Forum Decorum (May 21 2007)


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Profile KevinDouglasPhD
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Message 573131 - Posted: 21 May 2007, 20:07:46 UTC

This is less of a technical update than a request for some patience and understanding. Matt should be back from his short vacation tomorrow and he'll be able to give a much better explanation of what's been going on behind the scenes here than I possibly could.

From what I've been able to gather (mainly eavesdropping on Eric's phone conversations next door), bruno had some problem with a fiber/channel/RAID thingy (I'm an astronomer, not a computer guy) over the weekend. Also thumper had to be rebooted this morning. Eric and Jeff are on top of everything, and I'm sure at our group meeting we'll have a thorough post-mortem on this mess (assuming the mess is overwith by then). So take a deep breath, and sit tight. Or better yet go for a walk. You could use the exercise.

Criticisms and debate over the management of this project are healthy, in my opinion, and I don't want to discourage it, except to say that personal slights and misrepresentations of opinions as "facts" are not really welcome. Are we short-staffed? Maybe. Are we lacking in technical know-how? Doubtful. Do we think volunteers should know what's going on? Absolutely. Can we live up to everyone's expectations? Apparently not. But I don't think SUN and others (individuals or companies) would be supporting us the way they are, if they thought we were doing a bad job.

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Message 573149 - Posted: 21 May 2007, 20:37:03 UTC - in response to Message 573131.

.....bruno had some problem with a fiber/channel/RAID thingy (I'm an astronomer, not a computer guy) over the weekend.....



I hate when my fiber/channel/RAID "thingy" has problems :)

The guys are doing yeoman service and I've got no problem waiting until things settle down.


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Message 573166 - Posted: 21 May 2007, 20:55:50 UTC - in response to Message 573131.



Criticisms and debate over the management of this project are healthy, in my opinion, and I don't want to discourage it, except to say that personal slights and misrepresentations of opinions as "facts" are not really welcome.



In this very moment I can see that
Upload is going, Download too, update request
are working (if I rename app_info.xml )

I don't know if theese are facts or opinions ... but
it is working, for hosts that I can directly manage.

For far hosts I hope that guys in berkeley will
soon find a stable solution without renaming
file or something like that.

Bye,
Franz

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Message 573185 - Posted: 21 May 2007, 21:14:06 UTC

Thank you for the update, Kevin. IMO, the lack of updates is part of the mounting frustration problem with a lot of folks, including me. Even though you are a scientist and not a "computer guy", you posting information such as this helps the project as a whole in that we crunching donators see that at least someone is on the job trying to get things running again. And with you posting up the info, it keeps the computer guys from having to take time away from fixing the problem to post info up here for us to read. I know that a lot of insinuations were posted in other threads and some of the posts went way too far, but they did insinuate a valid point. I am pretty new to the Seti project, having started about a year ago. But from what I gather, this Thumper croaking thing is the biggest problem Seti has had in years and it took a while to get Thumper II installed and running. And from what I have read here it sounds like some new server code broke a lot more stuff right around the time that Thumper went belly up too, which is making recovery much harder. But to me at least, it seems that you guys have a kind of "so what" attitude about the servers going wonky during the weekend (and this being the first weekend with Thumper II online too) and with Matt taking vacation with all that's happening too. Of course, Matt just might not have been able to reschedule his vacation due to timing or finances and I can understand that, but it seems to me that you guys kind of dropped the ball on support of the servers this last weekend. In normal times this probably wouldn't be an issue but you all are trying to get the project back up and running after a very protracted and hectic series of calamities and someone with the knowhow should have been on call to look into problems through this last weekend. And I would suggest that for the next few weekends it would be a good idea to have someone close by to look into problems too. The sooner you guys can sort out the problems you are running into and the longer that you can keep uploads and downloads coming and going, the sooner the project will get on a more even keel and then everyone can kick back and relax and watch football or racing or do whatever they want on the weekend.

