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Message 603162 - Posted: 14 Jul 2007, 3:36:54 UTC
Last modified: 14 Jul 2007, 3:39:12 UTC

The German interior minister Schäuble (already known for his more than just conservative point of view) showed that he really suffers paranoia, when he pushed forward the fairy tale of Germany having become a target of terror:

Germans Weigh Civil Rights and Public Safety


Wolfgang Schäuble, the interior minister, wants a freer hand in detaining terrorism suspects and monitoring computers. Opposition is strong.


By MARK LANDLER
Published: July 13, 2007

FRANKFURT, July 12 — Germany, fearful of being the next major target for Islamic terrorists, is edging away from its deep aversion to intrusive and harsh enforcement tactics, provoking a storm of protest from those who recall the official brutality of Nazism and Communism in decades past.

Sensing a growing threat, Germany’s top security official, Wolfgang Schäuble, is breaking down resistance within the government to surreptitious online searches of computers belonging to people they deem suspicious. He is pushing for a law to allow security forces to shoot down a plane commandeered by hijackers. And he said this week that Germany should consider detaining potential terrorists and approving the killing of terrorist leaders abroad.

Such proposals are anathema to many in a country that has sought to eradicate any vestiges of state-sanctioned savagery by erecting a legal framework that enshrines the rights of the individual over the state. Critics say the changes would erode civil liberties and jeopardize Germany’s hard-won rule of law.

Yet by all accounts Mr. Schäuble, the interior minister and a canny conservative politician who has used a wheelchair since an assassination attempt in 1990, has Chancellor Angela Merkel’s staunch backing to shift the debate, even as she has made it clear that she will not endorse detentions or targeted killings.

“We have threats that we didn’t even know 10 years ago,” she said Tuesday on German television. “I want an interior minister who will grapple with these new threats.”

Germany’s debate underscores the growing conviction of security officials here that German cities will not escape the kinds of attacks that have bloodied London, Glasgow, Madrid and Istanbul since 9/11, a plot hatched by militant Muslims who used Hamburg as a refuge.

Last month Mr. Schäuble warned that Germany faced a heightened threat of attack, possibly even a suicide bombing, because of its military engagement in Afghanistan. His deputy, August Hanning, said the danger level was comparable to that of the months before 9/11.

The debate also comes at a time of rising tension within Germany’s large, mostly Turkish, Muslim population. On Thursday, four major Turkish groups boycotted an annual meeting on integration held by Mrs. Merkel, to protest the recent tightening of German immigration laws.

Given the growing concerns, several experts here said, it is time for Germany to re-evaluate the balance between personal liberties and collective security in its counterterrorism policy.

“We need this discussion about how far we have to go, and how far we can go legally,” said Guido Steinberg, who advised the previous chancellor, Gerhard Schröder, on terrorism issues.

Mr. Steinberg, now a researcher at the German Institute for International and Security Affairs in Berlin, said some of Mr. Schäuble’s proposals, particularly targeted killings, went too far.

But he said Germany needed to close other loopholes in its laws, including one that distinguishes between giving material support to a terrorist group, which is a crime, and simply promoting its message, which is not.

While few here want to set up a German outpost like the Guantánamo Bay military prison, current laws in Germany prevent the authorities from detaining people who they believe might be terrorist conspirators but whom they cannot extradite.

Mr. Schäuble has been calling for more muscular policies to combat terrorism since he joined the current government in 2005. A seasoned Christian Democratic leader, Mr. Schäuble, 64, is regarded as a shrewd tactician and one of the political heavyweights in Mrs. Merkel’s cabinet.

In January he said he would seek a constitutional amendment to allow authorities to shoot down a hijacked airplane to head off a terrorist attack. The Federal Constitutional Court struck down a similar law proposed by the previous government in 2006.

He also has not hesitated to seize on terrorist threats, at home or abroad, to press his agenda. Mr. Schäuble’s latest public-relations campaign came days after the botched car-bombings in London.

“The old categories no longer apply,” he said in an interview in the German weekly Der Spiegel. “We have to clarify whether our constitutional state is sufficient for confronting the new threats.”

Describing a situation in which Osama bin Laden’s exact whereabouts were discovered, Mr. Schäuble said, “The Americans would execute him with a missile, and most people would say, ‘Thank God.’ ”

These remarks, which were confirmed by a ministry spokesman, brought heated criticism from opposition leaders and even some Social Democratic members of his own “grand coalition” government.

“He would lead the country down a very dangerous path,” said the co-chairman of the opposition Green Party, Reinhard Bütikofer. “He is advocating the exact opposite of what Prime Minister Gordon Brown has demonstrated so admirably: a combination of determination and equanimity.”

No other European country has publicly debated its terrorism laws since the failed British attacks. One of the few responses of any kind has come from France’s new president, Nicolas Sarkozy, who reiterated his support for installing 1,000 closed-circuit surveillance cameras in Paris.

The timing and nature of the debate in Germany troubled some experts.

“One of the time-honored tactics of terrorists is to draw governments into overreacting,” said Gijs de Vries, a Dutchman who is the former counterterrorism coordinator for the European Union. “Governments should resist public pressure to pile on new measures after each incident.”

But Germany is also debating this issue now because of its deep involvement in Afghanistan. Germany has 3,000 troops there, part of a NATO force that has battled a persistent Taliban insurgency.

