SADDAM HUSSEIN -- GOOD RIDDANCE

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Profile mikey
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Message 494042 - Posted: 30 Dec 2006, 21:27:53 UTC - in response to Message 494023.  

My Dear Mikey (I do NOT say that in any condescending way at all ...)
If Israel cannot get along with the Palestinians .......
PLEASE tell me how the Hell they are even going to START with the Iranians?
(Who have vowed to wipe them off the face of the Earth!)

I understood your meaning Bodley, I was just trying to make a positive out of it! If Israel can't make friends with anyone, then maybe they need to be cut loose from the US's purse strings, before they start WWIII! The US seems to be Israel's most vocal advocate, maybe it is time the US backed off a bit and FORCED Israel to deal with its neighbors! And yes even Iran. Although Iran may soon have a new spokesperson. Admenijhad, or however you spell it, seems to be on the hot seat with his comments lately. The true Leaders of Iran are starting to say they would like to be more friendly to the rest of the World, and what's his name is not following that.

First, who are the "true Leaders of Iran"? Is "Leaders of Iran" a title?

See Bodley's response on that one, he was right on.

Second, you do realize realize that Israel isn't the one doing the attacking, right? Israel has responded very forcefully to attacks made on Israel. Should be an easy lesson, don't attack Israel and you don't get hurt. They just want to be left alone.

Easy enough

Third, you do realize that the official position of those neighbors of Israel is the destrucion of Israel, right? So just how do you propose that they approach those neighbors? Can you offer a strategy that can possibly help with this dilema?
Let's say that your neighbors have declared that they want you dead and have even shot you a couple of times. How will you approach them and discuss the situation?

Okay are you ready...see your answer #2! If Israels neighbors attack Israel they get hurt. No Nation wants that. So they have an incentive to talk.
The problem is that Israel KNOWS that currently the US has its back! The neighbors of Israel KNOW this as well! Attack Israel and BOTH Israel and the US will be in your Country quick as Israel asks. IF the US were to back off from its postion of ALWAYS having Israels back, then the neighbors would know that and try and attack Israel. BUT if Israel were to try and negotiate a peace agreement, then it might work. It did in the past when US President Jimmy Carter got Egypt and Israel to work out a peace agreement once, it CAN be done again!
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Message 494059 - Posted: 30 Dec 2006, 22:26:58 UTC

How exactly is a nation like Israel supposed to 'deal' with their neighbors like Iran that have openly pledged to kill every Israeli man, woman, and child?

Maybe they should just allow their enemies to kill just the women and the children.....

That would be a compromise.
Founder of BOINC team Objectivists. Oh the humanity! Rational people crunching data!
I did NOT authorize this belly writing!

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Message 494070 - Posted: 30 Dec 2006, 22:43:08 UTC - in response to Message 494059.  

How exactly is a nation like Israel supposed to 'deal' with their neighbors like Iran that have openly pledged to kill every Israeli man, woman, and child?
Maybe they should just allow their enemies to kill just the women and the children.....
That would be a compromise.

That is part of the 'art' of negotiating, making the other person think you have something they need and at the same time making them think that you are waaaay too tough to tangle with. If they will lose morethan they would gain by tangling with you and in fact have things to gain by dealing with you, you win and they win. The best of both worlds!

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Message 494073 - Posted: 30 Dec 2006, 22:47:09 UTC - in response to Message 494070.  

How exactly is a nation like Israel supposed to 'deal' with their neighbors like Iran that have openly pledged to kill every Israeli man, woman, and child?
Maybe they should just allow their enemies to kill just the women and the children.....
That would be a compromise.

That is part of the 'art' of negotiating, making the other person think you have something they need and at the same time making them think that you are waaaay too tough to tangle with. If they will lose morethan they would gain by tangling with you and in fact have things to gain by dealing with you, you win and they win. The best of both worlds!



Ohhhhh....the art of negotiating with those that want to kill you. Remind a murderer to try that out on your family sometime. You'd make a great SS officer.
Founder of BOINC team Objectivists. Oh the humanity! Rational people crunching data!
I did NOT authorize this belly writing!

