It seems a cottage industry has sprung up around the idea that anyone who criticizes the developers of this project is: a troll; a self-appointed expert (said sarcastically); and/or one to be ignored, vilified and denounced. Well, four days ago AZWoody (whoever that is) suggested that the Berkeley team hold off for a few days on their upgrade so that, as I understand it, the system could stabilize. As it happened, they (the developers) went ahead with a change to require the use of version 4.05 yesterday, Sunday, and low and behold, the system went down. One wonders whether waiting a few days and planning out the procedure a little more carefully might have avoided the downtime. At the least, it would have allowed a little more time for participants to prepare for the move.

As of this writing, we still don’t know what the problem was. The “classic” SETI homepage reported, “The BOINC server farm is having hardware problems and so the servers and website have been turned off. We'll post an ETA for coming back up as we know more.”, but when the BOINC homepage came back up it said, “A fix to scheduler code to get around a possible memory leak was causing it to bomb after a number of connections. We have backed out this change for now and the scheduler seems to be working OK at this point.”, which sounds like a software problem. I don’t claim to understand the technicalities of this, but it would be nice to know what is going on; and these messages support the notion that the changeover was premature.

There is something to be said for letting the project run for a while before making major changes. There would be fewer participants “jumping ship” if there was a little less frustration surrounding the issues of downloading work, uploading work, and even having the right client to process the work.

Can't add anything to that - well said.

Actually, the message on the home page was there several hours before the SETI/BOINC servers went down, and it appears that they're still reloading/replacing files (like the style-sheets).

It appears that the database was not corrupted or lost, and during the outage my machines had work units to crunch. They've uploaded three work units since the servers came back, and the schedules have accepted all of them.

So, aside from the fact that nobody could complain in these forums for about a half day, it looks like nothing was lost, and there appears to have been no harm.

Zain Upton is graphing work credits and active users here so we'll see if there is a net decrease in users or work done.

I don't think the people who complain are trolls, I just wonder why they get so upset when things don't meet their expectations.

I'd expect news once they get everything back on line.

> “A fix to scheduler code to get around a possible memory leak was causing it
> to bomb after a number of connections. We have backed out this change for now
> and the scheduler seems to be working OK at this point.”, which sounds like a
> software problem. I don’t claim to understand the technicalities of this, but
> it would be nice to know what is going on; and these messages support the
> notion that the changeover was premature.

This was posted before the servers went down. Quite a while before. The first indications of problems was the instability of the webpages noted by 2 posts on this forum by myself and Rob Neff about 15 to 16 hours ago, titled "Homepage is not displaying properly" and "Serious Web Site Issues".

So, I'd too like an explanation as of the server crush.

> It appears that the database was not corrupted or lost, and during the outage
> my machines had work units to crunch. They've uploaded three work units since
> the servers came back, and the schedules have accepted all of them.
> So, aside from the fact that nobody could complain in these forums for about a
> half day, it looks like nothing was lost, and there appears to have been no
> harm.
>
I couldn't download all weekend, so though nothing was lost (as far as we know) I was idle. And I couldn't download today until about 1/2 hour ago: I estimate about six hours after others were reporting they had work and everything was going fine.

> I don't think the people who complain are trolls, I just wonder why they get
> so upset when things don't meet their expectations.
>

Most don't complain just to complain, they are complaining to report their own problems with this project. Isn't that one of the reasons for these message boards . . . to give such feedback?

> I couldn't download all weekend, so though nothing was lost (as far as we
> know) I was idle. And I couldn't download today until about 1/2 hour ago: I
> estimate about six hours after others were reporting they had work and
> everything was going fine.

As far as I know, nobody could upload/download and/or access the webpages here at BOINC/SAH from about 15 hours ago till 1 hour ago.

> Most don't complain just to complain, they are complaining to report their own
> problems with this project. Isn't that one of the reasons for these message
> boards . . . to give such feedback?

I think the purpose of the message boards is to build a community: a place for people to talk about the project, and yes, that would include complaints.

What I can't fathom is the incredible amount of angst among those complaining.

From what little I've found that is official, I think we saw a hardware failure, not a bug in the software. We can wait for more news.

Either way, it would have been nice if things had held together long enough for more people to get their work units.

Either way, if you have work units and the client now, you can likely keep crunching through another outage like this one....

But again, I'm absolutely amazed (and appalled) at the anger level -- especially when you realize that the project's goal has always been to use EXCESS clock cycles on computers that were going to be on anyway, and not for people to invest money just to run SETI@Home or related projects.

More than anything else, I think the BOINC team wanted SETI and CPDN running on the same platform so that both projects would benefit from the same user base.