With the Parliament scheduled to vote in October on whether to extend the deployment, security officials worry that Germans, either in Afghanistan or at home, could become targets for attacks.

Last July Germany narrowly avoided a potentially deadly attack after a pair of suitcase bombs failed to explode on commuter trains. The suspects, from Lebanon, were said to be enraged by satirical cartoons about the Prophet Muhammad in a Danish newspaper.

That close call, Mr. Schäuble said in Der Spiegel, shows, “We could be struck at any time.”

Still, for now, he is facing a German public that treasures its liberties at least as much as its security. Already, his campaign has drawn unflattering historical parallels. On the Internet, a group promoting data privacy has sold T-shirts with Mr. Schäuble’s image above the slogan “Stasi 2.0” — a reference to an “improved” version of the reviled State Security Ministry of the former East Germany.

Peter Waldmann, a terrorism expert and emeritus professor at the University of Augsburg, said even a major attack would not overturn the German consensus in favor of protecting individual rights.

The shock of learning that the 9/11 attacks had been plotted in Hamburg was not enough, Mr. Waldmann said, because Germans comforted themselves that the threat was directed against the United States, not at Germany itself.

Now, authorities say the threat is directed squarely at Germans, which may make it tougher for people here to dismiss Mr. Schäuble’s arguments.

“If something happened, the same people who are criticizing him for going too far would criticize him for not going far enough,” said Eckart Klein, a professor of law at the University of Potsdam.

Some experts suggest that the real goal of Mr. Schäuble’s campaign is to win agreement on rules allowing secret searches of computer hard drives — something that seems within reach after officials from the Social Democratic Party said this week that they were open to a dialogue on the issue.

As for his more draconian proposals, Mr. Schäuble’s aides said he welcomed the sharp reaction.

“He’s trying to force our society to face up to these really difficult questions, for example, killing a terrorist,” said Christian Sachs, a spokesman for the Interior Ministry. “The German public has tried to stick its head in the sand, ignoring this dimension of this unorthodox war.”

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Message 603164 - Posted: 14 Jul 2007, 3:44:35 UTC
Last modified: 14 Jul 2007, 4:00:51 UTC

Last July Germany narrowly avoided a potentially deadly attack after a pair of suitcase bombs failed to explode on commuter trains. The suspects, from Lebanon, were said to be enraged by satirical cartoons about the Prophet Muhammad in a Danish newspaper.

These mentioned "suitcase bombs" in fact were 1)just a forgotten suitcase containing a laptop and some personal things (Hamburg); 2) a suitcase containing a gas bottle for camping, a gallon of fuel, and some personal stuff (Dortmund); 3) a bagpack, containing a camping size propane gas cylinder, a bottle of benzene lighter fuel, a clock-watch, and some personal stuff supposed to be used for camping (Koblenz)... Hardly possible that they explode!


Like I said: paranoia!

Okay, in 2003 a real suitcase bomb was found in Dresden - the only real one in the last 15 years! And this was placed by a German Technician who wanted to threaten the Deutsche Bahn

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Message 633869 - Posted: 5 Sep 2007, 12:01:38 UTC
Last modified: 5 Sep 2007, 12:19:05 UTC

Anschläge in Deutschland verhindert
Die deutschen Sicherheitsbehörden haben gestern Nachmittag drei Terror-Verdächtige festgenommen und damit nach den Worten von Generalbundesanwältin Monika Harms "massive Bombenanschläge" von islamistischen Terroristen in Deutschland vereitelt. Bei den Festgenommenen handelt es sich laut Harms um zwei Deutsche und einen Türken, die zu einer deutschen Zelle der "Islamischen Dschihad Union" gehören. Die Organistion stehe der Al Kaida nahe. ...
Laut Harms handelte es sich bei den geplanten Anschlägen um eine der schwerwiegendsten Bedrohungen in Deutschland durch den internationalen Terrorismus. Potenzielle Ziele waren demnach amerikanische Einrichtungen in Deutschland sowie Diskotheken, Pubs, Flughäfen und andere Stätten, die von US-Bürgern häufig aufgesucht würden.
Harms betonte jedoch, für die deutsche Bevölkerung habe keine Gefahr bestanden, weil die Sicherheitsbehörden rechtzeitig über die Aktivitäten der mutmaßlichen Terroristen informiert gewesen seien. Man habe die Verdächtigen seit Monaten beobachtet. Diese hätten geplant, Autobomben zu bauen und diese vor den Einrichtungen zur Explosion zu bringen.
Bei Hausdurchsuchungen in rund 30 Objekten im mehreren Bundesländern wurden in einem Ferienhaus im Sauerland Fässer mit insgesamt 730 Kilogramm Wasserstoffperoxidlösung sichergestellt. Die Wirkung des Sprengstoffes hätte laut Harms den Effekt von 550 Kilogramm TNT gehabt.
BKA-Präsident Jörg Ziercke ergänzte, die gefundene Menge hätte ausgereicht, "um Sprengsätze mit einer höheren Sprengkraft als bei den Anschlägen von Madrid und London zu konstruieren". Der Zugriff sei erfolgt, weil die Verdächtigen gestern mit dem Bombenbau begonnen hätten.
Ziercke sprach von einem Polizeieinsatz, der in dieser Dimension in der Geschichte des Bundeskriminalamtes noch nicht stattgefunden habe. Fast 300 Beamte seien über sechs Monate Tag und Nacht im Einsatz gewesen. Zur Entwarnung bestehe auch nach den Festnahmen kein Anlass. Es habe sich gezeigt, dass Deutschland für den internationalen Terrorismus nicht nur Ruheraum, sondern auch Ziel sei.

