of them are using the "N" word towards the locals profusely.

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Account frozen...

Exploitation of workers is an inseparable principle of capitalism, no matter how you call it. The workers are forced to work for the entrepreneur to get a tiny part of what they work for, while the entrepreneurs draw the most part of it in their own pocket.

Well, then, why isn't the UAW building and selling their own cars? You have plenty of excuses on why the UAW can't seem to build cars, yet every car manufacturer in the world manages to get past your silly excuses and build and sell cars every day. So there is no reason the UAW couldn't do the same. Yet they don't...

No one is forced to work for GM, or anywhere else. And if, as you're fond of saying, that dem workers don' need dem damn managers and shareholders, well, den NONE of dem should be outta work. Not one.

But they are.

And: The system I advocate has killed no-one. Because until now it has been existing only in small areas, for a historically very short time.

Ummmm, except that you consistently advocate the use of force to make others do/think/pay as you think they should. That is the advocation of force, and yes, as Robert says, it has slaughtered MILLIONS upon millions.

Com·mu·nism: classless political system: the political theory or system in which all property and wealth is owned in a classless society by all the members of that society

You see, even this isn't inconsistent with capitalism as long as the people involved do it voluntarily, it doesn't matter. It's even OK for your hated "egoists" to play along in a commune, if they choose to do so freely.

But you guys always need a wall.

---

Cordially,
Rush

elrushbo2@theobviousgmail.com
Remove the obvious...

Exploitation of workers is an inseparable principle of capitalism, no matter how you call it. The workers are forced to work for the entrepreneur to get a tiny part of what they work for, while the entrepreneurs draw the most part of it in their own pocket.

Well, then, why isn't the UAW building and selling their own cars? You have plenty of excuses on why the UAW can't seem to build cars, yet every car manufacturer in the world manages to get past your silly excuses and build and sell cars every day. So there is no reason the UAW couldn't do the same. Yet they don't...

No one is forced to work for GM, or anywhere else. And if, as you're fond of saying, that dem workers don' need dem damn managers and shareholders, well, den NONE of dem should be outta work. Not one.

But they are.

And: The system I advocate has killed no-one. Because until now it has been existing only in small areas, for a historically very short time.

Ummmm, except that you consistently advocate the use of force to make others do/think/pay as you think they should. That is the advocation of force, and yes, as Robert says, it has slaughtered MILLIONS upon millions.

Com·mu·nism: classless political system: the political theory or system in which all property and wealth is owned in a classless society by all the members of that society

You see, even this isn't inconsistent with capitalism as long as the people involved do it voluntarily, it doesn't matter. It's even OK for your hated "egoists" to play along in a commune, if they choose to do so freely.

But you guys always need a wall.

But this time the wall is in your head, not in mine.
exploitation remains exploitation, whether the exploited person is content with that treatment or not.
As I repeatedly stated, it's not a matter of force to reach a better system, it's a matter of social education. To teach ppl that it's better for them to live solidarity, to care for each other is not forcing them. Has Jesus forced his disciples to follow His rules? Nope. He taught them to do so.

---

Account frozen...

Exploitation of workers is an inseparable principle of capitalism, no matter how you call it. The workers are forced to work for the entrepreneur to get a tiny part of what they work for, while the entrepreneurs draw the most part of it in their own pocket.

Well, then, why isn't the UAW building and selling their own cars? You have plenty of excuses on why the UAW can't seem to build cars, yet every car manufacturer in the world manages to get past your silly excuses and build and sell cars every day. So there is no reason the UAW couldn't do the same. Yet they don't...

No one is forced to work for GM, or anywhere else. And if, as you're fond of saying, that dem workers don' need dem damn managers and shareholders, well, den NONE of dem should be outta work. Not one.

But they are.

And: The system I advocate has killed no-one. Because until now it has been existing only in small areas, for a historically very short time.

Ummmm, except that you consistently advocate the use of force to make others do/think/pay as you think they should. That is the advocation of force, and yes, as Robert says, it has slaughtered MILLIONS upon millions.

Com·mu·nism: classless political system: the political theory or system in which all property and wealth is owned in a classless society by all the members of that society

You see, even this isn't inconsistent with capitalism as long as the people involved do it voluntarily, it doesn't matter. It's even OK for your hated "egoists" to play along in a commune, if they choose to do so freely.

But you guys always need a wall.

But this time the wall is in your head, not in mine.
exploitation remains exploitation, whether the exploited person is content with that treatment or not.

No, that isn't true because your definition of exploitation does not apply to every single person on earth because you said it does. If someone is content with their treatment, their pay, their conditions, the perquisites, whatever, if they freely choose to take part and are content, then, by definition they are NOT being exploited, no matter what you happen to think about it. Why? Because people are free to think for themselves, regardless of how fast you would try to take that away from them. Some will work for more pay, some will work for less pay with child care, some will work for even less with childcare, flexible hours, and stock options. That you happen to decide for them that they are exploited doesn't mean that they are.

