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Profile dave
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Message 601151 - Posted: 10 Jul 2007, 1:18:51 UTC

i seen on morning TBN broadcast with Pat Robertson. Pat said that global warming is not just Earth's problem that all the planets in our solar system are warming because of the sun. What i got from that was that the sun is expanding or getting hotter and we can't do nothing about it. Any validity in what Pat Robertson is saying???
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Message 601471 - Posted: 10 Jul 2007, 21:53:57 UTC - in response to Message 601431.

http://www.patrobertson.com/. Speaking of religion, just who is Pat Robertson to act like an expert on global warming? He's not a scientist. He's an evangelist. My religious beliefs aside, let's keep the critics of this idea that humanity is causing a rapid increase in global warming to the scientific circle.

(Note: to the forum cleaners, you will see from the opening post by the thread author that he has connected it to the solar system.)



Well Mars is too going through a warming phase (measured at least). If this is merely due to enhanced measuring techniques, I don't know.. but it is worth noting.


Everyone and their mothers have been commenting on global warming (you and I included) and an Earth Sciences major I am not... but I don't think it fair of you or anyone to limit "who" can speak on such subjects.

I mean, after all, what makes the "media elite" any more an expert on global warming and politics than Pat Robertson?


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Message 601522 - Posted: 10 Jul 2007, 23:19:56 UTC - in response to Message 601471.

Well Mars is too going through a warming phase (measured at least). If this is merely due to enhanced measuring techniques, I don't know.. but it is worth noting.

Yes indeed...

But just look at the NUMBERS...

There is a vast difference between the rates/differences seen.


We might be a long way away from the Venus effect, but we are trying very hard to get there very very fast.

Happy cooking! :-(

Regards,
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Message 601528 - Posted: 10 Jul 2007, 23:30:02 UTC - in response to Message 601522.

Well Mars is too going through a warming phase (measured at least). If this is merely due to enhanced measuring techniques, I don't know.. but it is worth noting.

Yes indeed...

But just look at the NUMBERS...

There is a vast difference between the rates/differences seen.


We might be a long way away from the Venus effect, but we are trying very hard to get there very very fast.

Happy cooking! :-(

Regards,
Martin


OK fair enough, but is their a distance relative difference in a percentage here? (e.g., venus is at 0 and lets say a 100%, Earth is 1.5 distance and warming at X, Mars is at 4 distance and warming at .x)

all things relative to their respective distances, and exposure.

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Message 601586 - Posted: 11 Jul 2007, 3:30:45 UTC
Last modified: 11 Jul 2007, 3:35:22 UTC

BBC News: 'No sun link' to climate change

Relative solar intensities:

Distance AU Intensity (%) Mercury 0.387 668 Venus 0.723 191.3 Earth 1.000 100.0 Mars 1.524 43.1 Jupiter 5.203 3.69 Saturn 9.539 1.10 Uranus 19.189 0.272 Neptune 30.060 0.111 Pluto 39.439 0.064

50% of the population think that scientists still aren't sure about the causes of GW, but the fact is that virtually all scientists are sure that GW is caused by human activity.

A little disinformation and doubt goes a long way to confuse the ignorant, who aren't capable of analyzing the data, facts or the logic for themselves.

It is futile sticking one's head in the sand while continuing to rape the environment as we've always done for short term profit/comfort/convenience.
GW is happening and getting worse, affecting peoples' lives now.

In the last blink of a cosmic eye, this human mould is consuming and polluting and destroying its own petri-dish, and there are no second helpings.

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Message 601951 - Posted: 11 Jul 2007, 20:01:32 UTC - in response to Message 601471.

http://www.patrobertson.com/. Speaking of religion, just who is Pat Robertson to act like an expert on global warming? He's not a scientist. He's an evangelist. My religious beliefs aside, let's keep the critics of this idea that humanity is causing a rapid increase in global warming to the scientific circle.

(Note: to the forum cleaners, you will see from the opening post by the thread author that he has connected it to the solar system.)



Well Mars is too going through a warming phase (measured at least). If this is merely due to enhanced measuring techniques, I don't know.. but it is worth noting.


Everyone and their mothers have been commenting on global warming (you and I included) and an Earth Sciences major I am not... but I don't think it fair of you or anyone to limit "who" can speak on such subjects.

I mean, after all, what makes the "media elite" any more an expert on global warming and politics than Pat Robertson?



They are no more experts and have as much of an agenda as Pat Robertson does, so they are equally suspect.
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Message 601972 - Posted: 11 Jul 2007, 20:28:16 UTC - in response to Message 601586.

