The people who came up with the idea for depleted uranium as a strong substance for weaponry were right about that part. Too bad they didn't take into account the potential after-effects.

They did. They realized it was ideal for penetrating armoured vehicles. See, that was their job.

They also realized that it was far far far less dangerous than bleach or even ammonia, and the chlorine gas that can be emitted when you mix them. Two household items that can kill you almost instantly. Think Clorox and Mr. Clean worry about how many people die with a general household chemical?

Only they wern't exactly interested in the saftey of the people that would come in contact with it. Also, a*shole lobbyists just realized a way to get rid of all that uranium waste that was laying around. People may or may not die from general household chemicals but we're talking about the dangers of depleted uranium. That doesn't justify anything, or mean the dangers from depleted uranium shouldn't be taken seriously.

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Depleted Uranium is just that depleted and slowly on its' transuranic journey into Thorium, and then to Lead. However, one point is being sadly overlooked...i.e., it is a heavy metal which even in the smallest amounts is quite toxic if it makes its' way into a human body by any route. When a shell penetrates armour, a small amount is vaporized into the surrounding environment. There is really no safe level of exposure for the environment on the receiving end.

In other words, it is poisonous. Tungstan Carbide would be OK, but it just doesn't have the same weight to mass ratio as U238 du.

Well said by the way.

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More official evidence:

Depleted Uranium (DU) Munitions

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Think Clorox and Mr. Clean worry about how many people die with a general household chemical?

Anybody remember the little green 'MR YUCK' stickers? ;)

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It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . .

Think Clorox and Mr. Clean worry about how many people die with a general household chemical?

Anybody remember the little green 'MR YUCK' stickers? ;)

I can't say that I do..... but it might come back to me.

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Mr Yuk ;)

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It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . .

Mr Yuk ;)

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Account frozen...

Yes I'm aware of some of the other potentially dangerous substances used by the military. The exhaust fumes from the fuel of the M1 for example have been known to cause severe headaches, nausea, and breathing problems for some soldiers.

Really? That's almost shocking, because that exact effect can happen when inhaling the exhaust fumes from a Toyota Prius. Those have been known to cause severe headaches, nausea, breathing problems and sometimes death for some people. And you can find those in civilian garages.

It's no real surprise that exhaust fumes, especially from a tank using JP-8 (4?) would do the same thing. Why? Because exhaust fumes are poisonous. Oh, and get this, the fumes from a Prius will kill you orders of magnitudes faster than handing DU will--those gases are far more deadly. And yet those things are still on the market.

But the fact that the military uses these substances doesn't justify the use of depleted uranium. The dangers that it poses to military personel and civilians are reasons enough that the advantages it has as an armour killer aren't worth it.

Did you have anything more than your opinion here? Maybe an argument? All you've said here is that it isn't worth it to YOU. It was certainly worth it to the gov't/military, they tested DU rounds, they liked them because of their effectiveness, and therefore ordered the production of thousands of them at a cost of millions of dollars because, as noted earlier, they are "ideal" for destroying other armored vehicles.

The "dangers that it poses to military personel and civilians" (sic) are LESS than any number of significantly more dangerous household chemicals and civilian vehicle exhaust fumes, so they use it. The manufacturers of bleach and ammonia expect that you won't ingest it or make chlorine gas with it, and the military expects that you will not ingest DU dust, gasoline, oil, or propellant. Well, except for the poor souls in the other vehicle--they won't live long enough to ingest DU dust, because they will have been ripped to shreds by DU and shrapnel, and then blowed up good by flaming gasoline, oil, and their own rounds.

By the way, that's really dangerous too.

No "SOP" isn't always followed as often as it should be in the military.

Nope.

But I wouldn't say that it's gotten to a point where no one pays attention to it anymore.

Really? How would you know? How could you possibly have any idea what units pay attention to what SOPs and to what extent? There are literally THOUSANDS of SOPs, of different relevance and importance to different units, that accord or dismiss them as they see fit. What information could you have used to decide which and whether particular units pay attention to a particular SOPs or not?

I can tell you from first hand experience that my unit (any many others) ignored LOTS of SOPs for the reasons I gave you previously. Often, even if you knew one existed for a given situation, that doesn't mean you even had it, let alone followed it.

I provided the link as official evidence that depleted uranium is indeed considered to be dangerous by the military.