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Message 494077 - Posted: 30 Dec 2006, 22:58:28 UTC - in response to Message 494073.  

How exactly is a nation like Israel supposed to 'deal' with their neighbors like Iran that have openly pledged to kill every Israeli man, woman, and child?
Maybe they should just allow their enemies to kill just the women and the children.....
That would be a compromise.

That is part of the 'art' of negotiating, making the other person think you have something they need and at the same time making them think that you are waaaay too tough to tangle with. If they will lose morethan they would gain by tangling with you and in fact have things to gain by dealing with you, you win and they win. The best of both worlds!



Ohhhhh....the art of negotiating with those that want to kill you. Remind a murderer to try that out on your family sometime. You'd make a great SS officer.

You forget...Israel has THE BOMB and has threatened to us it before. The US also has THE BOMB and HAS used it before!
Negotiating from a position of strength is an easy negotiation.
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Message 494147 - Posted: 31 Dec 2006, 0:25:18 UTC

Read on the news just now that they are "stoning the devil".

I did'nt know that Saddams body was going to be center stage.

Next..........

Graeme.

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Message 494532 - Posted: 31 Dec 2006, 10:57:26 UTC

No, I believe that they will hit him with the heels of their shoes.

Graeme.


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Message 494848 - Posted: 31 Dec 2006, 16:55:05 UTC - in response to Message 494077.  

How exactly is a nation like Israel supposed to 'deal' with their neighbors like Iran that have openly pledged to kill every Israeli man, woman, and child?
Maybe they should just allow their enemies to kill just the women and the children.....
That would be a compromise.

That is part of the 'art' of negotiating, making the other person think you have something they need and at the same time making them think that you are waaaay too tough to tangle with. If they will lose morethan they would gain by tangling with you and in fact have things to gain by dealing with you, you win and they win. The best of both worlds!

Ohhhhh....the art of negotiating with those that want to kill you. Remind a murderer to try that out on your family sometime. You'd make a great SS officer.

You forget...Israel has THE BOMB and has threatened to us it before. The US also has THE BOMB and HAS used it before!
Negotiating from a position of strength is an easy negotiation.

Please study up on the effects of atomic weapons. You cannot threaten with nuclear weapons. You either use them as a truly ultimate last means of survival or you let your country be destroyed. If a nuclear weapon were used anywhere in the region there is a very high probability that fallout would poison Israel also. A Pyrrhic victory is still suicide.

The only possible negotiating postion is the MAD (Mutually Assured Destrucion) stance. Unfortunately, this requires a sane negotiating opponent. I am sorry, but fanatics of any stripe do not qualify as sane by any measure. And fanatics that believe that if they can force you into a position where you must use such means for survival they win are on that razor thin edge between fanatic and psychotic.

If you have a problem believing that anyone that leads a country could be such a borderline psychotic, then read transcripts of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's speaches in Iran and other Muslim countries. Don't bother with the US media because they sanitize his statements for a variety of reasons. Read translations from Al Jazzera or similar sources.

You cannot "negotiate" at weapons point as your sole negotiating strategy. Soldiers and law enforcement officers are trained to draw weapons only with the intent to use them, never to threaten with.
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Message 494850 - Posted: 31 Dec 2006, 17:03:50 UTC - in response to Message 494848.  

The only possible negotiating postion is the MAD (Mutually Assured Destrucion) stance. Unfortunately, this requires a sane negotiating opponent. I am sorry, but fanatics of any stripe do not qualify as sane by any measure. And fanatics that believe that if they can force you into a position where you must use such means for survival they win are on that razor thin edge between fanatic and psychotic.

If you have a problem believing that anyone that leads a country could be such a borderline psychotic, then read transcripts of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's speaches in Iran and other Muslim countries. Don't bother with the US media because they sanitize his statements for a variety of reasons. Read translations from Al Jazzera or similar sources.

You cannot "negotiate" at weapons point as your sole negotiating strategy. Soldiers and law enforcement officers are trained to draw weapons only with the intent to use them, never to threaten with.

