I've read every post in this thread.

I have NOT read 98% (or more)of what is posted to the cafe'. In fact in the last week I've only read and posted twice to the LPTP wins thread.

I know there have been issues leading to the implementation of the automods (not sure if that's still how it's done).

IMO there's little benefit for the University and Seti to even have a "cafe" to begin with. Even if everyone got along in perfect harmony. Add in the discord, arguments, flames, and even the mere existence of thread related to mod policy and I don't see any reason for it to continue. There's plenty of messageboards around for BSing.

It would be easy for mods to delete/move threads/post in the Science and NC boards, as they could simply say the post/thread "off topic" and move on. Having threads that can be about anything leads to topics which are had to classify as "off topic", and mods are forced to use the other rules which IMO might be inferred as "personal"(rude, flaming, etc). "off topic" is not personal and then might not spur as many "questionable" decisions on the parts of the mods, or more, users would find it harder to argue with the mods decisions. Anyway, it'd be easier to control the hoard on those boards.

2c inserted.

[edit] Tony's definition of "hoard" is....Seti users as a whole[/edit]

Tony's advice to admin.....Place cursor over the "cafe" thread, right click, select "delete", and the problem is GONE (or however it's done in linux, the point is I think it would require little effort to make it go away.)

I've read every post in this thread.

I have NOT read 98% (or more)of what is posted to the cafe'. In fact in the last week I've only read and posted twice to the LPTP wins thread.

I know there have been issues leading to the implementation of the automods (not sure if that's still how it's done).

IMO there's little benefit for the University and Seti to even have a "cafe" to begin with. Even if everyone got along in perfect harmony. Add in the discord, arguments, flames, and even the mere existence of thread related to mod policy and I don't see any reason for it to continue. There's plenty of messageboards around for BSing.

It would be easy for mods to delete/move threads/post in the Science and NC boards, as they could simply say the post/thread "off topic" and move on. Having threads that can be about anything leads to topics which are had to classify as "off topic", and mods are forced to use the other rules which IMO might be inferred as "personal"(rude, flaming, etc). "off topic" is not personal and then might not spur as many "questionable" decisions on the parts of the mods, or more, users would find it harder to argue with the mods decisions. Anyway, it'd be easier to control the hoard on those boards.

2c inserted.

[edit] Tony's definition of "hoard" is....Seti users as a whole[/edit]

Tony's advice to admin.....Place cursor over the "cafe" thread, right click, select "delete", and the problem is GONE (or however it's done in linux, the point is I think it would require little effort to make it go away.)

If so many people are getting so upset about it then maybe the admin should. It would be a shame...but perhaps that is why these new forums have been created. To save what is best about the cafe..which in my humble opinion is the lively political debate. Then they can safely remove the cafe.

I would simply suggest that they make room for the religious thread here too..I am sure the politicians would not mind sharing. After all...politics and religion are very intertwined anyway. Perhaps the cafe could be replaced with a chat room? Less to moderate and all flame wars would drift very quickly into obscurity.

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Then they can safely remove the cafe.

Well said Mystique, some good observations, including this one I have quoted.

Many months ago, around November of last year, I can't remember exactly when - just before Cafe@Home was created, Eric Korpela made a clear statement that he was prepared to close the Cafe, if behavior did not improve. Shortly after I formed my own opinion that this is what he intended, no matter what. His ear was bent by Berkeley to get it sorted, he couldn't - didn't have the skills - so he took on moderators that would take the cafe down (automods - any old person would do). No one could blame him because the moderators, with their fat heads expanding with the status of being a SETI moderator, would cause resentment and unrest, leading to the Cafe being deleted. Or 'safely removed' as you nicely put it Mystique.

That was my opinion then and still remains so now.

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I would simply suggest that they make room for the religious thread here too..

You won't get any arguments from me... ;)

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It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . .

In short, if everyone worked with the moderators, together we could make this a much better, more fun community.

Have you not seen us try to work with moderators? We've tried, only to be confronted with mods sticking up for each other. Moderators are not bad, but the actions of a few give mods a bad name.

I cannot complain to the moderators about other moderators because of a perceived "Good old boys club". The only way you can get attention to your plight is by going nuts.

Probably what happened to M****y.

Yes, going nuts about a perceived problem is a good way to get banned. Politely taking your request to the SETI Mods email list will get it discussed. But it will not always get the action changed.

Has everyone that emailed a request gotten an answer, or have some been left hanging in limbo? Would it help if there were always an answer after consideration? Note that consideration can take quite a while as it is all by email.