As I repeatedly stated, it's not a matter of force to reach a better system, it's a matter of social education. To teach ppl that it's better for them to live solidarity, to care for each other is not forcing them. Has Jesus forced his disciples to follow His rules? Nope. He taught them to do so.

Except that I, and everyone that thinks as I do, will teach our children to ignore your ideas. I will teach them that they are right to care for others, as long as those others do not use force, or demand that care. I will teach them to run screaming from people like you and avoid you like the plague. I will demonstrate clearly why your ideas fail, using countless examples from history. I will show them WHY the UAW can't build cars without GM and why your position is fatally flawed. I, and everyone like me, will teach them not to pay any attention to your system.

And since I'm free to do so, what happens then? I'm teaching them to fight your "social education" at every opportunity; how then will you obtain your goals without force? I/they won't do it willingly, so how will you do it?

Oh, and if Jeebus' disciples started disagreeing with him, he would have just fired them and gotten others.

---

Cordially,
Rush

elrushbo2@theobviousgmail.com
Remove the obvious...

Exploitation of workers is an inseparable principle of capitalism, no matter how you call it. The workers are forced to work for the entrepreneur to get a tiny part of what they work for, while the entrepreneurs draw the most part of it in their own pocket.

Well, then, why isn't the UAW building and selling their own cars? You have plenty of excuses on why the UAW can't seem to build cars, yet every car manufacturer in the world manages to get past your silly excuses and build and sell cars every day. So there is no reason the UAW couldn't do the same. Yet they don't...

No one is forced to work for GM, or anywhere else. And if, as you're fond of saying, that dem workers don' need dem damn managers and shareholders, well, den NONE of dem should be outta work. Not one.

But they are.

And: The system I advocate has killed no-one. Because until now it has been existing only in small areas, for a historically very short time.

Ummmm, except that you consistently advocate the use of force to make others do/think/pay as you think they should. That is the advocation of force, and yes, as Robert says, it has slaughtered MILLIONS upon millions.

Com·mu·nism: classless political system: the political theory or system in which all property and wealth is owned in a classless society by all the members of that society

You see, even this isn't inconsistent with capitalism as long as the people involved do it voluntarily, it doesn't matter. It's even OK for your hated "egoists" to play along in a commune, if they choose to do so freely.

But you guys always need a wall.

But this time the wall is in your head, not in mine.
exploitation remains exploitation, whether the exploited person is content with that treatment or not.

No, that isn't true because your definition of exploitation does not apply to every single person on earth because you said it does. If someone is content with their treatment, their pay, their conditions, the perquisites, whatever, if they freely choose to take part and are content, then, by definition they are NOT being exploited, no matter what you happen to think about it. Why? Because people are free to think for themselves, regardless of how fast you would try to take that away from them. Some will work for more pay, some will work for less pay with child care, some will work for even less with childcare, flexible hours, and stock options. That you happen to decide for them that they are exploited doesn't mean that they are.

As I repeatedly stated, it's not a matter of force to reach a better system, it's a matter of social education. To teach ppl that it's better for them to live solidarity, to care for each other is not forcing them. Has Jesus forced his disciples to follow His rules? Nope. He taught them to do so.

Except that I, and everyone that thinks as I do, will teach our children to ignore your ideas. I will teach them that they are right to care for others, as long as those others do not use force, or demand that care. I will teach them to run screaming from people like you and avoid you like the plague. I will demonstrate clearly why your ideas fail, using countless examples from history. I will show them WHY the UAW can't build cars without GM and why your position is fatally flawed. I, and everyone like me, will teach them not to pay any attention to your system.

And since I'm free to do so, what happens then? I'm teaching them to fight your "social education" at every opportunity; how then will you obtain your goals without force? I/they won't do it willingly, so how will you do it?

Oh, and if Jeebus' disciples started disagreeing with him, he would have just fired them and gotten others.

Got your room reserved at the nursing home yet? Surely you don't expect your children to take care of you in your old age.

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Hopefully the cosmos is not trying to reverse the charges.
Moderation in all things.

Got your room reserved at the nursing home yet? Surely you don't expect your children to take care of you in your old age.

No, I don't expect them to do that. Why would I want to place such a burden on them?

Did you have anything substantive to add? I mean, my children could choose to help me, and they're free to do so, of their own volition. There's nothing wrong with that.

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Cordially,
Rush

elrushbo2@theobviousgmail.com
Remove the obvious...

Got your room reserved at the nursing home yet? Surely you don't expect your children to take care of you in your old age.

No, I don't expect them to do that. Why would I want to place such a burden on them?

Did you have anything substantive to add? I mean, my children could choose to help me, and they're free to do so, of their own volition. There's nothing wrong with that.

Or they could choose to leave you to rot along the side of the road and they would be free to do so, of their own volition. There's nothing wrong with that, is there?

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Hopefully the cosmos is not trying to reverse the charges.
Moderation in all things.