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MrGray
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Message 603664 - Posted: 14 Jul 2007, 22:45:36 UTC
Last modified: 14 Jul 2007, 22:47:02 UTC

I will not post anything here, but for those willing to visit my site and find out about the processing of animals into food in our country:

http://www.exoticworldart.com/ufodbase/index.php?board=27.0

*NOT FOR THE SENSITIVE*
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Message 603723 - Posted: 14 Jul 2007, 23:51:56 UTC - in response to Message 603664.
Last modified: 14 Jul 2007, 23:52:19 UTC

http://www.exoticworldart.com/ufodbase/index.php?board=27.0

If you like Alec Baldwin then Meat Your Meat is a delightful romp through a factory processor.

The saddest part is that if these people actually cared about animals, they'd provide humanely treated and slaughtered meat themselves. Any number of people will pay a bit more for humane meat. Not double, but more

Since I don't have that choice, I just buy regular veal. Though there are starting to be some veal producers that have seen the light. More power to them.
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Message 603725 - Posted: 14 Jul 2007, 23:56:01 UTC

I agree,

Thank goodness more and more organic operations are opening up. But, I live in California where more people know what's up.

Beyond the hurendous treatment of animals in the proccess is the danger to the GP who chow down on it with eyes wide shut. Just like I did.
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Message 603799 - Posted: 15 Jul 2007, 2:43:24 UTC

For economic and health reasons, I've recently become a vegetarian convert...

Of course, if I had to live off the land, I would grow my own crops and hunt my own food and be quite happy doing so... ;)
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Message 603841 - Posted: 15 Jul 2007, 4:50:08 UTC - in response to Message 603725.

I agree,

Thank goodness more and more organic operations are opening up. But, I live in California where more people know what's up.

Beyond the hurendous treatment of animals in the proccess is the danger to the GP who chow down on it with eyes wide shut. Just like I did.


Once more an excellent subject, MrGray... a subject that a great many people in the USA need to have their eyes opened on.


It seems to be quite a shock when urbanites figure out exactly where their food (especially their meat) comes from. It is not a surprise to many of us that grew up in rural areas, for we grew up doing it. And I am talking about the more humane ways of turning a living animal into various cuts of meat.

As I said, I grew up knowing about the butchering process and even participated in it on a semi-regular basis. Shoot, even the local high school had classes (including hands-on laboratories) on the subject. But nothing... NOTHING... could have prepared me for the sight of the absolute horror that is a modern, corporate slaughterhouse the first (and only) time I took a tour of one. I am not easily disgusted (the literal meaning of the word), but that sight did it. As I recall, I was unable to eat anything for 2 or 3 days. To quote Kurtz from Joseph Conrad's 'Heart of Darkness' (and its screen adaptation 'Apocalypse Now!'): "The Horror! The Horror!"

Don't even bother watching any of the several films about it. It is nothing that you would ever want to see. It will haunt your dreams and nightmares for years. Just take my word for it, the treatment of animals in modern, corporate slaughterhouses is horrible and even evil beyond belief.

Another thing that is wrong with this system is the way the animals are treated prior to arrival at their 'doom', if you will. They are crowded into feedlots under filthy conditions. No wonder they have such trouble with disease. They also are fed things that they were not meant to eat. And the feed has all manner of drugs and hormones in it. And as for their transportation... The animals are crowded into truck trailers, and arrive at their destination not only totally stressed out but covered in fecal material. I am not a member of PETA nor any other 'animal rights' organization, but this treatment of animals is just wrong on so many levels.

All of this is why I do not eat meat from sources I do not trust if it can be avoided. I do not buy meat in the supermarket very often. I usually and by preference eat what I call 'homegrown beef'. My dad has a ranch. When I was a kid, he had several hundred head of cattle, but now he is down to just a few (he is, after all, 82, and can't take care of very many anymore). He usually 'fattens' up two or three of his calves per year. The calves, indeed all his cattle, are kept in clean, healthy surroundings, and are never crowded together. They eat mostly grass or hay (as the season dictates), and have their diets supplemented with a protein supplement made from alfalfa with just enough salt and other natural minerals to promote health (no bone meal in it, for instance). The calves that he fattens are also fed a type of sweet feed that is made from grain (usually mostly corn) with molasses as a sweetener -- no weird, unnatural additives.