[translation]
Attacks in Germany impeded
German security officers arrested three terror suspects last afternoon, defeating "massive bomb attacks" by islamic terrorists in Germany according to the words of Federal General attorney Monika Harms. The arrested were according to Harms, two Germans and a Turk who belong to a German cell of the "Islamic Djihad Union". This organization stands close to Al Kaida. ...
According to Harms the planned attacks were the one of the heaviest threats in Germany by the international terrorism. Potential targets had been American facilities, as well as discotheques, pubs, airports and other places frequently visited by US citizens.
But Harms emphasised that there was never a danger for the German people because the security officers had been informed about the activities of the supposed terrorists in good time. The suspected have been watched for months. They had planned to build car bombs and bring them to explosion in front of the facilities.
At house round-ups in 30 objects in Germany, 30 barrels with in total 730 kg of hydrogen peroxide solution were secured in a holiday house in the Sauerland. According to Harms, the effect of this explosive would have been the effect of 550 kg of TNT.
BKA president Jörg Ziercke added,the amount found had been enough "to construct blasting compositions with a higher power than used at the attacks in London or Madrid". The access would have happened because the suspected had started to build the bombs yesterday.
Ziercke told of a police operation never happened in this dimension in the history of the BKA. Almost 300 officers would have been in the field day and night for over six month. Even despite these arrests there were no reason to signal all clear. It has been shown that Germany were not only rest area but also target for the international terrorism.
[/translation]

Of course: Hydrogen peroxide in solution is an explosive like TNT. :D
And of course this story is not just invented as a poor excuse for even more security paranoia...
And: mentioning international terrorism that often in this article - didn't they tell that 2 of 3 suspected had been Germans? And they really needed 300 officers in a 6 months operation to arrest 3 people?

How has a high-ranked politician stated in times of the terror organization RAF? "If the RAF wouldn't already exist, we had to invent them."
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Message 633924 - Posted: 5 Sep 2007, 13:22:26 UTC

Mr. Schäuble is certainly going too far with his proposals and I am glad that he still faces strong opposition.
However, there's one thing about the whole situation I don't understand:
If Germany's involvement with Afghanistan is the cause for all the trouble, why can't Germany simply withdraw its soldiers? To me, it looks like a much simpler option and it's better for the people, too.

The only reason I've heard of Schäuble's plans is that his proposals caused reactions here in Austria as well. The Austrian Minister of the Interior Günther Platter said he'd like to enable online inquiries (I'd rather call that "hacking") similar to Schäuble's proposals. Since Austria has recently gotten new interceptors, we've also recently had a discussion about shooting down hijacked civilian planes. If I recall correctly, it turned out that there probably is no conflict with the Constitution, but it remains unclear who would actually have the competence to order such an operation (either the Minister of the Interior or the Minister of Defense)

I seriously hope that the opposition keeps as strong as it is, I certainly don't want any legislation that restricts civil rights, even if public safety would benefit.
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Message 633953 - Posted: 5 Sep 2007, 13:53:15 UTC - in response to Message 633869.

Anschläge in Deutschland verhindert
Die deutschen Sicherheitsbehörden haben gestern Nachmittag drei Terror-Verdächtige festgenommen und damit nach den Worten von Generalbundesanwältin Monika Harms "massive Bombenanschläge" von islamistischen Terroristen in Deutschland vereitelt. Bei den Festgenommenen handelt es sich laut Harms um zwei Deutsche und einen Türken, die zu einer deutschen Zelle der "Islamischen Dschihad Union" gehören. Die Organistion stehe der Al Kaida nahe. ...
Laut Harms handelte es sich bei den geplanten Anschlägen um eine der schwerwiegendsten Bedrohungen in Deutschland durch den internationalen Terrorismus. Potenzielle Ziele waren demnach amerikanische Einrichtungen in Deutschland sowie Diskotheken, Pubs, Flughäfen und andere Stätten, die von US-Bürgern häufig aufgesucht würden.
Harms betonte jedoch, für die deutsche Bevölkerung habe keine Gefahr bestanden, weil die Sicherheitsbehörden rechtzeitig über die Aktivitäten der mutmaßlichen Terroristen informiert gewesen seien. Man habe die Verdächtigen seit Monaten beobachtet. Diese hätten geplant, Autobomben zu bauen und diese vor den Einrichtungen zur Explosion zu bringen.
Bei Hausdurchsuchungen in rund 30 Objekten im mehreren Bundesländern wurden in einem Ferienhaus im Sauerland Fässer mit insgesamt 730 Kilogramm Wasserstoffperoxidlösung sichergestellt. Die Wirkung des Sprengstoffes hätte laut Harms den Effekt von 550 Kilogramm TNT gehabt.
BKA-Präsident Jörg Ziercke ergänzte, die gefundene Menge hätte ausgereicht, "um Sprengsätze mit einer höheren Sprengkraft als bei den Anschlägen von Madrid und London zu konstruieren". Der Zugriff sei erfolgt, weil die Verdächtigen gestern mit dem Bombenbau begonnen hätten.
Ziercke sprach von einem Polizeieinsatz, der in dieser Dimension in der Geschichte des Bundeskriminalamtes noch nicht stattgefunden habe. Fast 300 Beamte seien über sechs Monate Tag und Nacht im Einsatz gewesen. Zur Entwarnung bestehe auch nach den Festnahmen kein Anlass. Es habe sich gezeigt, dass Deutschland für den internationalen Terrorismus nicht nur Ruheraum, sondern auch Ziel sei.