Hyland ... if you have a cogent and believable thing to say, then state it.
Your post is crammed with supposition and your own view as to the sanity of the heads of state involved.
I could easily say (with a FAR greater chance of success) that GW Bush is so dyslexically incompetent that he fails the test to be President.
Either argument is unsustainable - and unsuitable in this forum.
Please grow up and smell the roses!
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Message 494851 - Posted: 31 Dec 2006, 17:04:06 UTC - in response to Message 494848.  

How exactly is a nation like Israel supposed to 'deal' with their neighbors like Iran that have openly pledged to kill every Israeli man, woman, and child?
Maybe they should just allow their enemies to kill just the women and the children.....
That would be a compromise.

That is part of the 'art' of negotiating, making the other person think you have something they need and at the same time making them think that you are waaaay too tough to tangle with. If they will lose morethan they would gain by tangling with you and in fact have things to gain by dealing with you, you win and they win. The best of both worlds!

Ohhhhh....the art of negotiating with those that want to kill you. Remind a murderer to try that out on your family sometime. You'd make a great SS officer.

You forget...Israel has THE BOMB and has threatened to us it before. The US also has THE BOMB and HAS used it before!
Negotiating from a position of strength is an easy negotiation.

Please study up on the effects of atomic weapons. You cannot threaten with nuclear weapons. You either use them as a truly ultimate last means of survival or you let your country be destroyed. If a nuclear weapon were used anywhere in the region there is a very high probability that fallout would poison Israel also. A Pyrrhic victory is still suicide.

The only possible negotiating postion is the MAD (Mutually Assured Destrucion) stance. Unfortunately, this requires a sane negotiating opponent. I am sorry, but fanatics of any stripe do not qualify as sane by any measure. And fanatics that believe that if they can force you into a position where you must use such means for survival they win are on that razor thin edge between fanatic and psychotic.

If you have a problem believing that anyone that leads a country could be such a borderline psychotic, then read transcripts of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's speaches in Iran and other Muslim countries. Don't bother with the US media because they sanitize his statements for a variety of reasons. Read translations from Al Jazzera or similar sources.

You cannot "negotiate" at weapons point as your sole negotiating strategy. Soldiers and law enforcement officers are trained to draw weapons only with the intent to use them, never to threaten with.

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is NOT the TRUE Leader of Iran. He is a puppet in charge of nothing but propaganda. The Mullah's are the REAL power and are starting to get real tired of his constant baiting of the West. The Mullah's realize that sanctions will probably put them back in the Stone Age and they NEED the West and its trade. Reports are surfacing that Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is on his way out and will be replaced by a more moderate speaking individual. The IAEA may well be allowed back in and China and Russia are being courted to take over the enrichment of Uranium to ensure to the West that the reason is indeed power and not weapons. Time will solve these particular issues. The berating of Israel can be solved thru negotiations between the involved Countries in talks that have meaning and substance. Israel can provide a much needed local market for the goods of all of Israel's neighbors. It can also provide a conduit into the very lucrative US market. And from there to the rest of the World.
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Message 494863 - Posted: 31 Dec 2006, 17:26:43 UTC - in response to Message 494855.  

I am just a click away from deleting this thread.

I for one agree with you . It serves no useful purpose ...
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Message 494905 - Posted: 31 Dec 2006, 18:39:50 UTC - in response to Message 493547.  

Too bad he wasn't the worst of them to be met with a noose.


Live by the sword, die by the sword...

At the same time, I'm confident that there were plenty of polygicians world-wide pleased to see Saddam swing so quickly. Saddam can no longer air out their dirty laundry.

I.e., American Republicans AND Democrats when Saddam was the lesser-evil during the Iraq/Iran war, French AND Russians during the Food-for-Oil kickback days, etc.

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Message 495100 - Posted: 31 Dec 2006, 22:30:54 UTC - in response to Message 494850.  

Hyland ... if you have a cogent and believable thing to say, then state it. Your post is crammed with supposition and your own view as to the sanity of the heads of state involved. I could easily say (with a FAR greater chance of success) that GW Bush is so dyslexically incompetent that he fails the test to be President. Either argument is unsustainable - and unsuitable in this forum. Please grow up and smell the roses!