When the calves are ready (usually only one at a time is), they are loaded into a trailer (the trailer has enough room for at least 8 to 10 head), and taken to a local butcher that my dad knows (and has known for a few decades), where the calf is treated humanely, is killed humanely, and is 'processed' in a clean, sanitary area. The meat is then cut to my dad's specifications and deep-frozen, and my dad picks it up when it is ready. I usually visit my dad several times a year, and when I need more 'homegrown' I haul some back home with me. This beef is of the highest taste and quality, is surprisingly lean, and its total cost per pound (including feed and processing) is way less than what a supermarket would charge you for meat of much lower quality.

So, it is possible to get meat that is much cheaper than the supermarket sells it, that is much healthier for you than what the supermarket sells, is much tastier and higher quality than what the supermarket sells, without using all the drugs, chemicals, and unnatural feeds that are used in what the supermarket sells, and where the animals involved were treated in a vastly more humane manner than those involved in supermarket meat. Why don't more Americans get their meat this way instead of at the supermarket? In my opinion, its a combination of ignorance and convenience. Most don't know any better, and many of those that do, consider it too inconvenient.

As far as 'organic' produce goes, be careful. Too many companies play fast and loose with the term. The best source of 'organic' produce is if you know (and trust) a farmer that uses these methods. Barring that, if one has the time and room, one can grow a lot oneself. The 'salad vegetables' for instance, are relatively easy to grow. Many others are not that hard to grow either. Purchasing organic (or indeed any) produce at a market should be one's last resort. You not only have to trust the market, but the market's distributors and so on back the chain to the grower. Remember, you don't really know where that supermarket spud has been, even IF it is labeled 'organic'. Furthermore, most all supermarket produce is picked green and 'ripens' in transit. If you have ever had real, fresh, picked when ripe, produce, there is no way you would ever be truly satisfied by the 's*** in the supermarket' again.

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Message 603850 - Posted: 15 Jul 2007, 5:19:25 UTC

Thank you for your insites, KWSN - MajorKong,

As far as 'organic' produce goes, be careful. Too many companies play fast and loose with the term. The best source of 'organic' produce is if you know (and trust) a farmer that uses these methods. Barring that, if one has the time and room, one can grow a lot oneself. The 'salad vegetables' for instance, are relatively easy to grow. Many others are not that hard to grow either. Purchasing organic (or indeed any) produce at a market should be one's last resort. You not only have to trust the market, but the market's distributors and so on back the chain to the grower. Remember, you don't really know where that supermarket spud has been, even IF it is labeled 'organic'.


Absolutely correct!


I recently helped my friend process a pig. It was hard but I knew I had to do it once to know how. Wilbur was a good pig. Almost 300 pounds but lean. Taste was unlike any pork I'd ever had. I also had my first non homogenized milk that week which was unlike any processed milk you'll find. The country life if definitely for me. I'm with you on this Jefferey and KWSN - MajorKong.

The movies linked are absolutely a vision from Dante's Inferno. I posted them to wake up as many people as I could. I truly hope you all will get the picture without watching the videos. It makes Soylent Green look like a love story...