[translation]
Attacks in Germany impeded
German security officers arrested three terror suspects last afternoon, defeating "massive bomb attacks" by islamic terrorists in Germany according to the words of Federal General attorney Monika Harms. The arrested were according to Harms, two Germans and a Turk who belong to a German cell of the "Islamic Djihad Union". This organization stands close to Al Kaida. ...
According to Harms the planned attacks were the one of the heaviest threats in Germany by the international terrorism. Potential targets had been American facilities, as well as discotheques, pubs, airports and other places frequently visited by US citizens.
But Harms emphasised that there was never a danger for the German people because the security officers had been informed about the activities of the supposed terrorists in good time. The suspected have been watched for months. They had planned to build car bombs and bring them to explosion in front of the facilities.
At house round-ups in 30 objects in Germany, 30 barrels with in total 730 kg of hydrogen peroxide solution were secured in a holiday house in the Sauerland. According to Harms, the effect of this explosive would have been the effect of 550 kg of TNT.
BKA president Jörg Ziercke added,the amount found had been enough "to construct blasting compositions with a higher power than used at the attacks in London or Madrid". The access would have happened because the suspected had started to build the bombs yesterday.
Ziercke told of a police operation never happened in this dimension in the history of the BKA. Almost 300 officers would have been in the field day and night for over six month. Even despite these arrests there were no reason to signal all clear. It has been shown that Germany were not only rest area but also target for the international terrorism.
[/translation]

Of course: Hydrogen peroxide in solution is an explosive like TNT. :D
And of course this story is not just invented as a poor excuse for even more security paranoia...
And: mentioning international terrorism that often in this article - didn't they tell that 2 of 3 suspected had been Germans? And they really needed 300 officers in a 6 months operation to arrest 3 people?

How has a high-ranked politician stated in times of the terror organization RAF? "If the RAF wouldn't already exist, we had to invent them."


Why the hell would anyone use Hydrogen Peroxide for terrorist purposes? And what was the percent solution? Sounds to me like the whole chicken farmer propane tank scare.

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Message 633957 - Posted: 5 Sep 2007, 14:05:07 UTC

And they really needed 300 officers in a 6 months operation to arrest 3 people?


Sure, to arrest 3 people, you need only a few officers. But to find out, who and where they are, you need much more.
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Message 633964 - Posted: 5 Sep 2007, 14:17:53 UTC - in response to Message 633953.
Last modified: 5 Sep 2007, 14:20:31 UTC

Anschläge in Deutschland verhindert
Die deutschen Sicherheitsbehörden haben gestern Nachmittag drei Terror-Verdächtige festgenommen und damit nach den Worten von Generalbundesanwältin Monika Harms "massive Bombenanschläge" von islamistischen Terroristen in Deutschland vereitelt. Bei den Festgenommenen handelt es sich laut Harms um zwei Deutsche und einen Türken, die zu einer deutschen Zelle der "Islamischen Dschihad Union" gehören. Die Organistion stehe der Al Kaida nahe. ...
Laut Harms handelte es sich bei den geplanten Anschlägen um eine der schwerwiegendsten Bedrohungen in Deutschland durch den internationalen Terrorismus. Potenzielle Ziele waren demnach amerikanische Einrichtungen in Deutschland sowie Diskotheken, Pubs, Flughäfen und andere Stätten, die von US-Bürgern häufig aufgesucht würden.
Harms betonte jedoch, für die deutsche Bevölkerung habe keine Gefahr bestanden, weil die Sicherheitsbehörden rechtzeitig über die Aktivitäten der mutmaßlichen Terroristen informiert gewesen seien. Man habe die Verdächtigen seit Monaten beobachtet. Diese hätten geplant, Autobomben zu bauen und diese vor den Einrichtungen zur Explosion zu bringen.
Bei Hausdurchsuchungen in rund 30 Objekten im mehreren Bundesländern wurden in einem Ferienhaus im Sauerland Fässer mit insgesamt 730 Kilogramm Wasserstoffperoxidlösung sichergestellt. Die Wirkung des Sprengstoffes hätte laut Harms den Effekt von 550 Kilogramm TNT gehabt.
BKA-Präsident Jörg Ziercke ergänzte, die gefundene Menge hätte ausgereicht, "um Sprengsätze mit einer höheren Sprengkraft als bei den Anschlägen von Madrid und London zu konstruieren". Der Zugriff sei erfolgt, weil die Verdächtigen gestern mit dem Bombenbau begonnen hätten.
Ziercke sprach von einem Polizeieinsatz, der in dieser Dimension in der Geschichte des Bundeskriminalamtes noch nicht stattgefunden habe. Fast 300 Beamte seien über sechs Monate Tag und Nacht im Einsatz gewesen. Zur Entwarnung bestehe auch nach den Festnahmen kein Anlass. Es habe sich gezeigt, dass Deutschland für den internationalen Terrorismus nicht nur Ruheraum, sondern auch Ziel sei.