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Message 573197 - Posted: 21 May 2007, 21:23:30 UTC - in response to Message 573149.

"thingy" has problems :)


I'm not going to be happy if I have problems with my "thingy"


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Message 573221 - Posted: 21 May 2007, 21:48:02 UTC - in response to Message 573185.

Of course, Matt just might not have been able to reschedule his vacation...


Indeed, asking his friend to reschedule his wedding would be a little out of order, wouldn't it? Especially when the groom will be kicking off a tour in support of a new album within the week. (Hope Matt doesn't chastize me for spilling this insider info :)

There's no such thing as a "so what" attitude amongst the SETI guys. Maybe it's more like a quiet resignation to reality, ie. Murphy's Law. For some of us, getting here on the weekend is not so easy - either logistically or because of other commitments. But I can recall several times where the staff have come in during non-regular hours to fix things.

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Message 573226 - Posted: 21 May 2007, 21:50:06 UTC - in response to Message 573185.

But to me at least, it seems that you guys have a kind of "so what" attitude about the servers going wonky during the weekend (and this being the first weekend with Thumper II online too) and with Matt taking vacation with all that's happening too. Of course, Matt just might not have been able to reschedule his vacation due to timing or finances and I can understand that, but it seems to me that you guys kind of dropped the ball on support of the servers this last weekend.

We should review what SETI asks for, and what SETI promises:

SETI asks for "idle CPU cycles" -- it was designed to harness the computing power that was sitting on desktops in homes and businesses when the user was on the phone, or otherwise doing some light task.

SETI (and BOINC) are designed to harvest something that would otherwise go to waste.

SETI promises that sometimes they'll have work.

BOINC is designed so you can crunch for more than one project, and so that when one project runs dry, your computer will have work from the other projects.
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Message 573246 - Posted: 21 May 2007, 22:06:34 UTC - in response to Message 573166.
Last modified: 21 May 2007, 22:09:51 UTC

Just a little warning

I see a lot of "waiting to run" in my memory
and a lot of task in the process tab of task manager.

Some are "low priority" as usual but some (stopped)
are in "normal" and "real time" priority.

In a dual core I have 6 task open,
two running at "min" and others stopped
but "normal" or "Real time".
In the same host 14 task are "waiting to run" in the boinc task window and other 2 are running.

It's the first time I see this but
I have read some similar in the forum in
past days.

Bze,
Frany
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Message 573270 - Posted: 21 May 2007, 22:26:19 UTC

From my point-of-view, you guys do a great job.

You got ambushed by a serie of problems/difficulties these last days, but life is life. I'm a volunter from the begining, so it's not some delays that will make me go away. Some are pretty upset, but they only see their little credits. They have no idea all the work you do. Take them with a grain of salt.

And you can take more time on the week-end for your self!
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Message 573274 - Posted: 21 May 2007, 22:33:55 UTC

Could someone take a minute to update the status board?

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Message 573281 - Posted: 21 May 2007, 22:42:11 UTC - in response to Message 573131.

This is less of a technical update than a request for some patience and understanding. Matt should be back from his short vacation tomorrow and he'll be able to give a much better explanation of what's been going on behind the scenes here than I possibly could.

From what I've been able to gather (mainly eavesdropping on Eric's phone conversations next door), bruno had some problem with a fiber/channel/RAID thingy (I'm an astronomer, not a computer guy) over the weekend. Also thumper had to be rebooted this morning. Eric and Jeff are on top of everything, and I'm sure at our group meeting we'll have a thorough post-mortem on this mess (assuming the mess is overwith by then). So take a deep breath, and sit tight. Or better yet go for a walk. You could use the exercise.