Yeah, duh. Just like they consider POL spills to be dangerous. Again: I didn't say the stuff wasn't dangerous, I DU pales in comparison to the actual deadly poisons in a tank. I said it pales in comparison to being in a tank when some DU passes through one side and then out the other at ungodly speeds. I said that simple iron pills poison more people than DU ever has.

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Cordially,
Rush

elrushbo2@theobviousgmail.com
Remove the obvious...

Only they wern't exactly interested in the saftey of the people that would come in contact with it.

No, of course not. Of course "they" weren't. They gave little thought to the people that would handle it (soldiers) because it's safe to handle and it's safe as armour plating.

Also, a*shole lobbyists just realized a way to get rid of all that uranium waste that was laying around.

Maybe. That's just good business, recycling waste to make effective new products.

People may or may not die from general household chemicals but we're talking about the dangers of depleted uranium. That doesn't justify anything, or mean the dangers from depleted uranium shouldn't be taken seriously.

Right, "the dangers of DU," which are less than the dangers of every day household chemicals, less than the dangers of iron pills, less than the dangers of gasoline, drain/oven cleaners, and lubricants, less than the dangers of inhaled Prius exhaust. All of which are in abundance in the civilian world and can be nearly instantly deadly. In other words, since it use as a nearly ideal penetrator for, and component of, armour is less than the threat posed by every day items, it's use actually is justified.

Should you disagree you have to do more than just say that you don't like the stuff. No one that you have to convince cares what you feel about it.

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Cordially,
Rush

elrushbo2@theobviousgmail.com
Remove the obvious...

Oh Rush, now you're arguing for argument's sake. But more likely I'd say it's just argument by pigheadedness. You're continuing to justify the use of DU while ignoring the significant long-term health dangers it poses to both military personel and civilians, and constantly trying to shift focus away from those dangers by talking about how bad other things are. So far you've tried to use gasoline, Clorox, Mr. Clean, projectile propellant, iron, crankcase oil, lubricants, and... a Toyota, as examples of why DU isn't really a big deal when compared to those things. This is just absurd. By this kind of reasoning we can also simply say that cigarettes are harmful and therefore it's okay to use DU. Most of the people that are saying that depleted uranium isn't really that bad are basing their conclusion on the idea that DU contamination is not that dangerous because it's more likely that there will be small amounts of exposure for a short period of time. In reality though, it's more likely that exposure in a certain area would actually be much higher, due to the dispersion caused by the explosion. While the time that it stays in that area is much longer.

Now to your question about me having anything more than my opinion about depleted uranium not being worth it. Well see Rush, I'm very satisfied that my opinion is based on technical and scientific facts. While DU may be better at penetrating armor, there were and are alternatives that don't have the bad consequences of DU. And, as long as the government continues to refuse to release documents relating to DU, I have enough reason to have this opinion, because there is no good national security reasons to keep these documents secret. But that isn't something that surprises me considering what they did during Project SHAD. And Rush, it's not only not worth it to me. Dr. Doug Rokke, the former head of the Depleted Uranium Project doesn't think it's worth it either. I agree.

Watch, and learn.

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Oh Rush, now you're arguing for argument's sake. But more likely I'd say it's just argument by pigheadedness. You're continuing to justify the use of DU while ignoring the significant long-term health dangers it poses to both military personel and civilians, and constantly trying to shift focus away from those dangers by talking about how bad other things are. So far you've tried to use gasoline, Clorox, Mr. Clean, projectile propellant, iron, crankcase oil, lubricants, and... a Toyota, as examples of why DU isn't really a big deal when compared to those things. This is just absurd.

No, I'm not ignoring the long term. That was the whole point. I'm saying (have said) that your "long term dangers," as you put it, are negligible compared to the actual short-term dangers that are contained in everyday household items.

What is absurd is that you seem incapable of understanding why they chose to use DU: because it is extremely effective at penetrating armour and less dangerous than a mouthful of household ammonia or Draino.

By this kind of reasoning we can also simply say that cigarettes are harmful and therefore it's okay to use DU.

You seem incapable of understanding the reasoning, because there is more too it than that. No one said simply said Draino or cigarettes is bad and therefore it's OK to use DU. What they did was do a cost/benefit analysis and decided that costs (possible human contamination and less danger than ingesting many everyday household items) were far less than the benefits (near guaranteed armour penetration during battle).