[translation]
Attacks in Germany impeded
German security officers arrested three terror suspects last afternoon, defeating "massive bomb attacks" by islamic terrorists in Germany according to the words of Federal General attorney Monika Harms. The arrested were according to Harms, two Germans and a Turk who belong to a German cell of the "Islamic Djihad Union". This organization stands close to Al Kaida. ...
According to Harms the planned attacks were the one of the heaviest threats in Germany by the international terrorism. Potential targets had been American facilities, as well as discotheques, pubs, airports and other places frequently visited by US citizens.
But Harms emphasised that there was never a danger for the German people because the security officers had been informed about the activities of the supposed terrorists in good time. The suspected have been watched for months. They had planned to build car bombs and bring them to explosion in front of the facilities.
At house round-ups in 30 objects in Germany, 30 barrels with in total 730 kg of hydrogen peroxide solution were secured in a holiday house in the Sauerland. According to Harms, the effect of this explosive would have been the effect of 550 kg of TNT.
BKA president Jörg Ziercke added,the amount found had been enough "to construct blasting compositions with a higher power than used at the attacks in London or Madrid". The access would have happened because the suspected had started to build the bombs yesterday.
Ziercke told of a police operation never happened in this dimension in the history of the BKA. Almost 300 officers would have been in the field day and night for over six month. Even despite these arrests there were no reason to signal all clear. It has been shown that Germany were not only rest area but also target for the international terrorism.
[/translation]

Of course: Hydrogen peroxide in solution is an explosive like TNT. :D
And of course this story is not just invented as a poor excuse for even more security paranoia...
And: mentioning international terrorism that often in this article - didn't they tell that 2 of 3 suspected had been Germans? And they really needed 300 officers in a 6 months operation to arrest 3 people?

How has a high-ranked politician stated in times of the terror organization RAF? "If the RAF wouldn't already exist, we had to invent them."


Why the hell would anyone use Hydrogen Peroxide for terrorist purposes? And what was the percent solution? Sounds to me like the whole chicken farmer propane tank scare.

What is not mentioned here is that both German nationals were Islamic converts who trained in Pakistan at an al Queda camp. Hydrogen Perozide of greater than 20% is basically a rocket fuel oxidizer and when mixed with carbonatous substances is explosive and in many cases very unstable. Just ask the German soldiers during WWII that had to fuel the Luftwaffa's Komet rocket plane. Being in possession of 750 Kg of industrial grade? That stuff is not for turning your hair blond.
And as far as having so many investigators on the job...would anyone prefer hundreds or a thousand deaths from a terrorist attack. The German investigation services should be applauded.
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Message 633965 - Posted: 5 Sep 2007, 14:19:37 UTC - in response to Message 633964.

Anschläge in Deutschland verhindert
Die deutschen Sicherheitsbehörden haben gestern Nachmittag drei Terror-Verdächtige festgenommen und damit nach den Worten von Generalbundesanwältin Monika Harms "massive Bombenanschläge" von islamistischen Terroristen in Deutschland vereitelt. Bei den Festgenommenen handelt es sich laut Harms um zwei Deutsche und einen Türken, die zu einer deutschen Zelle der "Islamischen Dschihad Union" gehören. Die Organistion stehe der Al Kaida nahe. ...
Laut Harms handelte es sich bei den geplanten Anschlägen um eine der schwerwiegendsten Bedrohungen in Deutschland durch den internationalen Terrorismus. Potenzielle Ziele waren demnach amerikanische Einrichtungen in Deutschland sowie Diskotheken, Pubs, Flughäfen und andere Stätten, die von US-Bürgern häufig aufgesucht würden.
Harms betonte jedoch, für die deutsche Bevölkerung habe keine Gefahr bestanden, weil die Sicherheitsbehörden rechtzeitig über die Aktivitäten der mutmaßlichen Terroristen informiert gewesen seien. Man habe die Verdächtigen seit Monaten beobachtet. Diese hätten geplant, Autobomben zu bauen und diese vor den Einrichtungen zur Explosion zu bringen.
Bei Hausdurchsuchungen in rund 30 Objekten im mehreren Bundesländern wurden in einem Ferienhaus im Sauerland Fässer mit insgesamt 730 Kilogramm Wasserstoffperoxidlösung sichergestellt. Die Wirkung des Sprengstoffes hätte laut Harms den Effekt von 550 Kilogramm TNT gehabt.
BKA-Präsident Jörg Ziercke ergänzte, die gefundene Menge hätte ausgereicht, "um Sprengsätze mit einer höheren Sprengkraft als bei den Anschlägen von Madrid und London zu konstruieren". Der Zugriff sei erfolgt, weil die Verdächtigen gestern mit dem Bombenbau begonnen hätten.
Ziercke sprach von einem Polizeieinsatz, der in dieser Dimension in der Geschichte des Bundeskriminalamtes noch nicht stattgefunden habe. Fast 300 Beamte seien über sechs Monate Tag und Nacht im Einsatz gewesen. Zur Entwarnung bestehe auch nach den Festnahmen kein Anlass. Es habe sich gezeigt, dass Deutschland für den internationalen Terrorismus nicht nur Ruheraum, sondern auch Ziel sei.