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BOINC WIKI

I would simply suggest that they make room for the religious thread here too..

You won't get any arguments from me... ;)

If you want the thread moved and you are the originator, Red X the opening post and give a clear explanation of why you want it moved, or email the seti mods email list. I can't guarantee that it will be moved, but it will at least be discussed.

This holds for any thread opener. Please try to be reasonable in your requests in that the threads make sense in their new proposed homes.

Also, if a preponderance of the posters in a thread wish a move, that will be considered as well - even if the thread opener does not make the request.

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BOINC WIKI

I haven't bothered trying to take my complaint to the setimod list since I can best describe as being set on by a pack of dogs. They weren't interested in listening to my complaint. Only in imposing mob rule on me.

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The moderators also reserve the right to delete any posts by Es99 with extreme prejudice.

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Reality Internet Personality

In short, if everyone worked with the moderators, together we could make this a much better, more fun community.

Have you not seen us try to work with moderators? We've tried, only to be confronted with mods sticking up for each other. Moderators are not bad, but the actions of a few give mods a bad name.

I cannot complain to the moderators about other moderators because of a perceived "Good old boys club". The only way you can get attention to your plight is by going nuts.

Probably what happened to M****y.

Yes, going nuts about a perceived problem is a good way to get banned. Politely taking your request to the SETI Mods email list will get it discussed. But it will not always get the action changed.

Has everyone that emailed a request gotten an answer, or have some been left hanging in limbo? Would it help if there were always an answer after consideration? Note that consideration can take quite a while as it is all by email.

Well, I made some complaints, for example. I even used the red X on inappropriate posts. And you (and even the ex mods among the participants in this thread) may remember that I responded to almost all of the forum moderation notices sent to me; mostly agreeing, sometimes asking if I could re-post something without the moderated quotation (when I was moderated because of quoting stuff later deleted), sometimes even questioning decisions. Fine with me. But I expected more replies to my responds than I actually got...

Back to the recent incidents: Strangely at least some mods knew exactly whom I meant when I critized someone's bad behavior without naming names. I got my punishment for that, fine with me. I didn't get angry about it (would have reacted likewise), but I expected that these persons were made to stop it.

Neither in this paragraph nor in the posts involved I didn't mention any behavior of mods. It was read into the message. Correctly.

Sure I wish there were any reaction when having written any request. But I do know that sometimes it takes some time because of the work and because of discussions going on...

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Account frozen...

The moderators also reserve the right to delete any posts by Es99 with extreme prejudice.

Any post, by any poster can be deleted for violating rules. But any poster can bring their complaint to the modlist.

OK, one final comment before I have to disappear for the day. We have over 20 appointed Moderators, I don't know how many are actually active at any one time, but here is a thought that maybe might work.

Without naming any names, it seems to me that it might be useful if some Moderators were assigned to certain boards, rather than all of them having a roving brief around every one. In any community there will always be personality clashes, and have been since the dawn of time. It shouldn't be too difficult to decide which people would be best placed where, to avoid that sort of thing.

This sort of does happen, mostly by happenstance. Most of the moderation action occurs in the Cafe (and now Politics) as these are where most of the problems occur. One or two Moderators specialize in the Science boards as that is what interests them. A couple of moderators take care of the help desk. There is a rather large overlap in the Cafe. Most of the moderators tend to act where they read and post.

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BOINC WIKI

OK, one final comment before I have to disappear for the day. We have over 20 appointed Moderators, I don't know how many are actually active at any one time, but here is a thought that maybe might work.

Without naming any names, it seems to me that it might be useful if some Moderators were assigned to certain boards, rather than all of them having a roving brief around every one. In any community there will always be personality clashes, and have been since the dawn of time. It shouldn't be too difficult to decide which people would be best placed where, to avoid that sort of thing.

Automods was an experiment at least worth trying even if it didn't quite produce what was hoped, and so might this be. I would not like to see the Cafe be closed without at least trying a few changes first.

I agree. I actually like the fun stuff in the Cafe and would be sad if it vanished. When I visit the other boards like NC or so I'm only reading there. The Cafe - and even the new Political forum here are places for me to relax.

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Account frozen...

So I ask it without the incriminated quote again:

How can we discuss this if any example is asap deleted? This makes the discussion quite futile.

(And how can we be expected to know the rules if even the mods don't seem to know them, if I deduct this correctly from the deleted messages of some mods?)

So I ask it without the incriminated quote again:

How can we discuss this if any example is asap deleted? This makes the discussion quite futile.