The argument is thus: We need something to penetrate armour, and DU is ideal. It is harmless when handled, but can be dangerous when ingested. It isn't likely to be ingested anymore than any number of significantly more dangerous every day household items and the exigencies of modern warfare are brutal; therefore we'll use DU as an armour penetrator.

Most of the people that are saying that depleted uranium isn't really that bad are basing their conclusion on the idea that DU contamination is not that dangerous because it's more likely that there will be small amounts of exposure for a short period of time. In reality though, it's more likely that exposure in a certain area would actually be much higher, due to the dispersion caused by the explosion. While the time that it stays in that area is much longer.

Sure. Just like powdered iron, or any number of substances that exist around. Or bleach. The point is that stuff that will kill you is EVERYWHERE. DU is less deadly than any number of them. Say you are in an accident and your car burns up. Frankly, you don't want to be inhaling any of the vinyl dust from the dashboard, any of the heavy metal dusts from the brake pads, linings, or disks, any of the overcooked plasticizer remnants, don't inhale any brake fluid, or any fumes from the melted hoses and belts, et cetera. All of these are not designed to be inside humans, period, any more than DU is. Many of them will kill you much faster than DU could ever hope to.

Now to your question about me having anything more than my opinion about depleted uranium not being worth it. Well see Rush, I'm very satisfied that my opinion is based on technical and scientific facts.

Of course you are. You simply haven't presented any argument other than saying that there are others that agree with you. You haven't made any case whatsoever other than you wouldn't have used DU. So what? It isn't your job to keep soldiers alive in battle. It isn't your job to design the most effective and accurate weapons systems that you can.

Your opinion is that powdered DU can harm people? Sure. So can powdered iron, and there's WAY more powdered iron and steel in a destroyed armoured vehicle because they are MADE of the stuff. Hell, some people take PILLS made from powdered iron... don't OD on those, you're done for.

While DU may be better at penetrating armor, there were and are alternatives that don't have the bad consequences of DU.

To you maybe. Other people disagreed and thought the benefits (unparalleled effectiveness in battle) outweighed the consequences (the dust can be dangerous if ingested).

And, as long as the government continues to refuse to release documents relating to DU, I have enough reason to have this opinion, because there is no good national security reasons to keep these documents secret.

I tend to agree with you about keeping documents secret, but since you likely don't have anything resembling a TS/SBI clearance I doubt you have any idea whatsoever about what would constitute sufficient reason for national security classifications. Rule of thumb: when in doubt, classify. When in doubt about the level of classification, over classify.

But that isn't something that surprises me considering what they did during Project SHAD. And Rush, it's not only not worth it to me. Dr. Doug Rokke, the former head of the Depleted Uranium Project doesn't think it's worth it either. I agree.

Again, you quoted someone who agrees with you. Dude, people disagree. And when a passionate opponent provides those he needs to convince with nothing more than drivel like posted in this thread, it makes them easy to ignore and dismiss.

You won't change your mind and agree with them, what possibly makes you think that they will change their mind and agree with you? Especially given the types of arguments contained in this thread? Guess what, do that to them, and they'll dismiss you out of hand.

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Cordially,
Rush

elrushbo2@theobviousgmail.com
Remove the obvious...

Thanks KWSN - MajorKong,

I'll never hit the red button....

Well, except when you do hit the red button...

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Cordially,
Rush

elrushbo2@theobviousgmail.com
Remove the obvious...

I meant to address that but forgot where I'd posted it,

You and Caveman brought the best out of me. Thanks for tracking this down and posting.

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"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

What is absurd is that you seem incapable of understanding why they chose to use DU: because it is extremely effective at penetrating armour and less dangerous than a mouthful of household ammonia or Draino.

This is a distortion. In no way did I indicate that I didn't understand why DU was chosen. I'm well aware that DU is a good armor penetrator, and this is something I indicated previously in message 611321.

You seem incapable of understanding the reasoning, because there is more too it than that. No one said simply said Draino or cigarettes is bad and therefore it's OK to use DU. What they did was do a cost/benefit analysis and decided that costs (possible human contamination and less danger than ingesting many everyday household items) were far less than the benefits (near guaranteed armour penetration during battle).