[translation]
Attacks in Germany impeded
German security officers arrested three terror suspects last afternoon, defeating "massive bomb attacks" by islamic terrorists in Germany according to the words of Federal General attorney Monika Harms. The arrested were according to Harms, two Germans and a Turk who belong to a German cell of the "Islamic Djihad Union". This organization stands close to Al Kaida. ...
According to Harms the planned attacks were the one of the heaviest threats in Germany by the international terrorism. Potential targets had been American facilities, as well as discotheques, pubs, airports and other places frequently visited by US citizens.
But Harms emphasised that there was never a danger for the German people because the security officers had been informed about the activities of the supposed terrorists in good time. The suspected have been watched for months. They had planned to build car bombs and bring them to explosion in front of the facilities.
At house round-ups in 30 objects in Germany, 30 barrels with in total 730 kg of hydrogen peroxide solution were secured in a holiday house in the Sauerland. According to Harms, the effect of this explosive would have been the effect of 550 kg of TNT.
BKA president Jörg Ziercke added,the amount found had been enough "to construct blasting compositions with a higher power than used at the attacks in London or Madrid". The access would have happened because the suspected had started to build the bombs yesterday.
Ziercke told of a police operation never happened in this dimension in the history of the BKA. Almost 300 officers would have been in the field day and night for over six month. Even despite these arrests there were no reason to signal all clear. It has been shown that Germany were not only rest area but also target for the international terrorism.
[/translation]

Of course: Hydrogen peroxide in solution is an explosive like TNT. :D
And of course this story is not just invented as a poor excuse for even more security paranoia...
And: mentioning international terrorism that often in this article - didn't they tell that 2 of 3 suspected had been Germans? And they really needed 300 officers in a 6 months operation to arrest 3 people?

How has a high-ranked politician stated in times of the terror organization RAF? "If the RAF wouldn't already exist, we had to invent them."


Why the hell would anyone use Hydrogen Peroxide for terrorist purposes? And what was the percent solution? Sounds to me like the whole chicken farmer propane tank scare.

What is not mentioned here is that both German nationals were Islamic converts who trained in Pakistan at an al Queda camp. Hydrogen Perozide of greater than 20% is basically a rocket fuel oxidizer and when mixed with carbonatous substances is explosive and in many cases very unstable. Just ask the German soldiers during WWII that had to fuel the Luftwaffa's Komet rocket plane. Being in possession of 750 Kg for the stuff is not for turning your hair blond.
And as far as having so many investigators on the job...would anyone prefer hundreds or a thousand deaths from a terrorist attack. The German investigation services should be applauded.


I must agree with DB in all his points!
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Message 633974 - Posted: 5 Sep 2007, 14:32:02 UTC - in response to Message 633964.

Anschläge in Deutschland verhindert
Die deutschen Sicherheitsbehörden haben gestern Nachmittag drei Terror-Verdächtige festgenommen und damit nach den Worten von Generalbundesanwältin Monika Harms "massive Bombenanschläge" von islamistischen Terroristen in Deutschland vereitelt. Bei den Festgenommenen handelt es sich laut Harms um zwei Deutsche und einen Türken, die zu einer deutschen Zelle der "Islamischen Dschihad Union" gehören. Die Organistion stehe der Al Kaida nahe. ...
Laut Harms handelte es sich bei den geplanten Anschlägen um eine der schwerwiegendsten Bedrohungen in Deutschland durch den internationalen Terrorismus. Potenzielle Ziele waren demnach amerikanische Einrichtungen in Deutschland sowie Diskotheken, Pubs, Flughäfen und andere Stätten, die von US-Bürgern häufig aufgesucht würden.
Harms betonte jedoch, für die deutsche Bevölkerung habe keine Gefahr bestanden, weil die Sicherheitsbehörden rechtzeitig über die Aktivitäten der mutmaßlichen Terroristen informiert gewesen seien. Man habe die Verdächtigen seit Monaten beobachtet. Diese hätten geplant, Autobomben zu bauen und diese vor den Einrichtungen zur Explosion zu bringen.
Bei Hausdurchsuchungen in rund 30 Objekten im mehreren Bundesländern wurden in einem Ferienhaus im Sauerland Fässer mit insgesamt 730 Kilogramm Wasserstoffperoxidlösung sichergestellt. Die Wirkung des Sprengstoffes hätte laut Harms den Effekt von 550 Kilogramm TNT gehabt.
BKA-Präsident Jörg Ziercke ergänzte, die gefundene Menge hätte ausgereicht, "um Sprengsätze mit einer höheren Sprengkraft als bei den Anschlägen von Madrid und London zu konstruieren". Der Zugriff sei erfolgt, weil die Verdächtigen gestern mit dem Bombenbau begonnen hätten.
Ziercke sprach von einem Polizeieinsatz, der in dieser Dimension in der Geschichte des Bundeskriminalamtes noch nicht stattgefunden habe. Fast 300 Beamte seien über sechs Monate Tag und Nacht im Einsatz gewesen. Zur Entwarnung bestehe auch nach den Festnahmen kein Anlass. Es habe sich gezeigt, dass Deutschland für den internationalen Terrorismus nicht nur Ruheraum, sondern auch Ziel sei.