(And how can we be expected to know the rules if even the mods don't seem to know them, if I deduct this correctly from the deleted messages of some mods?)

This thread is going to be borderline pretty much througout. Exactly where the edge is can be a bit blurry at times, and moderators do disagree and discuss. There are things that are clearly off limits, and there there things that are clearly OK. Then there are posts that are borderline, and these always seem to require some discussion among the moderators. So in answer to your question, you can't always know before you post as it sometimes takes awhile to come to a consensus among the moderators whether a post is allowed or not.

Most of the moderator posts that were deleted were in response to posts that were later deleted.

[edit]

In response to your first question, examples should not be identifiable as a specific action that has already been taken.

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BOINC WIKI

The question is still not answered:

How can we discuss this if any example is asap deleted?

Are we expected to make some general blahblah without links to reality, politician like, lot's of words without base?

It's the concrete examples that are the interesting things. We will probably agree on some fluffy general statements, that is all that is allowed here, but that won't change anything.

Thorin

While being new and watching what is coming and going in the setimod mailing list and this Forum Thread... I see one thing that you have pointed that might help improve things.
As I can catch Eric will make a recommendation.

In the mean time people are busy attempting to keep some kind of order.

Pappa

Well, I made some complaints, for example. I even used the red X on inappropriate posts. And you (and even the ex mods among the participants in this thread) may remember that I responded to almost all of the forum moderation notices sent to me; mostly agreeing, sometimes asking if I could re-post something without the moderated quotation (when I was moderated because of quoting stuff later deleted), sometimes even questioning decisions. Fine with me. But I expected more replies to my responds than I actually got...

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Please consider a Donation to the Seti Project.

Oops

Sorry, there is a lot of live discussion happening in the Cafe... The rules are the rules... It is that simple.

You have stopped free discussion in the Cafe. This moderation policy is wrong, it's unacceptable and it's crap!

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Please consider a Donation to the Seti Project.

This thread is going to be borderline pretty much througout. Exactly where the edge is can be a bit blurry at times, and moderators do disagree and discuss. There are things that are clearly off limits, and there there things that are clearly OK. Then there are posts that are borderline, and these always seem to require some discussion among the moderators....

Yes...I think I have the new rules..if a post is borderline moderators may discuss it..unless that post is by me, in which case it is deleted even if another poster has said something far stronger and more specific earlier.

If a post by me is also polite and relevant...but cannot be thought of as borderline, then the mods can also delete it as off topic.

If there is a straight forward post or thread by me, the moderators can also make up a conspiracy about it and then use that as an excuse to delete it and threaten bannings.

Have I got it right so far?

I feel so special.

Once a post has been deleted...it then falls under the remit of 'discussing moderation' and can no longer be treated as if it even existed. Discussion of said post can lead to further deletions and threats of bannings.

In other words...once the mods have acted there is very little you can do or say about it. Even if they have had to make up reasons to moderate your posts or threads because they don't like you.

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Reality Internet Personality

Thorin

While being new and watching what is coming and going in the setimod mailing list and this Forum Thread... I see one thing that you have pointed that might help improve things.
As I can catch Eric will make a recommendation.

In the mean time people are busy attempting to keep some kind of order.

Pappa

Well, I made some complaints, for example. I even used the red X on inappropriate posts. And you (and even the ex mods among the participants in this thread) may remember that I responded to almost all of the forum moderation notices sent to me; mostly agreeing, sometimes asking if I could re-post something without the moderated quotation (when I was moderated because of quoting stuff later deleted), sometimes even questioning decisions. Fine with me. But I expected more replies to my responds than I actually got...

I would like to see certain mods stop using the mod list as a propaganda tool.

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Reality Internet Personality

Thorin

While being new and watching what is coming and going in the setimod mailing list and this Forum Thread... I see one thing that you have pointed that might help improve things.
As I can catch Eric will make a recommendation.

In the mean time people are busy attempting to keep some kind of order.

Pappa

Well, I made some complaints, for example. I even used the red X on inappropriate posts. And you (and even the ex mods among the participants in this thread) may remember that I responded to almost all of the forum moderation notices sent to me; mostly agreeing, sometimes asking if I could re-post something without the moderated quotation (when I was moderated because of quoting stuff later deleted), sometimes even questioning decisions. Fine with me. But I expected more replies to my responds than I actually got...

I would like to see certain mods stop using the mod list as a propaganda tool.

I would like to see this thread not used as a propaganda tool. Moderators are selectively hiding posts they want to censor, leaving others out of kilter and discussion fractured due to the censorship.

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flaming balloons