I understand what the reasoning was/is for the military's decision to use DU. What I was pointing out was the continued reasoning that you're using to justify it. It's not difficult to understand from the overall tone of your arguments that you think the use DU is justified when we compare other bad things (Clorox, Mr. Clean, whatever) to it. If you do some research into what happens when radioactive and toxic particles from depleted uranium imbed themselves in the human body you might just understand why the "cost/benefit analysis" that you're talking about is flawed. Tell the thousands of Gulf War veterans that have been disabled by DU how it's worth it according to your "cost/benefit analysis".

Sure. Just like powdered iron, or any number of substances that exist around. Or bleach. The point is that stuff that will kill you is EVERYWHERE. DU is less deadly than any number of them. Say you are in an accident and your car burns up.

More absurd analogies.

Your opinion is that powdered DU can harm people? Sure. So can powdered iron, and there's WAY more powdered iron and steel in a destroyed armoured vehicle because they are MADE of the stuff. Hell, some people take PILLS made from powdered iron... don't OD on those, you're done for.

More repetition of the same analogies.

I tend to agree with you about keeping documents secret, but since you likely don't have anything resembling a TS/SBI clearance I doubt you have any idea whatsoever about what would constitute sufficient reason for national security classifications. Rule of thumb: when in doubt, classify. When in doubt about the level of classification, over classify.

On the contrary, I understand quite well. While I of course support the idea that many documents that have to do with sensitive technology and strategy should kept secret, I was referring to documents/memorandums concerning the effects of depleted uranium munitions on humans. DU is about as sensitive as standard hand grenades. Wer're not talking about the guidance systems of ICBMs here.

Again, you quoted someone who agrees with you. Dude, people disagree. And when a passionate opponent provides those he needs to convince with nothing more than drivel like posted in this thread, it makes them easy to ignore and dismiss.

And that someone just happens to be one of the world's most knowledgable experts on the effects of depleted uranium. Why? Because not only was he the director of the Army's Depleted Uranium Project, he was also assigned by the Army to clean up DU contamination and provide medical recommendations.

You won't change your mind and agree with them, what possibly makes you think that they will change their mind and agree with you? Especially given the types of arguments contained in this thread? Guess what, do that to them, and they'll dismiss you out of hand.

Change my mind and agree with who? I'm making an argument just like you are.

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This is a distortion. In no way did I indicate that I didn't understand why DU was chosen. I'm well aware that DU is a good armor penetrator, and this is something I indicated previously in message 611321.

Good. It certainly seems like you don't, but I'll take this at face value.

I understand what the reasoning was/is for the military's decision to use DU. What I was pointing out was the continued reasoning that you're using to justify it. It's not difficult to understand from the overall tone of your arguments that you think the use DU is justified when we compare other bad things (Clorox, Mr. Clean, whatever) to it. If you do some research into what happens when radioactive and toxic particles from depleted uranium imbed themselves in the human body you might just understand why the "cost/benefit analysis" that you're talking about is flawed. Tell the thousands of Gulf War veterans that have been disabled by DU how it's worth it according to your "cost/benefit analysis".

A/C, you're better than this, and you aren't dumb. The reasoning isn't flawed, it's the same reasoning behind why deadly poisons are available as every day household items. Because whether you like it or not, the costs are less than the benefits. If you do some research into what happens when chlorine gas from ammonia and bleach fill the lungs of the human body you might just understand why the cost/benefit analysis comes out the way it does. Or see what heavy metal poisoning does. Or ingesting brake fluid. Guess what: they're poisons.

As far as the Gulf War veterans (being one myself), I don't know what to tell you. A) There are a significant number of far more deadly things on a battlefield than DU dust, namely flying bullets and exploding explosives. B) Showing causality is much harder than showing correlation.

[quote]Sure. Just like powdered iron, or any number of substances that exist around. Or bleach. The point is that stuff that will kill you is EVERYWHERE. DU is less deadly than any number of them. Say you are in an accident and your car burns up.

More absurd analogies.

Your opinion is that powdered DU can harm people? Sure. So can powdered iron, and there's WAY more powdered iron and steel in a destroyed armoured vehicle because they are MADE of the stuff. Hell, some people take PILLS made from powdered iron... don't OD on those, you're done for.

More repetition of the same analogies.

