AMERICA: Income taxes ILLEGAL?


log in

Advanced search

Message boards : Politics : AMERICA: Income taxes ILLEGAL?

1 · 2 · 3 · 4 . . . 5 · Next
Author Message
MrGray
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 17 Aug 05
Posts: 3177
Credit: 60,411
RAC: 0
United States
Message 604438 - Posted: 16 Jul 2007, 8:13:08 UTC
Last modified: 16 Jul 2007, 9:12:23 UTC

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1656880303867390173

1 hour 51 mins
____________
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

Profile thorin belvrog
Volunteer tester
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 29 Sep 06
Posts: 6418
Credit: 8,893
RAC: 0
Germany
Message 604460 - Posted: 16 Jul 2007, 8:56:37 UTC
Last modified: 16 Jul 2007, 8:57:18 UTC

Here you can find a trailer of and information about "AMERICA: Freedom To Fascism."

In her review, Devra Hill wrote:
I don't know anyone who enjoys paying income taxes but most people think it's the law. This eye-opening film exposes the fact that there is no law saying the average American citizen has to pay income taxes. Aaron Russo is an award winning filmmaker who produced "The Rose" and "Trading Places." Recently, he decided to discover the truth behind this "no law" rumor concerning the ratification of the 16th Amendment also known as the "Tax Amendment."

He interviews government officials from the IRS, FBI, Politicians and tax attorneys and authors to find out exactly what is the Federal Reserve. Even he is surprised that the Federal Reserve is not part of our federal government but is a private banking corporation operated by unidentified private bankers. The Federal Reserve has the right to counterfeit money because now money is not backed by gold! The Federal Reserve is a banking cartel. Thus the government works for a private bank and the bank works for its owners. The Federal Reserve is an illegal corporation.

Many people think we have to pay income taxes to help pay for government services but there are many other taxes that pay for those services. This tax is what the English fought against, "Taxation without representation." Income taxes could be compared to paying for protection against the government so they won't put you in jail but if every citizen stood up and said "No, I'm not paying income taxes" the government would have to change just from the overwhelming population of protesters. The jails are so crowded now that they couldn't possibly put all the law-abiding citizens in also. Recently our so-called Democratic government is talking about forcing everyone to carry a National ID Card and having a computer "Spy Chip" placed under our skin to track every move we make. We must fight back against this.

Watching "America: Freedom to Fascism" was like watching a true life horror film. A Fascist Nation is one in which big government and big corporations work together to stifle the people and Mr. Russo says he hopes he can wake up Americans to the myth that America is NOT still the land of liberty that it started out to be.

____________
Account frozen...

MrGray
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 17 Aug 05
Posts: 3177
Credit: 60,411
RAC: 0
United States
Message 604466 - Posted: 16 Jul 2007, 9:08:20 UTC
Last modified: 16 Jul 2007, 9:09:18 UTC

The entire movie:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1656880303867390173

http://www.freedomtofascism.com
1 hr 51 min 16 sec - May 5, 2007
www.freedomtofascism.com




.
____________
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

MrGray
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 17 Aug 05
Posts: 3177
Credit: 60,411
RAC: 0
United States
Message 604479 - Posted: 16 Jul 2007, 9:50:47 UTC
Last modified: 16 Jul 2007, 9:59:07 UTC

Not the entire movie. Sorry

Enough to get the wheels turning, though.

Keppler: I meant that this should be enough to get you thinking.
____________
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

MrGray
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 17 Aug 05
Posts: 3177
Credit: 60,411
RAC: 0
United States
Message 604484 - Posted: 16 Jul 2007, 10:01:51 UTC
Last modified: 16 Jul 2007, 10:02:16 UTC

Overview/director interview:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3254488777215293198
____________
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

John McLeod VII
Volunteer developer
Volunteer tester
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 15 Jul 99
Posts: 24806
Credit: 530,327
RAC: 330
United States
Message 604516 - Posted: 16 Jul 2007, 11:49:40 UTC

This theory has been tested in court several times. The IRS always wins, and the consequences for those that attempt to not pay taxes are fairly severe.
____________


BOINC WIKI

MrGray
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 17 Aug 05
Posts: 3177
Credit: 60,411
RAC: 0
United States
Message 604522 - Posted: 16 Jul 2007, 12:10:05 UTC
Last modified: 16 Jul 2007, 12:44:34 UTC

Not if everyone stands up.