.
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Message 603930 - Posted: 15 Jul 2007, 10:40:09 UTC
Last modified: 15 Jul 2007, 10:41:53 UTC

Having worked as a temporary worker quite often I also had the opportunity to work for a company which repaired everything in stables. When I entered a cow stable the first time working there, I was badly surprised. It was total different from the cattle stable I saw as a child in the village where I grew up.
Here they had really little place per animal; the cattle slept on rubber covered concrete instead of hay; they almost never were driven outside - and the workers (I deny to call them farmers) touched the cows as seldom as possible, almost only when attaching them to the milking machine. Totally in opposite to the farms I remembered as a child.
Similar were all the other animal stables I visited while working for that company...
Everything changed into heartless, efficient "meat and milk production", no real farming anymore. They don't ask what's best for the animals: they ask what's best for their wallet.
It took me a couple days to be able to eat meat again after I started to work there - but then I saw that even crop are treated in industrial measure: I saw then that either I would become poor buying crop and meat from traditional farmers or I would starve. So I got used to this "farming industry". Sadly but true.
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Message 604047 - Posted: 15 Jul 2007, 15:40:01 UTC - in response to Message 603930.
Last modified: 15 Jul 2007, 15:40:20 UTC

Everything changed into heartless, efficient "meat and milk production", no real farming anymore.

Welcome to 'big business'... ;)
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Message 604278 - Posted: 15 Jul 2007, 23:09:00 UTC

Thanks thorin and Jeffrey!
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Message 604326 - Posted: 16 Jul 2007, 1:06:52 UTC

MrGray, I saw that movie about cattle slaughter on your website and it was very disturbing.

I wonder, that movie is that from a ritual slaughter house?

Here cattle are not slaughtered without being shot in the head first, stunned, but there are some ritual slaughter methods like halal and schächting.

I found this site about ritual slaugter

Recommended Ritual Slaughter Practices


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Message 604339 - Posted: 16 Jul 2007, 1:43:50 UTC

No rituals about these vids, although that is an interesting interpretation I'll have to chew on. (No pun intended.) Just corporate America squeezing pennies out of the equation.

I don't know if I can bear to watch another movie like those but will try for you and report soon.

Thanks Fuzzy Noodle
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Message 604370 - Posted: 16 Jul 2007, 3:01:47 UTC - in response to Message 604339.

No rituals about these vids, although that is an interesting interpretation I'll have to chew on. (No pun intended.) Just corporate America squeezing pennies out of the equation.

I don't know if I can bear to watch another movie like those but will try for you and report soon.

Thanks Fuzzy Noodle


You don't have to. It's disturbing enough that those slaughter houses exists, where they don't shoot the animals before slaughter. I won't comment at all about the ritual slaughters, except I don't buy meat from a halal slaughter here, even they say the meat is better and cheaper.

I eat meat, but I prefer that the animal has been killed in "humane" ways, mostly shot with a bolt pistol in the head before slaughtering. Hunters don't always kill their game in first shot, but usually they are shot and die very soon after.

Here chicken are being killed with electricity before slaughtered. I try to buy meat where I know how the animal has been killed.

But I am horrified by that attitude people seem to have to animals, here there are cases in the press where animals are being transported 500 - 1000 kilometers for being slaughtered, because it's cheaper than slaughter them here at local slaughter houses. They are being transported without any rest, water, or food, and lots of them have already died when they arrive. That is a scandal!


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Message 604383 - Posted: 16 Jul 2007, 3:47:29 UTC - in response to Message 604370.

I'm a tree hugging animal lover,

I'm trying to go vegan but it's hard breaking old habits and facilitating the life style when I visit non vegan friends so much. I'll get there soon.

Chickens have it bad here in America. I have a hard time with this having had many friends/pets being birds. All animals are intelligent. Our DNA's show the truth of our extended family here on our little blue marble; Earth.

It pains me.

No rituals about these vids, although that is an interesting interpretation I'll have to chew on. (No pun intended.) Just corporate America squeezing pennies out of the equation.

I don't know if I can bear to watch another movie like those but will try for you and report soon.

Thanks Fuzzy Noodle


You don't have to. It's disturbing enough that those slaughter houses exists, where they don't shoot the animals before slaughter. I won't comment at all about the ritual slaughters, except I don't buy meat from a halal slaughter here, even they say the meat is better and cheaper.

I eat meat, but I prefer that the animal has been killed in "humane" ways, mostly shot with a bolt pistol in the head before slaughtering. Hunters don't always kill their game in first shot, but usually they are shot and die very soon after.