Bodley, I didn't ask you to take my word for it, I asked you to do the research and pointed you at a starting point. Your argument about President Bush is a non sequitur. Do your research and then talk.
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Message 495112 - Posted: 31 Dec 2006, 22:55:27 UTC

Wow.
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Message 495115 - Posted: 31 Dec 2006, 22:57:07 UTC - in response to Message 494905.  


Live by the sword, die by the sword...



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Message 495505 - Posted: 1 Jan 2007, 13:41:03 UTC

From BBC NEWS:

Saddam Hussein's last moments

Saddam hanging taunts evoke ugly past

Not a nice story. People never change, apparently.


"I'm trying to maintain a shred of dignity in this world." - Me

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Message 495678 - Posted: 1 Jan 2007, 18:48:15 UTC - in response to Message 495505.  
Last modified: 1 Jan 2007, 19:32:26 UTC

From BBC NEWS:

Saddam Hussein's last moments

Saddam hanging taunts evoke ugly past

Not a nice story. People never change, apparently.




As The Who Put it

"Meet the new boss
Same as the old boss"


Well it just cost the UK and US billions of pounds and Iraq hundreds of thousands of lives to learn what we already knew. Humanity's a sad bunch. Happy New Year.


Here's the full lyrics from The Who, which seem quite apposite.

We'll be fighting in the streets
With our children at our feet
And the morals that they worship will be gone
And the men who spurred us on
Sit in judgement of all wrong
They decide and the shotgun sings the song

I'll tip my hat to the new constitution
Take a bow for the new revolution
Smile and grin at the change all around
Pick up my guitar and play
Just like yesterday
Then I'll get on my knees and pray
We don't get fooled again

The change, it had to come
We knew it all along
We were liberated from the fold, that's all
And the world looks just the same
And history ain't changed
'Cause the banners, they are flown in the next war

I'll tip my hat to the new constitution
Take a bow for the new revolution
Smile and grin at the change all around
Pick up my guitar and play
Just like yesterday
Then I'll get on my knees and pray
We don't get fooled again
No, no!

I'll move myself and my family aside
If we happen to be left half alive
I'll get all my papers and smile at the sky
Though I know that the hypnotized never lie
Do ya?

There's nothing in the streets
Looks any different to me
And the slogans are replaced, by-the-bye
And the parting on the left
Are now parting on the right
And the beards have all grown longer overnight

I'll tip my hat to the new constitution
Take a bow for the new revolution
Smile and grin at the change all around
Pick up my guitar and play
Just like yesterday
Then I'll get on my knees and pray
We don't get fooled again
Don't get fooled again
No, no!

Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!

Meet the new boss
Same as the old boss

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Message 495699 - Posted: 1 Jan 2007, 19:21:09 UTC
Last modified: 1 Jan 2007, 19:23:29 UTC


"It all seemed weirdly calm and dignified.

Not so."

What the Iraqi government showed on video as what they wanted the world to see was so different to what actually happened.

Deceit and lies. It goes on. And we think we are so wonderful, beyond this sort of manipulation and propaganda. Are we any better?

There were just two questions about Saddam at the end.

1. Was he mad? Could he have been excused from his crimes due to mental health?

2. Did he believe that what he did was for God, for Allah, that what he did was right?

It's not about what you believe, or whether he should have believed what the Sunnis believed, or what the Persians believed.

Did he believe it, and was he rational, not mad?

If he was mad pity him.

If he wasn't mad, at least try to understand what he believed which caused so much destruction and evil.

If you don't do either, then you aren't paying attention enough and your survival as a species is in yet more danger.


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Message 495785 - Posted: 1 Jan 2007, 22:45:36 UTC


Quotes from tyrants:

"Yours is a society which cannot accept 10,000 dead in one battle" - Saddam Hussein

"The oppressed peoples can liberate themselves only through struggle." - Kim Il Sung

"Who says I am not under the special protection of God?" - Adolf Hitler

"Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun." - Mao Zedong

"It is better to sacrifice everything than to live in slavery." - Ho Chi Minh

"I want your heart. I want to eat your children." - Idi Amin


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Message 495786 - Posted: 1 Jan 2007, 22:47:06 UTC

Isn't this a Dead subject? :-)
Whipping a dead Dictator? :-)
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