More Thoughts on the Middle East


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Profile Beethoven
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Message 505255 - Posted: 19 Jan 2007, 2:13:16 UTC
Last modified: 19 Jan 2007, 2:14:40 UTC

"The truth is that the Palestinians don’t really want or need a state. They don’t care if they live under Jordanian, Syrian or self rule; they just want the Jews gone."

That comment from correspondent Jimmy Hagarty perfectly summaries the conflict between Jew and Arab in the Middle East. Whether in the 60 years since Israel was founded, or the years before then when Jews were a minority, nothing has changed.

What are now known as the West Bank and Gaza — from between 1948 and 1967 — were once under Jordanian and Egyptian rule, respectively. There was no Palestinian uprising against the "occupation", nor were there demands for a Palestinian state.

Anyone who seriously believes Israel is an artificial colonial implant in a land that truly belongs to the Arabs is getting their facts wrong. History buffs know very well that the land never "belonged" to the Arabs per se, unless you wish to discount the tenure of the British Mandate, the Ottoman Empire, the Crusaders, the Mamelukes, the Romans, the Israelites and a myriad of Biblical peoples long gone.

For Arabs to say the land was and is theirs, is equivalent to a tenant claiming ownership as his rightful due for a life of rent-paying.



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Message 505258 - Posted: 19 Jan 2007, 2:17:25 UTC
Last modified: 19 Jan 2007, 2:18:36 UTC

I think I'd better ask the Romans first, but in the mean time I'm heading for the nearest bomb shelter...this thread is going to explode.

Good luck to all and may Ba'al protect you...
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Message 505345 - Posted: 19 Jan 2007, 5:52:34 UTC

Both Israelis and Palestinians teach their children to hate the other side. Until this state of intollerant thinking stops, the body count will continue to rise and there will be no peace.

Out of curiosity, why would you want to throw a grenade like this one in here, Beethoven?

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Message 505519 - Posted: 19 Jan 2007, 15:45:33 UTC

IMHO it has no relevance anyways. Look at former Yugoslavia, the former USSR, heck even the former Czechoslovakia. A ethnic nation that chooses so should be allowed to form their own country. That's the only way for peace - not only in the ME. One day the small countries might choose to reunite or apply to be part of a Union - like it happens in Europe (EU). Czechoslovakia seperated, but the Czech and Slovak Republic are in the EU. And in a few years even all the nations from former Yugoslavia might join the EU.

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Message 505522 - Posted: 19 Jan 2007, 15:53:07 UTC - in response to Message 505255.
Last modified: 19 Jan 2007, 15:53:20 UTC

"The truth is that the Palestinians don’t really want or need a state. They don’t care if they live under Jordanian, Syrian or self rule; they just want the Jews gone."



Thats not new for me.
The main matter is. Both want Jerusalem as there own Capital City. But as a german, i MUST see this neutral.
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Message 505661 - Posted: 20 Jan 2007, 0:13:09 UTC - in response to Message 505345.

Out of curiosity, why would you want to throw a grenade like this one in here, Beethoven?

Political propaganda? ;)
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Message 505666 - Posted: 20 Jan 2007, 0:49:11 UTC - in response to Message 505345.

Both Israelis and Palestinians teach their children to hate the other side. Until this state of intollerant thinking stops, the body count will continue to rise and there will be no peace.

Out of curiosity, why would you want to throw a grenade like this one in here, Beethoven?

Grenade? That's putting it far too strongly, I think. Reviving a debate is really what it is. Anything wrong with that?

My main reason for doing it, is that Israel has gotten the short end on the forums here, and I thought I should speak up about it.

I don't see any rabid or outrageous response to it, so far. :)
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Message 505670 - Posted: 20 Jan 2007, 0:54:50 UTC

I didn't say you had pulled the pin.

Profile Beethoven
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Message 505671 - Posted: 20 Jan 2007, 0:55:23 UTC - in response to Message 505519.

IMHO it has no relevance anyways. Look at former Yugoslavia, the former USSR, heck even the former Czechoslovakia. A ethnic nation that chooses so should be allowed to form their own country. That's the only way for peace - not only in the ME. One day the small countries might choose to reunite or apply to be part of a Union - like it happens in Europe (EU). Czechoslovakia seperated, but the Czech and Slovak Republic are in the EU. And in a few years even all the nations from former Yugoslavia might join the EU.

Not surprisingly, I disagree with you. It may seem to bring peace in the short term, but by and large, there are more wars and border clashes amongst small nations of different ethnic and cultural makeups. In the EU, the Balkans have always been a source of trouble; they didn't call it the "Balkan Powderkeg" for nothing before WWI. I grant you Czechoslovakia, but that's thanks to their Nobel prizewinning President Havel, so I consider it an exception to the rule.

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Message 505672 - Posted: 20 Jan 2007, 0:55:52 UTC - in response to Message 505670.

I didn't say you had pulled the pin.

LOL

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Message 506717 - Posted: 21 Jan 2007, 20:47:27 UTC - in response to Message 505522.