50% of the population think that scientists still aren't sure about the causes of GW, but the fact is that virtually all scientists are sure that GW is caused by human activity.

A little disinformation and doubt goes a long way to confuse the ignorant, who aren't capable of analyzing the data, facts or the logic for themselves.

It is futile sticking one's head in the sand while continuing to rape the environment as we've always done for short term profit/comfort/convenience.
GW is happening and getting worse, affecting peoples' lives now.

In the last blink of a cosmic eye, this human mould is consuming and polluting and destroying its own petri-dish, and there are no second helpings.


There are many variables that could lead to global warming.
You can’t instantly blame humans before all these other variables are eliminated. Without monitoring these for millions of years we will not and can not know whether its humans or its natural.

-Volcano's erupting more dust on the glaciers making them darker/melt faster (NASA's top man suggested this and was fired the next week funnily enough!)
-Sun emitting more light/infrared/other
-Humans emitting more heat. (Maybe CO2 and such gasses have nothing to do with it, could we just be creating more heat than before?)
- Could the earth’s core be emitting more heat? (Natural cycle or human caused?)
- Ozone disappearance (More UV rays more heat) (Is the ozone returning to what it used to be or is it disappearing due to other causes? Humans used to have Ozone creators in houses pumping lots more Ozone into the atmosphere)
- Unknown factor from unknown source. Humans know nothing on a scale of 1-10 (Other dimensions causing this?)

This only scratches the surface of the possibilities that are out there which all could be having an effect on global warming.

On a side note a glacier expert in Greenland has stated that we have about 3x as much ice now as we did when the Vikings were around.

Don't assume its Humans until we know for absolute FACT that we are the cause.

On a second side note some of these environmentally friendly ideas are to laugh at. (Hydrogen powered cars use twice as much energy as gas powered cars. This in turn produces more heat.)

Please don’t assume until we know.
The media has had a great time blaming everyone and saying how great/bad governments are with global warming. There are potentially more important things than global warming if it is only natural.

~BoB

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Message 601989 - Posted: 11 Jul 2007, 20:54:05 UTC - in response to Message 601972.

50% of the population think that scientists still aren't sure about the causes of GW, but the fact is that virtually all scientists are sure that GW is caused by human activity.

A little disinformation and doubt goes a long way to confuse the ignorant, who aren't capable of analyzing the data, facts or the logic for themselves.

It is futile sticking one's head in the sand while continuing to rape the environment as we've always done for short term profit/comfort/convenience.
GW is happening and getting worse, affecting peoples' lives now.

In the last blink of a cosmic eye, this human mould is consuming and polluting and destroying its own petri-dish, and there are no second helpings.


There are many variables that could lead to global warming.
You can’t instantly blame humans before all these other variables are eliminated. Without monitoring these for millions of years we will not and can not know whether its humans or its natural.

-Volcano's erupting more dust on the glaciers making them darker/melt faster (NASA's top man suggested this and was fired the next week funnily enough!)
-Sun emitting more light/infrared/other
-Humans emitting more heat. (Maybe CO2 and such gasses have nothing to do with it, could we just be creating more heat than before?)
- Could the earth’s core be emitting more heat? (Natural cycle or human caused?)
- Ozone disappearance (More UV rays more heat) (Is the ozone returning to what it used to be or is it disappearing due to other causes? Humans used to have Ozone creators in houses pumping lots more Ozone into the atmosphere)
- Unknown factor from unknown source. Humans know nothing on a scale of 1-10 (Other dimensions causing this?)

This only scratches the surface of the possibilities that are out there which all could be having an effect on global warming.

On a side note a glacier expert in Greenland has stated that we have about 3x as much ice now as we did when the Vikings were around.

Don't assume its Humans until we know for absolute FACT that we are the cause.

On a second side note some of these environmentally friendly ideas are to laugh at. (Hydrogen powered cars use twice as much energy as gas powered cars. This in turn produces more heat.)

Please don’t assume until we know.
The media has had a great time blaming everyone and saying how great/bad governments are with global warming. There are potentially more important things than global warming if it is only natural.

~BoB

Fact. CO2 levels have broken out of natural cycles.
Fact. The sun has been shown to account for some of the warming that has occurred, but not all of it (less than 50% in fact).
Fact. We are pumping over 15 billion tonnes of CO2 in to the atmosphere every year and it is increasing every year.
Fact. We are cutting more trees down every year than are being replanted.
Fact. Global and local weather patterns are getting more extreme. (Floods, heat waves, cold snaps)
Fact. Climate change is real.
Fact. 99% of climatologists believe climate change is man made!
Fact. The nay sayers get significantly more media attention than their relative proportion.
Fact. It goes against the big business model for climate change to be real.