[translation]
Attacks in Germany impeded
German security officers arrested three terror suspects last afternoon, defeating "massive bomb attacks" by islamic terrorists in Germany according to the words of Federal General attorney Monika Harms. The arrested were according to Harms, two Germans and a Turk who belong to a German cell of the "Islamic Djihad Union". This organization stands close to Al Kaida. ...
According to Harms the planned attacks were the one of the heaviest threats in Germany by the international terrorism. Potential targets had been American facilities, as well as discotheques, pubs, airports and other places frequently visited by US citizens.
But Harms emphasised that there was never a danger for the German people because the security officers had been informed about the activities of the supposed terrorists in good time. The suspected have been watched for months. They had planned to build car bombs and bring them to explosion in front of the facilities.
At house round-ups in 30 objects in Germany, 30 barrels with in total 730 kg of hydrogen peroxide solution were secured in a holiday house in the Sauerland. According to Harms, the effect of this explosive would have been the effect of 550 kg of TNT.
BKA president Jörg Ziercke added,the amount found had been enough "to construct blasting compositions with a higher power than used at the attacks in London or Madrid". The access would have happened because the suspected had started to build the bombs yesterday.
Ziercke told of a police operation never happened in this dimension in the history of the BKA. Almost 300 officers would have been in the field day and night for over six month. Even despite these arrests there were no reason to signal all clear. It has been shown that Germany were not only rest area but also target for the international terrorism.
[/translation]

Of course: Hydrogen peroxide in solution is an explosive like TNT. :D
And of course this story is not just invented as a poor excuse for even more security paranoia...
And: mentioning international terrorism that often in this article - didn't they tell that 2 of 3 suspected had been Germans? And they really needed 300 officers in a 6 months operation to arrest 3 people?

How has a high-ranked politician stated in times of the terror organization RAF? "If the RAF wouldn't already exist, we had to invent them."


Why the hell would anyone use Hydrogen Peroxide for terrorist purposes? And what was the percent solution? Sounds to me like the whole chicken farmer propane tank scare.

What is not mentioned here is that both German nationals were Islamic converts who trained in Pakistan at an al Queda camp. Hydrogen Perozide of greater than 20% is basically a rocket fuel oxidizer and when mixed with carbonatous substances is explosive and in many cases very unstable. Just ask the German soldiers during WWII that had to fuel the Luftwaffa's Komet rocket plane. Being in possession of 750 Kg of industrial grade? That stuff is not for turning your hair blond.
And as far as having so many investigators on the job...would anyone prefer hundreds or a thousand deaths from a terrorist attack. The German investigation services should be applauded.


Yeah, it's explosive all right and very, very unstable. In order to keep it from going up all by it's self you have to keep it refrigerated. I can think of a whole lot of other chemicals that lend themselves to making explosives that are cheaper and a lot more stable.

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Message 633979 - Posted: 5 Sep 2007, 14:37:57 UTC
Last modified: 5 Sep 2007, 14:44:47 UTC

H²O² is cheap. Na²O² is really a nasty oxidizer, but far more expensive...mix it with icing sugar and drop one drop of water on it as see what happens...and they're worried about taking liquids on airplanes. Na²O² looks like Gold Bond Medicated foot powder and icing sugar of coarse looks like talcum powder.
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Message 633980 - Posted: 5 Sep 2007, 14:38:38 UTC - in response to Message 633979.

H²O² is cheap.


Sugar is a lot cheaper and easier to store.
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Message 633990 - Posted: 5 Sep 2007, 14:53:24 UTC

I still think that was a made-up story to keep the fear and paranoia running. See the German RAF: since the very first months of their "first generation", they had been infiltrated by BKA and Verfassungsschutz, and strangely, the victims of the RAF only have been people who were inconvenient to the neo-liberals. This makes me wonder if the entire RAF, like many other terror organization elsewhere, haven't been founded, enforced, and kept "alive" by these intelligence agencies.
Maybe, this "Islamische Djihad Union" is such also a made-up trap founded by some paid provokers?
Why else do you think do such "planned attacks" only happen when such paranoid politicians like Schäuble face more opposition than expected?
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Message 633994 - Posted: 5 Sep 2007, 14:56:34 UTC - in response to Message 633990.

I still think that was a made-up story to keep the fear and paranoia running. See the German RAF: since the very first months of their "first generation", they had been infiltrated by BKA and Verfassungsschutz, and strangely, the victims of the RAF only have been people who were inconvenient to the neo-liberals. This makes me wonder if the entire RAF, like many other terror organization elsewhere, haven't been founded, enforced, and kept "alive" by these intelligence agencies.
Maybe, this "Islamische Djihad Union" is such also a made-up trap founded by some paid provokers?
Why else do you think do such "planned attacks" only happen when such paranoid politicians like Schäuble face more opposition than expected?


I doubt it was made up. It's just a matter of the "stupid" terrorists getting caught. Although, I am curious as to how they kept that much Hydrogen peroxide stable.

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Message 633997 - Posted: 5 Sep 2007, 14:59:31 UTC - in response to Message 633994.

I still think that was a made-up story to keep the fear and paranoia running. See the German RAF: since the very first months of their "first generation", they had been infiltrated by BKA and Verfassungsschutz, and strangely, the victims of the RAF only have been people who were inconvenient to the neo-liberals. This makes me wonder if the entire RAF, like many other terror organization elsewhere, haven't been founded, enforced, and kept "alive" by these intelligence agencies.
Maybe, this "Islamische Djihad Union" is such also a made-up trap founded by some paid provokers?
Why else do you think do such "planned attacks" only happen when such paranoid politicians like Schäuble face more opposition than expected?


I doubt it was made up. It's just a matter of the "stupid" terrorists getting caught. Although, I am curious as to how they kept that much Hydrogen peroxide stable.
I'm sure it was in a solution of 3% or less.