"The truth is that the Palestinians don’t really want or need a state. They don’t care if they live under Jordanian, Syrian or self rule; they just want the Jews gone."



Thats not new for me.
The main matter is. Both want Jerusalem as there own Capital City. But as a german, i MUST see this neutral.


I think that Champ is right on target about the crux of the problem, both Israel and Palestine wanting Jerusalem as their capital. Neither would be happy with the other having full control of Jerusalem, but I'm not sure either would be willing to accept a joint rule of Jerusalem. In the long term, if there is a long peace, then the only solution I see for Jerusalem, is that it is a special territory with open access to both Israelis and Palestinians. It could serve as the capital for both countries. For governing of the city itself, it would need its own city counsel and governor, similar to Washington DC. People living in the city would have to claim their nationality as either Israeli or Palestinian so they don't have political sway in both national governments.

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Message 506886 - Posted: 22 Jan 2007, 1:53:39 UTC

There may be another aspect to the Middle East problem. These thoughts are based on notes I took quite some time back on a programme about the Middle East conflict. I hope they are still relevant and reasonably accurate.

A major part of the battle ground in this century will be over water in the Middle East. It is one of the most arid parts of the world. Israel, however, leads the world in dry land irrigation technology, transforming parts of the desert into agricultural land where fruit is grown for export, i.e. avocados, melons, grapes, etc.
Israel uses nearly 80% of its water on agriculture. Most of the water comes from underground lakes called 'Aquefas' and competition for this is fierce.
The West Bank aquefa runs from East to West and one third of Israel's water derives from this source. Israel built settlements here to maintain control of this water supply as well as the land.
As a result, Israel has not only modern irrigation but running water in homes. By contrast, many Palestinian farmers must rely on primitive irrigation and many Palestinian towns rely on water tankers in the streets for their water supply.
Whether some of these circumstances have changed now I do not know. Also as we already know, Israel has recently given up some of her territories; not that this has made life any easier, it seems, for Israeli citizens.
Whatever the problems over water supply, it seems likely to me that water will be one of the major causes for conflict in the 21st century, particularly since fresh water is supposed to become more scarce in the future for people throughout the world.
As a result, I cannot see things getting any better for the Israelis. Only worse.

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Message 506981 - Posted: 22 Jan 2007, 6:21:42 UTC - in response to Message 506886.

There may be another aspect to the Middle East problem. These thoughts are based on notes I took quite some time back on a programme about the Middle East conflict. I hope they are still relevant and reasonably accurate.

A major part of the battle ground in this century will be over water in the Middle East. It is one of the most arid parts of the world. Israel, however, leads the world in dry land irrigation technology, transforming parts of the desert into agricultural land where fruit is grown for export, i.e. avocados, melons, grapes, etc.
Israel uses nearly 80% of its water on agriculture. Most of the water comes from underground lakes called 'Aquefas' and competition for this is fierce.
The West Bank aquefa runs from East to West and one third of Israel's water derives from this source. Israel built settlements here to maintain control of this water supply as well as the land.
As a result, Israel has not only modern irrigation but running water in homes. By contrast, many Palestinian farmers must rely on primitive irrigation and many Palestinian towns rely on water tankers in the streets for their water supply.
Whether some of these circumstances have changed now I do not know. Also as we already know, Israel has recently given up some of her territories; not that this has made life any easier, it seems, for Israeli citizens.
Whatever the problems over water supply, it seems likely to me that water will be one of the major causes for conflict in the 21st century, particularly since fresh water is supposed to become more scarce in the future for people throughout the world.
As a result, I cannot see things getting any better for the Israelis. Only worse.

There are three main sources of fresh water in Israel: Lake Kinneret, the Coastal Aquifer and the Mountain (Yarkon-Taninim) Aquifer. Lake Kinneret is above ground, the others are the standard layers of earth, gravel and porous stone that make up an aquifer. These resources can provide 600 to 800 million cubic meters of fresh water per year, which is used almost exclusively for non-agricultural consumption. The vast majority of agricultural water is derived from "grey water" sources, which are basically recycled sewage and the like. The lake and costal aquifer have some problems with salinity, sometimes to the point that water from those sources doesn't meet drinking water standards, making the mountain aquifer their most important water resource.

The Mountain (Yarkon-Taninim) Aquifer is the largest bone of contention due to its proximity to Palestine. The aquifer extends east of the Costal Aquifer from the slopes of Mt. Carmel to Beersheba, and from the crests of mountain ridges in Judea and Samaria to the coastal plain. What this means is that if Israel moves out of these areas and if Palestine were to allow sewage or industrial waste (or deliberate introduction of poison) to occur on the western slopes of Judea and Samaria, it would contaminate, probably permanently, the key source of drinking water for Israel's major urban centers and environs.

Israel has reached the maximum population size sustainable by the three main sources, but they are building water treatment plants as backup for Lake Kinnet and the Costal Aquifer. What they worry about most is deliberate sabatoge designed to deprive them of potable water.