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Message 602002 - Posted: 11 Jul 2007, 21:10:32 UTC - in response to Message 601989.

50% of the population think that scientists still aren't sure about the causes of GW, but the fact is that virtually all scientists are sure that GW is caused by human activity.

A little disinformation and doubt goes a long way to confuse the ignorant, who aren't capable of analyzing the data, facts or the logic for themselves.

It is futile sticking one's head in the sand while continuing to rape the environment as we've always done for short term profit/comfort/convenience.
GW is happening and getting worse, affecting peoples' lives now.

In the last blink of a cosmic eye, this human mould is consuming and polluting and destroying its own petri-dish, and there are no second helpings.


There are many variables that could lead to global warming.
You can’t instantly blame humans before all these other variables are eliminated. Without monitoring these for millions of years we will not and can not know whether its humans or its natural.

-Volcano's erupting more dust on the glaciers making them darker/melt faster (NASA's top man suggested this and was fired the next week funnily enough!)
-Sun emitting more light/infrared/other
-Humans emitting more heat. (Maybe CO2 and such gasses have nothing to do with it, could we just be creating more heat than before?)
- Could the earth’s core be emitting more heat? (Natural cycle or human caused?)
- Ozone disappearance (More UV rays more heat) (Is the ozone returning to what it used to be or is it disappearing due to other causes? Humans used to have Ozone creators in houses pumping lots more Ozone into the atmosphere)
- Unknown factor from unknown source. Humans know nothing on a scale of 1-10 (Other dimensions causing this?)

This only scratches the surface of the possibilities that are out there which all could be having an effect on global warming.

On a side note a glacier expert in Greenland has stated that we have about 3x as much ice now as we did when the Vikings were around.

Don't assume its Humans until we know for absolute FACT that we are the cause.

On a second side note some of these environmentally friendly ideas are to laugh at. (Hydrogen powered cars use twice as much energy as gas powered cars. This in turn produces more heat.)

Please don’t assume until we know.
The media has had a great time blaming everyone and saying how great/bad governments are with global warming. There are potentially more important things than global warming if it is only natural.

~BoB

Fact. CO2 levels have broken out of natural cycles.
Fact. The sun has been shown to account for some of the warming that has occurred, but not all of it (less than 50% in fact).
Fact. We are pumping over 15 billion tonnes of CO2 in to the atmosphere every year and it is increasing every year.
Fact. We are cutting more trees down every year than are being replanted.
Fact. Global and local weather patterns are getting more extreme. (Floods, heat waves, cold snaps)
Fact. Climate change is real.
Fact. 99% of climatologists believe climate change is man made!
Fact. The nay sayers get significantly more media attention than their relative proportion.
Fact. It goes against the big business model for climate change to be real.


Fact. CO2 has yet to be proven a major cause of global warming.
Fact. More CO2 was in the atmosphere in the age of coal burning than there is now.

CO2 levels may be out of recent natural levels but are they out of natural levels from other eras?

Indeed climate change is real. The question is...
Is it natural or Man made?
We can not answer this question yet.
We do not have data from billions of years ago to compare to so we can not know if it is natural or man made.

Those who believe everything the media/government is saying will instantly jump to the conclusion of yes its man made but they CAN NOT and WILL NOT know for many years whether it is man or nature.

~BoB

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Message 602165 - Posted: 12 Jul 2007, 3:48:12 UTC - in response to Message 602002.


Fact. CO2 has yet to be proven a major cause of global warming.
Fact. More CO2 was in the atmosphere in the age of coal burning than there is now.

Citations?
Some of that CO2 has been absorbed into the oceans, which will re-release it as they warm up.


CO2 levels may be out of recent natural levels but are they out of natural levels from other eras?

What eras? We know in the very distant past that Earth was uninhabitable, and became suitable for the forms of life that lived then, and died out, and replaced by other lifeforms that could adapt through all of the variable conditions and cycles that Nature imposed.
Only the last few million years are relevant to the lifeform that exist (briefly!) today, and CO2 levels are much much higher now than at any time over the last million years, and rocketing upwards.


Indeed climate change is real. The question is...
Is it natural or Man made?
We can not answer this question yet.


This has been answered, and accepted in the IPCC Report, which is extremely conservative subject to pressure from developing countries to tone down the conclusions.
The graph of CO2 levels over that last million years shows undulating changes, then you get to the last few years and it looks like a vertical spike, well above anything before and obviously an anomaly.