> I'm no "expert", but I do know that you can not test real world situations and
> avoid 100% of the errors. And besides, what the hell does "stabilize" mean?
> The program is changing, the volume of traffic is changing, and users new
> "screw-ups" are yet to be invented. Then on top of it all is the random
> hardware failure that can not, dispite what you so called experts think, be
> predicted. Give the staff at S@H a break. They are doing a great job on a
> shoe string budget.

I find the whole thing quite bizarre. As the owner of a website where some people criticize incessantly while other people actually do the work, I'm no stranger to this sort of behaviour. However it never ceases to amaze me how upset some people get when the hard work being done selflessly by other people for the common good fails to meet their expectations.

In the end, some people are just too uptight to be reasonable. There's no point arguing with the complainers, they won't change. I just look at them getting all stressed because "the project is down!!!" and give thanks that I'm not like that.

> I'm no "expert", but I do know that you can not test real world situations and
> avoid 100% of the errors. And besides, what the hell does "stabilize" mean?
> The program is changing, the volume of traffic is changing, and users new
> "screw-ups" are yet to be invented. Then on top of it all is the random
> hardware failure that can not, dispite what you so called experts think, be
> predicted. Give the staff at S@H a break. They are doing a great job on a
> shoe string budget.

I'm no expert either, K, but regarding stabilizing, I did say that it would have been a good idea to wait "a few days and [plan] out the procedure a little more carefully [which] might have avoided the downtime. At the least, it would have allowed a little more time for participants to prepare for the move." I'm all for giving the developers a break, they work hard, but they might listen to input on these boards a little more; and those who slam any criticism posted here should give the so-called "complainers" a break, too.

> It seems a cottage industry has sprung up around the idea that anyone who
> criticizes the developers of this project is: a troll; a self-appointed expert
> (said sarcastically); and/or one to be ignored, vilified and denounced.

Dear Herr Koenig
Among gentlemen
Criticism is always good
Criticism is always good when civil and respectful
Criticism is always good when without overbearance, arrogance, haughtiness, rudeness.

AZ Woody & family has only to learn the civil ways.
(Not as Mike Tyson eats ear to Dr. .Anderson!!!)


Mjöllnir, Effelsberg
S@h Berkeley's Staff Friends Club © member

> Dear Herr Koenig
> Among gentlemen
> Criticism is always good
> Criticism is always good when civil and respectful
> Criticism is always good when without overbearance, arrogance, haughtiness,
> rudeness.
>
> AZ Woody & family has only to learn the civil ways.
> (Not as Mike Tyson!!!)

Dear Mjöllnir, Effelsberg,
Here is the post made by AZWoody:

"It starts working, and next we know is "Boinc 4 tomorrow", and the new splitters now have the wrong URL!

"Why can't UCB just say "ok it works, and the crunchers have been angry, so how about we just keep it running and take a break for a few days before we change stuff?

"What happened is classic (well, not classic, but New Coke), in that the new splitters seem to be messing up the URL. They "announced" having 3 splitters back in late june or early july, so this isn't a new change!

"So now, a few days after month old credits started to be granted, we find that new work is in limbo, and 4.x will be required to get work tomorrow!

"Pope Dave must be ruling this with an iron hand for some reason!"

Except for the snide remark at the end, there was no swearing, threatening or name calling, this message only asked the question, why not wait? And I am saying, now, that I think the suggestion was right.

Responses to AZWoody included calling him a "wazoo coder", a "loudmouthed nitwit", a "complete loser and one of the biggest tools I've ever run into on the internet", and one from you calling him a "peacock god". None of that was "civil and respectful"; none of that was "without overbearance, arrogance, haughtiness, rudeness".

You read ALL msgs of Woody (not only one),
later talks to knowledge of cause.

Mjöllnir, Effelsberg
S@h Berkeley's Staff Friends Club © member

According to the news, the SNAP Appliance (where the files are stored) had some issues.

... and while it may be software issues on the SNAP Appliance, that didn't change from 3.x to 4.x.

I'm not calling anyone a Troll, and I'm not aiming this at any one person, but geez, we've got a whole great ruddy stack of people here that need to sit back, relax, enjoy a nice adult beverage and stop worrying about their waste clock cycles being wasted.