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Message 507203 - Posted: 22 Jan 2007, 21:04:30 UTC

I may be missing something here ...
Could ANY of you please provide me with one shred of evidence that the area now known as Israel was the homeland of the Jews in the Middle East?
The argument provided by Beethoven is spurious ... since it refers in equal - if not greater measure to the Jews. There is NO country in the World today where you will not find a Jew. You could hardly say that for a Palestinian.
The essence of all of this diatribe is just to fulfill a statement by Goebbels: “If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.”
Joseph Goebbels"
And in the World as it is today, all you have to do to be labelled an anti-semite is to confront Jewish/Israeli interests. For they will not brook even token resistance to their demands. These same interests control every utterance and policy of America. Jewish interests control The American Dollar. As is so often said: "When you have a man by the gonads, his mind soon follows ... :" (paraphrased)

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Message 507209 - Posted: 22 Jan 2007, 21:17:36 UTC - in response to Message 507203.
Last modified: 22 Jan 2007, 21:25:52 UTC

I may be missing something here ...
Could ANY of you please provide me with one shred of evidence that the area now known as Israel was the homeland of the Jews in the Middle East?
The argument provided by Beethoven is spurious ... since it refers in equal - if not greater measure to the Jews. There is NO country in the World today where you will not find a Jew. You could hardly say that for a Palestinian.
The essence of all of this diatribe is just to fulfill a statement by Goebbels: “If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.”
Joseph Goebbels"
And in the World as it is today, all you have to do to be labelled an anti-semite is to confront Jewish/Israeli interests. For they will not brook even token resistance to their demands. These same interests control every utterance and policy of America. Jewish interests control The American Dollar. As is so often said: "When you have a man by the gonads, his mind soon follows ... :" (paraphrased)

Hi Bodley, nice to see you back. Can anyone say why America belongs to the Americans and not to the native Indians who were originally forced out? In fact the Normans wrongfully invaded England so please could all the English leave now?

I don't support any right of Israel sitting there in the middle of Arabia where it looks so obvious to be a squatter, and recognize they can only sit there with the support of the USA otherwise they would have been evicted long ago. Stealing land and claiming it as yours is not right in my book. The Palestinians deserve a lot better in fair treatment than they are afforded.

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Message 507213 - Posted: 22 Jan 2007, 21:26:16 UTC - in response to Message 507209.

Hi Bodley, nice to see you back. Can anyone say why America belongs to the Americans and not to the native indians who were originally forced out? In fact the Normans wrongfully invaded England so please could all the English leave now?

Hi! Ice ...
I cannot say it is nice to be back ... but I will use my RAC of 235 (to date) to post. When that is done, I will not bother.
Speaking as a Welshman I fully endorse your view of the Normans. The French however will never apologise! There is no such word in the French language.
You wanna apologise, you say : "Je m'excuse ..." (I excuse myself ... )
As in "Je m'excuse de vous donner un coup de pied dans les boules" (I apologise for kicking you in the balls ...)

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Message 507215 - Posted: 22 Jan 2007, 21:28:47 UTC - in response to Message 507213.

Speaking as a Welshman....


Born in Llangollen.

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Message 507219 - Posted: 22 Jan 2007, 21:37:10 UTC - in response to Message 507213.
Last modified: 22 Jan 2007, 21:38:05 UTC

Hi Bodley, nice to see you back. Can anyone say why America belongs to the Americans and not to the native indians who were originally forced out? In fact the Normans wrongfully invaded England so please could all the English leave now?

Hi! Ice ...
I cannot say it is nice to be back ... but I will use my RAC of 235 (to date) to post. When that is done, I will not bother.
Speaking as a Welshman I fully endorse your view of the Normans. The French however will never apologise! There is no such word in the French language.
You wanna apologise, you say : "Je m'excuse ..." (I excuse myself ... )
As in "Je m'excuse de vous donner un coup de pied dans les boules" (I apologise for kicking you in the balls ...)

I know what you mean about "nice" Bodley. After the way you were treated I am not surprised with how you feel. I stopped crunching for SETI myself briefly, but then realized it was the science I was crunching for; not the people in the project.

History is one thing, but what we allow today is shocking. To watch what happens in the world, and even to see support that is clearly wrong is astounding in this age of 'civilization'. I hope ETI doesn't come just yet to see how humans are still treating each other so badly.

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Message 507234 - Posted: 22 Jan 2007, 22:13:23 UTC - in response to Message 507215.

Speaking as a Welshman....

Born in Llangollen.

I was born in Tenby, Pembrokeshire.

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Message 507239 - Posted: 22 Jan 2007, 22:22:59 UTC - in response to Message 507234.
Last modified: 22 Jan 2007, 22:25:59 UTC

Speaking as a Welshman....

Born in Llangollen.

I was born in Tenby, Pembrokeshire.


Well, near enough!!! Us "northerners" reckon we're the real welsh....

(ducks)


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