Over the last century medical advances have caused the population to quadruple. Half of the worlds oil has been converted to CO2, locked up over 100,000,000 years and released in this century. In the last few decades average temperatures have shot up anomalously. This is having consequences and we are experiencing them.
You plot all these on a graph together and you see that they are coincident, and CO2 is the main factor.

You might find it difficult to accept the role that CO2 plays in limiting the heat escaping the Earth, but that won't change the fact that it does.


We do not have data from billions of years ago to compare to so we can not know if it is natural or man made.

That is largely irrelevant now as the Earth was practically a different planet.


Those who believe everything the media/government is saying will instantly jump to the conclusion of yes its man made but they CAN NOT and WILL NOT know for many years whether it is man or nature.


Media want to make money by selling stories that sell. Truth and science is often a casualty to get readership.
Governments want to stay in power. They will not make unpopular decisions unless the are dragged kicking and screaming to the evidence where it can then bop them on the nose.
People are lazy and selfish things, driven to consume and survive at any cost. They want to make money for security, keep warm (or cool), go to work, eat, raise families, buy nice things, gadgets and labour-saving devices, go on holidays, spend and have fun, drive to nice places and defaecate. All of this has a cost, and when multiplied by 6 billion times, has a very LARGE cost.

Do a course in physics, chemistry, geology, astrophysics, climatology and understand for yourself. Read Scientific American, Nature, New Scientist, National Geographic, as well as good sites like the BBC.

Science does not lie.

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Message 602438 - Posted: 12 Jul 2007, 18:37:21 UTC

I think that global warming and pollution is caused by the fact that people in general are having too many goddamn children. When I see a 25-year-old girl that's had five children I think she should be sterilized and put in jail. The young (and maybe not so young) men are to blame, too, and should also be sterilized and jailed. Each kid that's born today will want a car in 16 years, a house in 20 and more kids of his/her own. This kind of stuff's not regulated enough. When somebody has that fifth (or more) child, he/she is congratulated. That image should be reversed, just like smoking was. I've heard somewhere that the Supreme Being said "Be fruitful and multiply." We've already done that 60 times in the last 2,000 years. Isn't that enough?
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Message 602455 - Posted: 12 Jul 2007, 19:13:44 UTC - in response to Message 602438.
Last modified: 12 Jul 2007, 19:19:38 UTC

Sterilized and jailed? You scare me with Gestapo attitudes like that.
You cannot generalise and prejudge everyone on the basis of someone you know, or what selected stories you may read. They are only tiny tiny samples.

Birth rates (per 1000) are actually decreasing in the West with pressures of modern life, starting families later and decreasing fertility due to pollution/genetic damage. In other areas I believe it is largely unchanged, but there is pressure in India/China as new found affluence gives more people security as a result of US/Europe outsourcing production (and relocating their pollution!)

Also people are living much longer because of better nutrition/medical advances.
The population will stabilize when births==deaths, and GW will eventually force a population contraction.

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Message 602489 - Posted: 12 Jul 2007, 20:27:08 UTC - in response to Message 602438.

I think that global warming and pollution is caused by the fact that people in general are having too many goddamn children. When I see a 25-year-old girl that's had five children I think she should be sterilized and put in jail. The young (and maybe not so young) men are to blame, too, and should also be sterilized and jailed. Each kid that's born today will want a car in 16 years, a house in 20 and more kids of his/her own. This kind of stuff's not regulated enough. When somebody has that fifth (or more) child, he/she is congratulated. That image should be reversed, just like smoking was. I've heard somewhere that the Supreme Being said "Be fruitful and multiply." We've already done that 60 times in the last 2,000 years. Isn't that enough?

It's a bit of an extreme view this, but yes, the argument that the world is overpopulated does come up again and again. Not too long ago I met a scientist who was looking into Climate Change back in the 1970's, but even then overpopulation in parts of the world where they couldn't feed themselves was more of a major concern for the scientists. But then Aids happened and the scientists very privately breathed a sigh of relief; the population problem in Africa was solved.

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Message 606135 - Posted: 19 Jul 2007, 21:43:03 UTC
Last modified: 19 Jul 2007, 21:43:19 UTC

Climate trail goes cold at sun?
Warming concerns not linked to star

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Message 606950 - Posted: 21 Jul 2007, 12:50:57 UTC - in response to Message 602438.
Last modified: 21 Jul 2007, 13:02:34 UTC

When I see a 25-year-old girl that's had five children I think she should be sterilized and put in jail. The young (and maybe not so young) men are to blame, too, and should also be sterilized and jailed.


LMAO! A bit extreme, but it was a funny read I'll tell you that.