Divided we get the shaft.

Is "Home of the brave" as false as, "Land of the free?"

See: http://setiathome.berkeley.edu/forum_thread.php?id=40927
____________
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

Profile Rush
Volunteer tester
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 3 Apr 99
Posts: 3133
Credit: 302,569
RAC: 0
United Kingdom
Message 604580 - Posted: 16 Jul 2007, 15:19:10 UTC - in response to Message 604522.

Not if everyone stands up.

Divided we get the shaft.

Is "Home of the brave" as false as, "Land of the free?"

Hmmmm, if everyone "stands up," and doesn't pay their taxes, how are you and Moore going to fund your precious "free" health care system?


____________
Cordially,
Rush

elrushbo2@theobviousgmail.com
Remove the obvious...

Profile KWSN - MajorKong
Volunteer tester
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 5 Jan 00
Posts: 1627
Credit: 940,050
RAC: 178
United States
Message 604614 - Posted: 16 Jul 2007, 16:44:00 UTC

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!

Oh, this is getting good.....

heh heh heh....

The Federal Income Tax *is* expressly forbidden under the original US Constitution. Yes, there had to be an Amendment to the Constitution to explicitly authorize it. Down through the years, I have heard that there are questions as to whether or not that Amendment was actually and correctly ratified. But, you know what? It just doesn't matter. Down through the years since the Income Tax started, there have been many, many court challenges to its validity. Without exception, these cases have been decided in favor of the Income Tax. As far as the court system in the US is concerned, that Amendment is valid and the Income Tax is legal, and in this case thats the ONLY thing that matters.

The IRS is an evil organization, I will grant you that. If the IRS has a problem with what tax you have (or have not) paid, you don't get a trial in a regular court. It goes before 'Tax Court'. The Judge and all the Lawyers in Tax Court are IRS employees. There is no jury. You don't have very much in the way of rights of appeal to the regular judicial court system. To put it bluntly, you are screwed. The IRS has the power and authority to, at will, seize any and all of your assets, and to have you jailed for LONG periods of time. Remember, they didn't 'get' Al Capone on charges of him being a thief, murderer, mafia boss, or bootlegger. Al Capone was 'got' on Tax Evasion charges, and spent the rest of his life in jail.

In the case of a nationwide Tax Protest, the IRS wouldn't need to have all of us jailed. All they would need to do would be to start jailing people and seizing their assets. When the IRS gave enough people 'the Treatment', the rest of the American People would fall in line and start paying again. I'm sorry to have to admit this, but the American People have precious little in the way of 'balls' anymore. And the Federal Government, upon seeing its 'money source' threatened, would give the IRS even more powers and authorities to do evil upon the citizens. Even if everyone in the USA managed to stand united against the IRS, the Federal Government would shut down most of its payments. There would be severe economic hardship, as millions of senior citizens and disabled people failed to get their SocSec checks, for instance. It would be an unmitigated economic disaster.

The only way to change things is to get another Constitutional Amendment repealing the Income Tax. But that is about as likely to happen as cheese is to sprout wings and fly. The most common way of Amending the Constitution requires congress to propose the Amendment, and enough of the State Legislatures to ratify it. Well, Congress is not likely to want to give up not only their main cash cow, but also their primary tool for 'social engineering'. And the State Governments all currently get Federal Funds as a large percentage of their budgets. I seriously doubt that many State Legislatures would vote to ratify an amendment repealing the Federal Income Tax. The states then would have to raise their own taxes to make up for the revenue shortfall, a move that would be very unpopular indeed with that state's voters.

So, is the Income Tax & the IRS legal? The US Federal courts say it is. Can anything be done about it? Not a dang thing.

Similarly, the Federal Reserve system in this country does not appear to pass Constitutional muster. However, the Federal Court system has time and time again ruled it constitutional and legal. You aren't going to be able to get anything done about that either. The Federal Reserve system allows the Government to create new money 'at will' so that Congress could spend it. Congress is not going to want to give that up.