Criticisms and debate over the management of this project are healthy, in my opinion, and I don't want to discourage it, except to say that personal slights and misrepresentations of opinions as "facts" are not really welcome. Are we short-staffed? Maybe. Are we lacking in technical know-how? Doubtful. Do we think volunteers should know what's going on? Absolutely. Can we live up to everyone's expectations? Apparently not. But I don't think SUN and others (individuals or companies) would be supporting us the way they are, if they thought we were doing a bad job.


Kevin, IMHO i think u guys (computer guys , science guys, astropulsar or whatever-kind-of-guys you are ... ) are making a good job, putting in the project the best effort you can.

Nothing strange in having a long-time planned marriage party more than 500 yards from computer room ..... fixing computers/routers/cables/disks can wait, brides cannot (usually ...)

And as we say in my country, more or less is "luck is blind, but bad luck has good eyes " ;)


M.

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Message 573298 - Posted: 21 May 2007, 23:13:24 UTC

I must apologize for my impatience. You guys are doing good cheers!
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Message 573334 - Posted: 21 May 2007, 23:55:46 UTC - in response to Message 573131.

Hi, there are few criticisms of you guys that I have seen. You're all doing a sterling job and have, from what I've seen, the support, trust and utmost respect of the vast majority of the crunchers. Keep up the excellent work and thanks for keeping us all informed as to whats up, down or thingy.
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Message 573352 - Posted: 22 May 2007, 0:09:35 UTC

I think everyone should just kind of mellow out. Compared to Old Seti, the current problems are relatively minor. To all the hard working staff and volunteers, thank you.

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Message 573378 - Posted: 22 May 2007, 0:32:04 UTC - in response to Message 573246.
Last modified: 22 May 2007, 1:02:46 UTC

Just a little warning

I see a lot of "waiting to run" in my memory
and a lot of task in the process tab of task manager.

Some are "low priority" as usual but some (stopped)
are in "normal" and "real time" priority.

In a dual core I have 6 task open,
two running at "min" and others stopped
but "normal" or "Real time".
In the same host 14 task are "waiting to run" in the boinc task window and other 2 are running.

It's the first time I see this but
I have read some similar in the forum in
past days.

Bze,
Frany


Hello Frany,
I hope I did get the idea of what made you wonder. As I understood your having multiple WUs beeing processed a short time then beeing stopped ?
Same here...
Maybe also in your case the WUs which are currently in progress have to be finished in a nearer future than the WUs which are supended.
It would be a feature and not a bug if BOINC starts working on urgent WUs even if these came to your queue after starting less urgent WUs.
At least that could be an explanation considering the outage, ghost WUs and abandoned WUs (reattaching to / reinstalling BOINC) that must have led to quite a mess in the database.

-------------------------------------------
Just an idea --- neither answer nor solution


//EDIT

For not staying off-topic:

Criticisms and debate over the management of this project are healthy...

..yeah..right..but it's a forum !
Even if - or especially if - you could turn lead to gold there would be a hole bunch of kiddies yelling they could do it better,
Discussion on technical aspects may reveal good ideas but why the hell should anybody judge the management? If you had a Berkeley-intern absolutims led by a little psychopathic dwarf that would be fine as long as you guys don't have that mentioned "so what" attitude.

Greetings,
Jade

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Message 573381 - Posted: 22 May 2007, 0:40:02 UTC
Last modified: 22 May 2007, 0:44:29 UTC

Thanks Kevin. Since Thumper initially crashed, you guys have done a great job blogging any news to us. Even posting you have no news to report.

But for a lot of people that is all they need to know is that there is nothing to report but you are aware of the problem.

None the less, you guys do excellent work and after all we are all here for one goal aren't we? Just remember, even in the ballpark you can here those 1 or 2 "Boo-Birds" among the 10 of thousands watching. We all hear them, but when you think of it they typically are the minority.

I can say for myself, the 30 seconds the project heads, admins and scientists take to jot a few words on issues, or even to say "Hey yes there is a problem, nothing to report but we are working on it" is all we need to know. You guys have been doing that and I myself appreciate the effort.