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Message 607336 - Posted: 21 Jul 2007, 21:40:59 UTC - in response to Message 602438.

I think that global warming and pollution is caused by the fact that people in general are having too many goddamn children. When I see a 25-year-old girl that's had five children I think she should be sterilized and put in jail. The young (and maybe not so young) men are to blame, too, and should also be sterilized and jailed. Each kid that's born today will want a car in 16 years, a house in 20 and more kids of his/her own. This kind of stuff's not regulated enough. When somebody has that fifth (or more) child, he/she is congratulated. That image should be reversed, just like smoking was. I've heard somewhere that the Supreme Being said "Be fruitful and multiply." We've already done that 60 times in the last 2,000 years. Isn't that enough?

Nope. According to what I read on several sources, the Earth has enough resources to feed twice it's nowadays population - the resources only have to be shared the right way. And about cars: if car-sharing were popular, you wouldn't need a car for everyone.
A nation needs as much as 2 children per family to keep the population on an equal level, more than 2 to let the population grow. Most nations in the Western hemisphere have statistically only 1.25 to 1.4 children per family. So why should families not be encouraged and supported to bring new life into this world, to let the nation grow again? There are too many childless families and childless singles everywhere around!

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Message 607781 - Posted: 23 Jul 2007, 18:12:54 UTC

Well, the overall population is continuing to grow. There may be certain countries whose population is declining a little. But what's wrong with that? Too many people mean pollution and deforestation. This may be causing global warming, too. Here, in the US, the population continues to grow, mostly because of the immigrants, illegal and legal. If the kid's not here it's not necessary to watch out for its welfare. Everywhere in this country there's incessant development that takes away the trees, replaces them with asphalt and wrecks the environment.
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Message 608417 - Posted: 25 Jul 2007, 11:45:47 UTC - in response to Message 607781.
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Well, the overall population is continuing to grow. There may be certain countries whose population is declining a little. But what's wrong with that?
Well how far shall it go? Imagine for example my former home-town: 316,776 citizens in 1990; 237,198 citicens in 2005; official statistical forecast for 2020: 195,149 citizens...

Too many people mean pollution and deforestation. This may be causing global warming, too.
No. not necessarily. Make people pollute less - and especially make the industry pollute less, since they are producing the main sources of the pollution: one-way packages, throwaway products; low quality stuff so when it`s broken you have to throw it away and buy a new one.
deforestation is mainly because of 1)the huge mono-culture fields or meadows enforced by companies - and too little planting of new trees; 2) today almost nothing really needs to be made out of real wood. especially tropical wood.
You can gather the brushwood, or take the sick or dead trees when you need wood only for burning.
AFAIK, to avoid deforestation it's needed to plant at least 10 young trees for every old tree taken. It's not the population, it's the irresponsible way we people, and especially the industry(!) treats Nature. People rape Mother Nature just for making money.

Here, in the US, the population continues to grow, mostly because of the immigrants, illegal and legal.
If the kid's not here it's not necessary to watch out for its welfare.

LOL! Here in Germany, the population decreases despite of immigration. In 2005 Germany had 0.1% less people than 5 years before - though the number of immigrants has risen! And at least 10% (7.4 millions) of the entire German population already are officially Alien Residents (okay we don't give babies born here in Germany automatically the German citizenship, so there are a lot alien residents of the 2nd and 3rd generation). But without children there is no future, no growth.

Everywhere in this country there's incessant development that takes away the trees, replaces them with asphalt and wrecks the environment.

see my reply to the second part: It's mainly the industry, the Big Business, which destroys nature.
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Message 608510 - Posted: 25 Jul 2007, 18:06:18 UTC

City population often shrinks because the people that live in the city move to outside the city limits into developments made by the moneyhungry developers. They turn forestland and farmland into asphalt, buildings, roads and houses. The roads are often clogged so much that it would be faster to walk or ride a bike. Bikeriding, especially, is dangerous, and it's not pleasant if it's raining or there's ice on the road. (Of course one could design a four-wheel, enclosed, streamlined bike (really quadricycle), perhaps with a storage wheel which would smooth out hills.)
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Message 608556 - Posted: 25 Jul 2007, 20:00:01 UTC - in response to Message 608510.

...(Of course one could design a four-wheel, enclosed, streamlined bike (really quadricycle), perhaps with a storage wheel which would smooth out hills.)

There's a nice idea.

There are already various 'battery assisted' bikes that can hit 30mph and almost pull wheelspins.

Then again, there was the Clive Sinclair "Zike" that came to not very much...

Mmmmm...?

Keep searchin',
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