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Message 634000 - Posted: 5 Sep 2007, 15:02:13 UTC - in response to Message 633997.

I still think that was a made-up story to keep the fear and paranoia running. See the German RAF: since the very first months of their "first generation", they had been infiltrated by BKA and Verfassungsschutz, and strangely, the victims of the RAF only have been people who were inconvenient to the neo-liberals. This makes me wonder if the entire RAF, like many other terror organization elsewhere, haven't been founded, enforced, and kept "alive" by these intelligence agencies.
Maybe, this "Islamische Djihad Union" is such also a made-up trap founded by some paid provokers?
Why else do you think do such "planned attacks" only happen when such paranoid politicians like Schäuble face more opposition than expected?


I doubt it was made up. It's just a matter of the "stupid" terrorists getting caught. Although, I am curious as to how they kept that much Hydrogen peroxide stable.
I'm sure it was in a solution of 3% or less.

3% or less? That really is stupid! Maybe they had a really, REALLY, bad paper cut. I wonder what's next for Stupid Terrorist Tricks.
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Message 634005 - Posted: 5 Sep 2007, 15:08:15 UTC - in response to Message 634000.

I still think that was a made-up story to keep the fear and paranoia running. See the German RAF: since the very first months of their "first generation", they had been infiltrated by BKA and Verfassungsschutz, and strangely, the victims of the RAF only have been people who were inconvenient to the neo-liberals. This makes me wonder if the entire RAF, like many other terror organization elsewhere, haven't been founded, enforced, and kept "alive" by these intelligence agencies.
Maybe, this "Islamische Djihad Union" is such also a made-up trap founded by some paid provokers?
Why else do you think do such "planned attacks" only happen when such paranoid politicians like Schäuble face more opposition than expected?


I doubt it was made up. It's just a matter of the "stupid" terrorists getting caught. Although, I am curious as to how they kept that much Hydrogen peroxide stable.
I'm sure it was in a solution of 3% or less.

3% or less? That really is stupid! Maybe they had a really, REALLY, bad paper cut. I wonder what's next for Stupid Terrorist Tricks.

Well, Germany had a long time without terroristic attacks - it was time for a new threat to make the dumb sheep (the people) fear again...
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Message 634038 - Posted: 5 Sep 2007, 16:02:01 UTC
Last modified: 5 Sep 2007, 16:03:21 UTC

In the night July 30/31, 3 persons were arrested in and around Berlin, accused to have tried to set 3 Bundeswehr trucks in fire. Normally, this would have been treated as attempted arson.
The next day, July 31, police raided 4 houses in Berlin and arrested a forth person, claiming he was connected to the other 3. When they were brought to the investigation judge(?), he decided to accuse them not for arson, but for a terrorist act and membership in a terroristic organization, "though there is no discoveries by the police, this doesn't oppose the assumption of a suspect of a membership in a terroristic organization, ...as it arises from the scripts of the "militant group (mg)" this complies exactly to the requirements this organization lays on their members".

And the 4th person who was arrested later was added to the same accusation, because "An essay of him contain phrases which are also used in texts by the "militant group"", and "... as a graduated political scientist he is intellectually able to write the rather sophisticated texts of the "mg", and as an employee of a research center he has access to libraries which he can use to do the research needed for writing the texts for the "mg" [...]Furthermore it speaks for a membership in the "militant group" that in an article written in June 2005 he reported about a failed attack by the terrorist group "RZ" in 1972, and the same attack has been a topic in a text of the "mg" in spring 2005".

***
So if you attempt something criminal, you have to care whether or not your deeds "meet the requirements of a terroristic organization". And if you're an intellectual person who only knows such "wannabe criminals", you even have to care whether or not your essays and articles are containing phrases used by terrorists! But if you check this up - that would mean you read texts of terrorists, this would make you a terrorist even more!
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Message 634052 - Posted: 5 Sep 2007, 16:32:13 UTC

I just got a look at the container pictures of the hydrogen peroxide containers...they were 35% grade, which if mixed with alcohol would make a nasty little bang. The hydrogen peroxide is mixed with small amounts of phosphoric acid to stabilize it. It looks like they've been doing their homework from the "Terrorist Cookbook."
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Message 634084 - Posted: 5 Sep 2007, 17:03:57 UTC - in response to Message 634052.

I just got a look at the container pictures of the hydrogen peroxide containers...they were 35% grade, which if mixed with alcohol would make a nasty little bang. The hydrogen peroxide is mixed with small amounts of phosphoric acid to stabilize it. It looks like they've been doing their homework from the "Terrorist Cookbook."


Nasty. That's not really something I would like to play around with.

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Message 634118 - Posted: 5 Sep 2007, 17:32:43 UTC - in response to Message 634052.

I just got a look at the container pictures of the hydrogen peroxide containers...they were 35% grade, which if mixed with alcohol would make a nasty little bang. The hydrogen peroxide is mixed with small amounts of phosphoric acid to stabilize it. It looks like they've been doing their homework from the "Terrorist Cookbook."

Aww c'mon. that's pictures given to the conservative mainstream media - are THEY telling the truth? IMHO they needed a scapegoat, and put up a story against them.
Before the 50s it was the evil Nazi, then until the 90s it was the evil Commies, now it's the evil Muslims - seems that some kind of people just can't go without an enemy. If there are none, they are made or invented, at all cost.
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