So, the Federal Income Tax is not constitutional under the original Constitution, but the Constitution was amended to allow for it. The Federal Reserve system does not appear to be constitutional, but the Government doesn't care. You are not going to get anything done about either of these. Why waste your time worrying about them?

AC
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 22 Jan 05
Posts: 3413
Credit: 119,579
RAC: 0
United States
Message 604624 - Posted: 16 Jul 2007, 17:09:08 UTC - in response to Message 604580.
Last modified: 16 Jul 2007, 17:10:29 UTC

Not if everyone stands up.

Divided we get the shaft.

Is "Home of the brave" as false as, "Land of the free?"

Hmmmm, if everyone "stands up," and doesn't pay their taxes, how are you and Moore going to fund your precious "free" health care system?



That's a separate argument that doesn't address the constitutionality of income taxes. While there is no doubt that the government would lose the ability to pay for a lot of things if they didn't have the money from income taxes, it's not a right reason for the law (?) itself. When the Federal Government collects income taxes, it is infact seizing something that belongs to you. Something that you've earned. Otherwise the money that you earned and put in your bank/house isn't really yours. Think about it: You are actually being told by the goverment that you owe them money and must pay them or else you'll go to jail.



____________

Profile Jeffrey
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 21 Nov 03
Posts: 4793
Credit: 26,029
RAC: 0
Message 604632 - Posted: 16 Jul 2007, 17:34:19 UTC - in response to Message 604614.

the Federal Income Tax is not constitutional under the original Constitution, but the Constitution was amended to allow for it.

Yet another distortion of our founding fathers original vision... ;)
____________
It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . .

Profile Rush
Volunteer tester
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 3 Apr 99
Posts: 3133
Credit: 302,569
RAC: 0
United Kingdom
Message 604634 - Posted: 16 Jul 2007, 17:36:02 UTC - in response to Message 604624.

That's a separate argument that doesn't address the constitutionality of income taxes.

Which, of course, is why I wasn't addressing the constitutionality of income taxes. I was pointing out the glaring inconsistency.

While there is no doubt that the government would lose the ability to pay for a lot of things if they didn't have the money from income taxes, it's not a right reason for the law (?) itself.

I have no idea what the second half of this means. There is more to U.S. law than the Constitution, which in fact only regulates gov't conduct.

When the Federal Government collects income taxes, it is infact seizing something that belongs to you. Something that you've earned. Otherwise the money that you earned and put in your bank/house isn't really yours. Think about it: You are actually being told by the goverment that you owe them money and must pay them or else you'll go to jail.

Duh. That's the whole point. You can't advocate a "free," or "universal" health care system, and then crab about taxes. They're mutually exclusive.
____________
Cordially,
Rush

elrushbo2@theobviousgmail.com
Remove the obvious...

AC
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 22 Jan 05
Posts: 3413
Credit: 119,579
RAC: 0
United States
Message 604661 - Posted: 16 Jul 2007, 19:11:21 UTC - in response to Message 604634.
Last modified: 16 Jul 2007, 19:36:35 UTC

That's a separate argument that doesn't address the constitutionality of income taxes.

Which, of course, is why I wasn't addressing the constitutionality of income taxes. I was pointing out the glaring inconsistency.

While there is no doubt that the government would lose the ability to pay for a lot of things if they didn't have the money from income taxes, it's not a right reason for the law (?) itself.

I have no idea what the second half of this means. There is more to U.S. law than the Constitution, which in fact only regulates gov't conduct.

When the Federal Government collects income taxes, it is infact seizing something that belongs to you. Something that you've earned. Otherwise the money that you earned and put in your bank/house isn't really yours. Think about it: You are actually being told by the goverment that you owe them money and must pay them or else you'll go to jail.

Duh. That's the whole point. You can't advocate a "free," or "universal" health care system, and then crab about taxes. They're mutually exclusive.


First. In the second half of the sentence, I was referring to laws not being right according the Constitution. Specifically, under Article One, Section 9.

I disagree that the two issues, the constitutionality of income taxes, and a "free" or "universal" health care system, are mutually exclusive. Again, the two are separate issues. EDIT: However, I do understand how "universal" health care would benefit from income tax. Obviously.