Here chicken are being killed with electricity before slaughtered. I try to buy meat where I know how the animal has been killed.

But I am horrified by that attitude people seem to have to animals, here there are cases in the press where animals are being transported 500 - 1000 kilometers for being slaughtered, because it's cheaper than slaughter them here at local slaughter houses. They are being transported without any rest, water, or food, and lots of them have already died when they arrive. That is a scandal!



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Message 604407 - Posted: 16 Jul 2007, 5:56:46 UTC - in response to Message 604370.

No rituals about these vids, although that is an interesting interpretation I'll have to chew on. (No pun intended.) Just corporate America squeezing pennies out of the equation.

I don't know if I can bear to watch another movie like those but will try for you and report soon.

Thanks Fuzzy Noodle


You don't have to. It's disturbing enough that those slaughter houses exists, where they don't shoot the animals before slaughter. I won't comment at all about the ritual slaughters, except I don't buy meat from a halal slaughter here, even they say the meat is better and cheaper.

I eat meat, but I prefer that the animal has been killed in "humane" ways, mostly shot with a bolt pistol in the head before slaughtering. Hunters don't always kill their game in first shot, but usually they are shot and die very soon after.

Here chicken are being killed with electricity before slaughtered. I try to buy meat where I know how the animal has been killed.

But I am horrified by that attitude people seem to have to animals, here there are cases in the press where animals are being transported 500 - 1000 kilometers for being slaughtered, because it's cheaper than slaughter them here at local slaughter houses. They are being transported without any rest, water, or food, and lots of them have already died when they arrive. That is a scandal!



Not to get too graphic, but corporate slaughterhouses do use something like a gun to supposedly kill the cattle before the rest of the process starts. However, it doesn't always work, and only stuns the animal or knocks it out. It ain't pretty when the animal 'comes to'. But this is the least of the issues I have with modern, corporate slaughterhouses. I have many others, both before the animal gets to the 'death device', and after.

Oh, and the chicken-shocker thing doesn't always work either, with similar results.

And with hunting, it is a BAD thing if you don't drop the game with the first shot, but only wound it. If only wounded, the animals quite often don't die 'very soon afterwards', but manage to stagger off and hide before the hunter can get close enough for a coup de grace shot. If badly wounded, they can, quite often, linger for hours in pain and misery before they finally die. In cases where the wound is not severe enough to lead (eventually) to death, and the animal survives, it still is in pain, and must deal with things like infection and the possibility of being permanently crippled. If you are going to hunt, don't take marginal shots, and for goodness sakes use a high-powered rifle. I don't hunt much anymore; at my age in life I much prefer fishing. It is much easier on the old body of mine. But in either case, hunting and fishing, I don't do it for sport. I eat what I kill when hunting, and as long as it is not mandated that I release the fish due to legal size limitations, I eat what I catch when fishing as long as it is of an edible species. The fish that that are of an illegal size to keep, and those of species considered inedible, I promptly release.

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Message 604419 - Posted: 16 Jul 2007, 6:31:43 UTC - in response to Message 604383.
Last modified: 16 Jul 2007, 6:36:15 UTC

I'm a tree hugging animal lover,

I'm trying to go vegan but it's hard breaking old habits and facilitating the life style when I visit non vegan friends so much. I'll get there soon.

Chickens have it bad here in America. I have a hard time with this having had many friends/pets being birds. All animals are intelligent. Our DNA's show the truth of our extended family here on our little blue marble; Earth.

It pains me.



I applaud your (and Jeffrey's) stated desire to avoid eating animal products. In my opinion, the average American eats way too much meat.

That said, I must caution you about totally eliminating animal products from your diet. As far as I know, there is only one plant-based source of protein that is 'complete'. And it is a Genetically Modified variety of Black Bean.