> > Dear Herr Koenig
> > Among gentlemen
> > Criticism is always good
> > Criticism is always good when civil and respectful
> > Criticism is always good when without overbearance, arrogance,
> haughtiness,
> > rudeness.
> >
> > AZ Woody & family has only to learn the civil ways.
> > (Not as Mike Tyson!!!)
>
> Dear Mjöllnir, Effelsberg,
> Here is the post made by AZWoody:
>
> "It starts working, and next we know is "Boinc 4 tomorrow", and the new
> splitters now have the wrong URL!
>
> "Why can't UCB just say "ok it works, and the crunchers have been angry, so
> how about we just keep it running and take a break for a few days before we
> change stuff?
>
> "What happened is classic (well, not classic, but New Coke), in that the new
> splitters seem to be messing up the URL. They "announced" having 3 splitters
> back in late june or early july, so this isn't a new change!
>
> "So now, a few days after month old credits started to be granted, we find
> that new work is in limbo, and 4.x will be required to get work tomorrow!
>
> "Pope Dave must be ruling this with an iron hand for some reason!"
>
> Except for the snide remark at the end, there was no swearing, threatening or
> name calling, this message only asked the question, why not wait? And I am
> saying, now, that I think the suggestion was right.
>
> Responses to AZWoody included calling him a "wazoo coder", a "loudmouthed
> nitwit", a "complete loser and one of the biggest tools I've ever run into on
> the internet", and one from you calling him a "peacock god". None of that was
> "civil and respectful"; none of that was "without overbearance, arrogance,
> haughtiness, rudeness".
>
But AZWoody was critiquing the project engineers with his snide comments, which is per usual with AZWoody. In fact, I think one of the engineers called him on his back-seat coding reviewing and he hasn't responded to that yet, if I am recalling the post correctly.

He also blankets most anybody that stands up for the positive support of the developers of the BOINC/SAH project as Cheerleaders and can be very derogatory in his posts. The phrase if you play with fire you might get burned, comes to mind. I'm sure he can take as well as he gives it out, it seems to be some peoples chosen way of interacting on the internet. Internet version of Drama Queens.

> geez, we've got a whole great ruddy stack of people here that need to sit
> back, relax, enjoy a nice adult beverage and stop worrying about their waste
> clock cycles being wasted.

BINGO!

I agree with you, Ned! ;-)


Mjöllnir, Effelsberg
S@h Berkeley's Staff Friends Club © member

>
> Responses to AZWoody included calling him a "wazoo coder", a "loudmouthed
> nitwit", a "complete loser and one of the biggest tools I've ever run into on
> the internet", and one from you calling him a "peacock god". None of that was
> "civil and respectful"; none of that was "without overbearance, arrogance,
> haughtiness, rudeness".
>

Tom Koenig

Don't blame *us* for calling him a "wazoo coder"... One of the BOINC Developers called AZWoody that. Oh, and you left out what *I* call him... AZ-Wipe. I tried "civil and respectful" with him. Didn't work. The moment that virtually anyone tries to say something positive about the BOINC project, or about BOINC/S@H, he is all over them with derogatory posts. Its not that he critizes BOINC, its his close-minded demogoguery against BOINC that has myself (and many others) cheesed off at him. Be careful of who you defend. An ancient proverb states that if a man sleeps with dogs, he wakes up with fleas.




------------
KWSN-MajorKong
KWSN Forum Admin (retired)
http://www.kwsnforum.com

BOINC Beta tester
Member of the 'Magnificent 7'

> Tom Koenig
>
> Don't blame *us* for calling him a "wazoo coder"... One of the BOINC
> Developers called AZWoody that. Oh, and you left out what *I* call him...
> AZ-Wipe. I tried "civil and respectful" with him. Didn't work. The
> moment that virtually anyone tries to say something positive about the BOINC
> project, or about BOINC/S@H, he is all over them with derogatory posts. Its
> not that he critizes BOINC, its his close-minded demogoguery against BOINC
> that has myself (and many others) cheesed off at him. Be careful of who you
> defend. An ancient proverb states that if a man sleeps with dogs, he wakes up
> with fleas.


Standing ovation to KWSN-MajorKong!


Clear skies from SETI Italia [/b][/url]

Dear Venus,

I enjoy reading your posts to these message boards because you seem reasonable, polite and concerned. I hope that I have acted the same.

In my life, I have been a jerk many times, but that does not excuse someone treating me rudely days, weeks, or years later. The responses that I quoted came directly after AZWoody's initial post and were not justified. The point of this thread started out to be that the developers should use the resource of this message board . . . and that is one of the reasons it exists.

I'm not blind, I know that this AZWoody guy can be a jerk, but that was not what was going on when he made this particular suggestion/comment. Regarding his "back-seat coding reviewing", I believe that it was in that very thread that he was asked to comment on the coding. He did not answer, nor should he have, given that there was only about 25 lines of code in a project that must have thousands. But even if he was given access to all the software, the feedback on these message boards should not be limited to those people who are super programmers; even people like me should be allowed to comment and state our opinions about the project. This was an example of a good suggestion.

Moreover, asking AZWoody to fix the code quoted in that thread was a red herring in that the thread was about holding off on a major change until: 1) the change-over was ready to be implemented, and 2) the participants had a chance to get caught up a little.

PS, If you're out there Ned, I am quite relaxed. I'm just trying to change people's attitudes about the way they act on these message boards, including AZWoody and the people who attacked him. Take a look at my posts. I (usually) remain calm, unless getting angry is part of my message.