____________

Profile Darth Dogbytes™
Volunteer tester
Send message
Joined: 30 Jul 03
Posts: 7512
Credit: 2,021,148
RAC: 0
United States
Message 604663 - Posted: 16 Jul 2007, 19:20:56 UTC - in response to Message 604614.
Last modified: 16 Jul 2007, 19:22:02 UTC

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!

Oh, this is getting good.....

heh heh heh....

The Federal Income Tax *is* expressly forbidden under the original US Constitution. Yes, there had to be an Amendment to the Constitution to explicitly authorize it. Down through the years, I have heard that there are questions as to whether or not that Amendment was actually and correctly ratified. But, you know what? It just doesn't matter. Down through the years since the Income Tax started, there have been many, many court challenges to its validity. Without exception, these cases have been decided in favor of the Income Tax. As far as the court system in the US is concerned, that Amendment is valid and the Income Tax is legal, and in this case thats the ONLY thing that matters.

The IRS is an evil organization, I will grant you that. If the IRS has a problem with what tax you have (or have not) paid, you don't get a trial in a regular court. It goes before 'Tax Court'. The Judge and all the Lawyers in Tax Court are IRS employees. There is no jury. You don't have very much in the way of rights of appeal to the regular judicial court system. To put it bluntly, you are screwed. The IRS has the power and authority to, at will, seize any and all of your assets, and to have you jailed for LONG periods of time. Remember, they didn't 'get' Al Capone on charges of him being a thief, murderer, mafia boss, or bootlegger. Al Capone was 'got' on Tax Evasion charges, and spent the rest of his life in jail.

In the case of a nationwide Tax Protest, the IRS wouldn't need to have all of us jailed. All they would need to do would be to start jailing people and seizing their assets. When the IRS gave enough people 'the Treatment', the rest of the American People would fall in line and start paying again. I'm sorry to have to admit this, but the American People have precious little in the way of 'balls' anymore. And the Federal Government, upon seeing its 'money source' threatened, would give the IRS even more powers and authorities to do evil upon the citizens. Even if everyone in the USA managed to stand united against the IRS, the Federal Government would shut down most of its payments. There would be severe economic hardship, as millions of senior citizens and disabled people failed to get their SocSec checks, for instance. It would be an unmitigated economic disaster.

The only way to change things is to get another Constitutional Amendment repealing the Income Tax. But that is about as likely to happen as cheese is to sprout wings and fly. The most common way of Amending the Constitution requires congress to propose the Amendment, and enough of the State Legislatures to ratify it. Well, Congress is not likely to want to give up not only their main cash cow, but also their primary tool for 'social engineering'. And the State Governments all currently get Federal Funds as a large percentage of their budgets. I seriously doubt that many State Legislatures would vote to ratify an amendment repealing the Federal Income Tax. The states then would have to raise their own taxes to make up for the revenue shortfall, a move that would be very unpopular indeed with that state's voters.

So, is the Income Tax & the IRS legal? The US Federal courts say it is. Can anything be done about it? Not a dang thing.

Similarly, the Federal Reserve system in this country does not appear to pass Constitutional muster. However, the Federal Court system has time and time again ruled it constitutional and legal. You aren't going to be able to get anything done about that either. The Federal Reserve system allows the Government to create new money 'at will' so that Congress could spend it. Congress is not going to want to give that up.

So, the Federal Income Tax is not constitutional under the original Constitution, but the Constitution was amended to allow for it. The Federal Reserve system does not appear to be constitutional, but the Government doesn't care. You are not going to get anything done about either of these. Why waste your time worrying about them?


I have heard all the arguements myself, and if I may say so, your writing is spot on and lucid; the simple distallation of the facts as they are in real life.
____________
Account frozen...

Profile Rush
Volunteer tester
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 3 Apr 99
Posts: 3133
Credit: 302,569
RAC: 0
United Kingdom
Message 604673 - Posted: 16 Jul 2007, 19:37:52 UTC - in response to Message 604661.

First. In the second half of the sentence, I was referring to laws not being right according the Constitution. Specifically, under Article One, Section 9.