Thank You
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Message 573658 - Posted: 22 May 2007, 11:40:40 UTC - in response to Message 573226.

We should review what SETI asks for, and what SETI promises:

SETI asks for "idle CPU cycles" -- it was designed to harness the computing power that was sitting on desktops in homes and businesses when the user was on the phone, or otherwise doing some light task.

SETI (and BOINC) are designed to harvest something that would otherwise go to waste.

SETI promises that sometimes they'll have work.

BOINC is designed so you can crunch for more than one project, and so that when one project runs dry, your computer will have work from the other projects.


Exactly, well put. Seti was never designed for people with multiple high power machines running 24/7, whose main interest seems to be in league tables, rather than the science. The fact that these crunchers exist does help Seti to process more work, but if it is resulting in project scientists spending more time in keeping servers running, then analysing the results, then we're veering off on an unplanned path.

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Message 573679 - Posted: 22 May 2007, 12:21:11 UTC - in response to Message 573378.

Just a little warning

I see a lot of "waiting to run" in my memory
and a lot of task in the process tab of task manager.

Some are "low priority" as usual but some (stopped)
are in "normal" and "real time" priority.

In a dual core I have 6 task open,
two running at "min" and others stopped
but "normal" or "Real time".
In the same host 14 task are "waiting to run" in the boinc task window and other 2 are running.

It's the first time I see this but
I have read some similar in the forum in
past days.

Bze,
Frany


Hello Frany,
I hope I did get the idea of what made you wonder. As I understood your having multiple WUs beeing processed a short time then beeing stopped ?
Same here...
Maybe also in your case the WUs which are currently in progress have to be finished in a nearer future than the WUs which are supended.
It would be a feature and not a bug if BOINC starts working on urgent WUs even if these came to your queue after starting less urgent WUs.
At least that could be an explanation considering the outage, ghost WUs and abandoned WUs (reattaching to / reinstalling BOINC) that must have led to quite a mess in the database.

-------------------------------------------
Just an idea --- neither answer nor solution


//EDIT

For not staying off-topic:

Criticisms and debate over the management of this project are healthy...

..yeah..right..but it's a forum !
Even if - or especially if - you could turn lead to gold there would be a hole bunch of kiddies yelling they could do it better,
Discussion on technical aspects may reveal good ideas but why the hell should anybody judge the management? If you had a Berkeley-intern absolutims led by a little psychopathic dwarf that would be fine as long as you guys don't have that mentioned "so what" attitude.

Greetings,
Jade


[irony] It can always be worse, I know of a certain scientific program that is run by a psycopathic bald body-building composer with his pants glued on with cooling paste [/irony]

Carl
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Message 573680 - Posted: 22 May 2007, 12:23:56 UTC


Thank You Kevin . . . Sincerely


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Message 573808 - Posted: 22 May 2007, 14:45:17 UTC - in response to Message 573226.

But to me at least, it seems that you guys have a kind of "so what" attitude about the servers going wonky during the weekend (and this being the first weekend with Thumper II online too) and with Matt taking vacation with all that's happening too. Of course, Matt just might not have been able to reschedule his vacation due to timing or finances and I can understand that, but it seems to me that you guys kind of dropped the ball on support of the servers this last weekend.

We should review what SETI asks for, and what SETI promises:

SETI asks for "idle CPU cycles" -- it was designed to harness the computing power that was sitting on desktops in homes and businesses when the user was on the phone, or otherwise doing some light task.

SETI (and BOINC) are designed to harvest something that would otherwise go to waste.

SETI promises that sometimes they'll have work.

BOINC is designed so you can crunch for more than one project, and so that when one project runs dry, your computer will have work from the other projects.



Exactly! I do not understand why anyone would think that the staff would not be concerned about the project. We all have lives outside of SETI and have a right to live it. This isn't a race to see who gets the most WU credits. It is a way to help find ET communications.

My two cents.
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