Except that they aren't absurd. They just illustrate the point that deadly poisons are all around us, every day, and none of them are designed to be ingested. Well, except for iron pills...

For them to be absurd you have to make an argument that, on the battlefield, the costs of DU are so great, that it is worth sacrificing the lives U.S. solders and brutally expensive vehicles to use something less effective.

Since you like to appeal to the masses, tell the thousands of Gulf War veterans whose lives have been saved by the use of DU how their lives weren't worth saving because someone might eat some DU dust. It's basically the same argument that the U.S. Poison Control Centers use when explaining to parents why deadly household poisons are so readily available.

On the contrary, I understand quite well. While I of course support the idea that many documents that have to do with sensitive technology and strategy should kept secret, I was referring to documents/memorandums concerning the effects of depleted uranium munitions on humans. DU is about as sensitive as standard hand grenades. Wer're not talking about the guidance systems of ICBMs here.

No, but no one who creates classified documents risks their career by under-classifying them. And no one who declassifies documents risks their career by over-declassifying them. And they certainly won't do it on the claims of people who haven't seen them. That's the nature of the beast. C'est la vie. What we should do is have these people run our health care...

And that someone just happens to be one of the world's most knowledgable experts on the effects of depleted uranium. Why? Because not only was he the director of the Army's Depleted Uranium Project, he was also assigned by the Army to clean up DU contamination and provide medical recommendations.

Did you listen to what he said? At about 1:35 he says that he's considered 40% disabled "...from combat injuries caused by DU and other exposures." Get that? He says DU "and other exposures." And other exposures. What pray tell are those? Heavy metals? Iron and steel dust? Exhaust gases? Fuels and petroleums? Explosives residue? Brake fluid?

You see, even your own expert notes that there are other dangerous things on the battlefield. That illustrates my point, and is the reason there are plenty of skeptics. What percentage of his "combat injuries" are caused by DU dust and what percentage by his other exposures to other dangerous items? How would he know? Basically, he can't.

Change my mind and agree with who? I'm making an argument just like you are.

Your argument so far has been nothing more than the use of DU isn't worth it to you.

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Cordially,
Rush

elrushbo2@theobviousgmail.com
Remove the obvious...

This is like talking about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin...war is war, and war is a bioatch. There is no way on earth to make it more "civilized," at best you can only cut down the loses. If you don't like loses, don't go to war. If you are forced to go to war like when Japan bombed Pearl Harbor, you fight to win with clear objectives, using all the nasty tools you can think of in the process to win. Period.

War is basically immoral, civilized recourse has failed, and limited war is even more immoral because it is a prime oxymoron of the worst kind.

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Account frozen...

This is like talking about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin...war is war, and war is a bioatch. There is no way on earth to make it more "civilized," at best you can only cut down the loses. If you don't like loses, don't go to war. If you are forced to go to war like when Japan bombed Pearl Harbor, you fight to win with clear objectives, using all the nasty tools you can think of in the process to win. Period.

War is basically immoral, civilized recourse has failed, and limited war is even more immoral because it is a prime oxymoron of the worst kind.

Well said. Given that the military only has one goal: to win, the very nature of that force is to utterly dismantle the conventions and constructions of civilization - and generally that includes gutting people's "rights." That also means maiming and killing as many of them as possible.

You go to war to win, and this is very very important: no matter how many babies are born deformed. Anything else is, as Dennis said, even worse.

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Cordially,
Rush

elrushbo2@theobviousgmail.com
Remove the obvious...

Beyond Treason - 2005

1 hour 28 mins 53 secs

http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docId=711231124714712890&hl=en

Beyond Treason investigates causes of Gulf War Illness and continuing deaths of gulf war veterans.

Beyond Treason outlines: - exposure to depleted uranium munitions used on the battlefield. - chemical and biological exposures. - experimental vaccines given. Statistics show that 250,000 troops are now permanently disabled, 15,000 troops are dead and over 425,000 are ill and slowly dying.

Beyond Treason 100 minute documentary presents comprehensive and compelling documentation from United States Government archives of a massive cover-up lasting over two generations.



.

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"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

PM me for bargain basement prices on these rounds. I've got a warehouse full of them.....

Don't be shy............ *sigh*

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Founder of BOINC team Objectivists. Oh the humanity! Rational people crunching data!
I did NOT authorize this belly writing!