I don't know what to tell you, U.S. law is also created in other ways beyond the Constitution, and the Constitution is subject to interpretation.

I disagree that the two issues, the constitutionality of income taxes, and a "free" or "universal" health care system, are mutually exclusive. Again, the two are separate issues.

They are separate issues, of course. However one cannot be consistent in supporting a program that could only be paid for by massive tax increases, and then advocate that taxes themselves are illegal and should not be paid. In that sense they are mutually exclusive because without the tax revenue, there could be no "free" health care.
____________
Cordially,
Rush

elrushbo2@theobviousgmail.com
Remove the obvious...

MrGray
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 17 Aug 05
Posts: 3177
Credit: 60,411
RAC: 0
United States
Message 604684 - Posted: 16 Jul 2007, 20:07:00 UTC

Compelling, KWSN - MajorKong,

But I believe you made a mistake. I'll work on prema facia evidence, as I'm sure you will. (Hope you will.)

:)




.
____________
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

Profile KWSN - MajorKong
Volunteer tester
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 5 Jan 00
Posts: 1627
Credit: 940,050
RAC: 178
United States
Message 604687 - Posted: 16 Jul 2007, 20:25:41 UTC - in response to Message 604684.

Compelling, KWSN - MajorKong,

But I believe you made a mistake. I'll work on prema facia evidence, as I'm sure you will. (Hope you will.)

:)



Please tell me, MrGray, what was my mistake? I am interested in hearing your evidence. If I turn out to be wrong, I will be among the first to admit it.

AC
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 22 Jan 05
Posts: 3413
Credit: 119,579
RAC: 0
United States
Message 604693 - Posted: 16 Jul 2007, 20:49:04 UTC - in response to Message 604673.
Last modified: 16 Jul 2007, 20:51:35 UTC


I don't know what to tell you, U.S. law is also created in other ways beyond the Constitution, and the Constitution is subject to interpretation.


Yes, but I would hope that any U.S. law is also constitutional as well. While some things in the Constitution could be considered somewhat more difficult to interpret than others, it is mostly very clearly worded. Especially when it comes to the limits that are placed on the power of Congress.


They are separate issues, of course. However one cannot be consistent in supporting a program that could only be paid for by massive tax increases, and then advocate that taxes themselves are illegal and should not be paid. In that sense they are mutually exclusive because without the tax revenue, there could be no "free" health care.


I suppose that the people who are making the case for "free" health care would probably invision the money to pay for it coming mostly from income tax revenue. But I personally don't think it would be the only way to achieve something very close to that. Without income taxes, it will be much easier for many more people to pay for their own health insurance because they'll end up with more money.



____________

MrGray
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 17 Aug 05
Posts: 3177
Credit: 60,411
RAC: 0
United States
Message 604700 - Posted: 16 Jul 2007, 20:56:46 UTC - in response to Message 604687.

Working on it.

:)




Compelling, KWSN - MajorKong,

But I believe you made a mistake. I'll work on prema facia evidence, as I'm sure you will. (Hope you will.)

:)



Please tell me, MrGray, what was my mistake? I am interested in hearing your evidence. If I turn out to be wrong, I will be among the first to admit it.


____________
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

MrGray
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 17 Aug 05
Posts: 3177
Credit: 60,411
RAC: 0
United States
Message 604706 - Posted: 16 Jul 2007, 21:05:16 UTC
Last modified: 16 Jul 2007, 21:13:27 UTC

All of my posts here are in the form of questions. I have never been political and am prone to make mistakes similar to those of younger persons. I have used catch phrases and promises of payment for proof against because I don't know for sure. I will debate with you but there are always two sides to every story. I may very well be wrong in much, if not all of what I post but can only learn by having people respond to my posts. I am not anti American. I am not a Communist sympathizer. I'm just looking for answers to my questions.

I don't want to fight with anyone for any reason, though I can be grumpy when attacked. I realize many people can't help me in this quest for knowledge and can't put down in writing what I'm looking for, but you must realize I am not an enemy. I love my country. Otherwise I wouldn't question things.




.
____________
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

1 · 2 · 3 · 4 . . . 5 · Next

Message boards : Politics : AMERICA: Income taxes ILLEGAL?

Copyright © 2014 University of California