Our bodies can manufacture most of the amino acids from other amino acids. However, there are 4 amino acids (if I remember correctly) that we cannot manufacture. Also important are the ratios of the relative abundance of the various amino acids in our diets. To make the average human tissue, we require that the amino acids in our diets to be at least close to certain ratio values. If we run out of one (or more) amino acids during protein synthesis in our bodies, it tends to waste good portions of the others.

Animal proteins are complete and are somewhat close to the correct ratios already. As I stated previously, the only single plant-based protein source (that I have heard about) that is complete and anywhere near being balanced is that one GM variety of black bean. There may be others now, but I will almost guarantee you that they will be GM as well. With plants and protein completeness, many plants with appreciable amounts of protein might have one or two of the 'essential 4' amino acids, but lack the others. Eating plant-derived protein only will require you to juggle various sources to make sure that all the essential amino acids are present, and that the protein consumed is at least near the ratio values that it should be.

I would strongly advise you to not go totally vegan, but to supplement your mostly vegan diet with somewhat reduced numbers of servings of healthy animal-based protein sources, at least 2 or 3 servings a week, perhaps as many as 1 serving a day (depending on your age, fitness level, and activity level). However, if you wish to go totally vegan, you must take stock of what vegetable foods are available at what times of the year in your area. Then, spend a little money and go find a registered dietitian/nutritionist to help you design a diet that will provide complete proteins in the proper ratios, and also take care of all your other nutritional needs. Avoid mass market 'self-help' books. Not all of them are on the level, and those that are might require something in your diet that might not be available for much of the year in your area. Its much better to trust a duly educated and licensed professional in your area.

One thing that I *will* guarantee about being vegan is that, sooner or later, your diet will become somewhat boring. I know. I tried this out for myself about 27 years ago. It lasted about 6 months before I went crazy and raided the local Burger King. But, even today, I don't consume near as much animal products as the average American. But, dangit! I still like the occasional burger or steak.

Whatever you decide to do, I wish you the best of success at it.

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Message 604434 - Posted: 16 Jul 2007, 7:48:09 UTC
Last modified: 16 Jul 2007, 7:48:22 UTC

I think many beans and legumes will cover the aminos,

I switched to soy milk and lost 10 pounds over the last few weeks. Down to 290 now, which is average for a 6'3" polynesian. lol

Thanks for the tips. I will certainly keep them in mind before jumping off the animal cracker boat express!




.
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Message 604446 - Posted: 16 Jul 2007, 8:36:33 UTC
Last modified: 16 Jul 2007, 8:41:09 UTC

even though I do buy cheap, I always try to buy no GM products. I think all genetically modified seed should be eliminated immediately instead of been sowed.
Here in Germany they even arrested farmers who posted warning shields around some test fields: "Caution! Crop can be contaminated with Genetically modified crop!" Is money worth more than the health of us people?

I think they shouldn't modify the DNA of food. IMHO it's just wrong and dangerous. At least they should have had official test fields absolutely not able to contaminate other fields, and they should have made an official long-term research whether or not changing of the crop DNA has any effects on animals and us humans.
As long as this is not done: Remove all GM crap!
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Message 604547 - Posted: 16 Jul 2007, 13:28:50 UTC - in response to Message 604434.

I think many beans and legumes will cover the aminos,

I switched to soy milk and lost 10 pounds over the last few weeks. Down to 290 now, which is average for a 6'3" polynesian. lol

Thanks for the tips. I will certainly keep them in mind before jumping off the animal cracker boat express!

.


If you chose to go vegan be sure to get B12 vitamin supply. It can be gotten as tablets, and I knew a vegan once who told me that he spray it on his food, so apparently it can be bought as a spray also.

Me, myself, I would literally die if I went vegan, I suffer from Pernicious Anemia, so I get my cobalamin (B12 vitamine) as shots every 6'th week. And I still need to eat animal products to keep my levels up, also my folic acid levels need to be monitored.

So be sure to get your need for B12 vitamin covered some way or the other. You can get permanent damages in your neurological system if you are not careful. It's a very insidious condition. I have permanent damages in my neurological system for not being diagnosed early enough to avoid them.



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Message 605813 - Posted: 19 Jul 2007, 8:34:13 UTC - in response to Message 604419.
Last modified: 19 Jul 2007, 8:39:51 UTC

I'm a tree hugging animal lover,

I'm trying to go vegan but it's hard breaking old habits and facilitating the life style when I visit non vegan friends so much. I'll get there soon.

Chickens have it bad here in America. I have a hard time with this having had many friends/pets being birds. All animals are intelligent. Our DNA's show the truth of our extended family here on our little blue marble; Earth.

It pains me.



I applaud your (and Jeffrey's) stated desire to avoid eating animal products. In my opinion, the average American eats way too much meat.

That said, I must caution you about totally eliminating animal products from your diet. As far as I know, there is only one plant-based source of protein that is 'complete'. And it is a Genetically Modified variety of Black Bean.

Our bodies can manufacture most of the amino acids from other amino acids. However, there are 4 amino acids (if I remember correctly) that we cannot manufacture. Also important are the ratios of the relative abundance of the various amino acids in our diets. To make the average human tissue, we require that the amino acids in our diets to be at least close to certain ratio values. If we run out of one (or more) amino acids during protein synthesis in our bodies, it tends to waste good portions of the others.

Animal proteins are complete and are somewhat close to the correct ratios already. As I stated previously, the only single plant-based protein source (that I have heard about) that is complete and anywhere near being balanced is that one GM variety of black bean. There may be others now, but I will almost guarantee you that they will be GM as well. With plants and protein completeness, many plants with appreciable amounts of protein might have one or two of the 'essential 4' amino acids, but lack the others. Eating plant-derived protein only will require you to juggle various sources to make sure that all the essential amino acids are present, and that the protein consumed is at least near the ratio values that it should be.

I would strongly advise you to not go totally vegan, but to supplement your mostly vegan diet with somewhat reduced numbers of servings of healthy animal-based protein sources, at least 2 or 3 servings a week, perhaps as many as 1 serving a day (depending on your age, fitness level, and activity level). However, if you wish to go totally vegan, you must take stock of what vegetable foods are available at what times of the year in your area. Then, spend a little money and go find a registered dietitian/nutritionist to help you design a diet that will provide complete proteins in the proper ratios, and also take care of all your other nutritional needs. Avoid mass market 'self-help' books. Not all of them are on the level, and those that are might require something in your diet that might not be available for much of the year in your area. Its much better to trust a duly educated and licensed professional in your area.

One thing that I *will* guarantee about being vegan is that, sooner or later, your diet will become somewhat boring. I know. I tried this out for myself about 27 years ago. It lasted about 6 months before I went crazy and raided the local Burger King. But, even today, I don't consume near as much animal products as the average American. But, dangit! I still like the occasional burger or steak.

Whatever you decide to do, I wish you the best of success at it.


Soy products are also a complete protein. Soy supplements that can be purchased at health food stores and through body building magazines are also fairly close to the amino acid percentages in human tissue. There are 10 essential amino acids for humans (some may argue 9). Remember that the Chinese lived on little more than rice for many years. Things like rice and cereal grains can be catalyzed with milk or yogurt to fill in the missing amino acids.

These are important -the body makes 1500 different proteins from these building blocks. The danger that I see in being a vegan is that you can easily become hungry and eat a lot of sweets, cookies, cakes and too much fruit and juice --losing muscle and gaining fat. I would recommend 90 grams of complete protein a day for the average, active young man. Smaller females can get by on 60 grams if they are not in athletic training. Many vegans eat fish, milk and eggs; these will fill-in nicely for a diet that is otherwise deficient in complete protein.

Also, if my reading on the subject is correct, we also share a high percentage of DNA (maybe 40 % or more) of many plants and weeds--now that really blows my mind. I tell myself that chickens and cows are engineered animals that would not exist in their current forms were they not grown for food.

Hope this helps

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Message 605816 - Posted: 19 Jul 2007, 8:56:34 UTC

Thanks Guys!
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