Religious Thread [8] - CLOSED

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Message 423083 - Posted: 18 Sep 2006, 22:53:34 UTC

I think Tom Koenig said he is leaving the project. What's going to happen to the Religious Thread now?
'No one can make you inferior without your consent.'
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Message 423086 - Posted: 18 Sep 2006, 23:04:12 UTC - in response to Message 423083.  

I think Tom Koenig said he is leaving the project. What's going to happen to the Religious Thread now?


It may get closed. Someone else will then have to start a new one.

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Message 423090 - Posted: 18 Sep 2006, 23:11:11 UTC

I might start one going if no one else does so.

Sue.
'No one can make you inferior without your consent.'
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Message 423096 - Posted: 18 Sep 2006, 23:19:40 UTC - in response to Message 423090.  

I might start one going if no one else does so.

Sue.

Give Tom a chance to change his mind. Maybe if you ask him to stay he will. He's upset right now.
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Message 423097 - Posted: 18 Sep 2006, 23:23:08 UTC - in response to Message 423096.  

I might start one going if no one else does so.

Sue.

Give Tom a chance to change his mind. Maybe if you ask him to stay he will. He's upset right now.


OK, he might feel better tomorrow. It would be nice if he decided to stay and continue with this thread.

Sue.
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Message 423422 - Posted: 19 Sep 2006, 21:52:54 UTC
Last modified: 19 Sep 2006, 22:12:52 UTC



Qur'an 5:82-83

Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant. And when they listen to the revelation received by the Messenger, thou wilt see their eyes overflowing with tears, for they recognise the truth: they pray: "Our Lord! we believe; write us down among the witnesses.

May God bless you Pope John Paul II for recognizing the truth and for striving to bring peace to the entire world...

May you rest in peace... ;)
It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . .
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Message 424024 - Posted: 21 Sep 2006, 1:20:58 UTC



The pope's speech - Violent responses only prove pontiff's point

SAN DIEGO UNION-TRIBUNE EDITORIAL

September 20, 2006

Muslim extremists thoroughly missed the point of Pope Benedict XVI's speech at the University of Regensburg: a plea for “a genuine dialogue of cultures and religions so urgently needed today,” a dialogue he finds imperiled by the secularism of the West and the violence of radical Islam.

Instead, Muslim extremists zeroed in on the pope's quoting a medieval emperor who in a philosophical discussion objected to some of the Prophet Muhammad's teachings, specifically his command to spread Islam by the sword, as “evil and inhumane.” In so determinedly missing the pope's point, the extremists proved it.

“You infidels and despots,” replied an extremist group in Iraq, “we will continue our jihad (holy war) and never stop until God avails us to chop your necks...”

“If the stupid pig is prancing with his blasphemies in his house,” warned another group on the Web, “then let him wait for the day coming soon when the armies of the religion of right knock on the walls of Rome.”

What Muslim extremists see as their validation, other Muslims see as a false reading of the Koran. Not all Muslims are satisfied with the pope's statement that he was “deeply sorry for the reactions in some countries to a few passages of my address ... which were considered offensive to the sensibility of Muslims ... (and) which do not in any way express my personal thought.”

Were the pope still a professor at the German university where he gave his scholarly speech, it would provoke intellectual discourse running from Immanuel Kant to Muhammad. The outside world responds differently.

Many Americans have their differences with the pope, and most respect the constitutional protection of religious freedom and separation of church and state. This puts Americans at odds with the Vatican on numerous social issues. It also puts us at odds with a brand of Islam that hangs a teenager for adultery, teaches intolerance, blesses violent reactions to perceived offenses, and looks to suicide-bombing youths as the new sword against the infidels.

Americans differ over how best to respond, but acceding to threats to our freedoms is not an option. Our daily lives are built largely on persuasion above coercion and reason above dogma. We can't underestimate the violence and the threat. Yet most of us find the violence as puzzling as it is dangerous.

If the pope has misinterpreted the Koran, as some Muslims say, we need to know how so. If Muslims radicals have misinterpreted the Koran, as other Muslims say, we need to know how so. If all of us are to understand competing strains of Islam, Muslim moderates can educate the rest of us in distinguishing between them.

Pope Benedict himself suggested a promising way to foster needed understanding: a genuine dialogue of cultures and religions among people who can see and share a common humanity, if not a common creed.
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Message 424052 - Posted: 21 Sep 2006, 1:58:03 UTC - in response to Message 422925.  

>>>Because Shakespeare didn't offer us the gift of eternal life...

ETERNAL LIFE !!!
O Man.
Righta Rooty

That's what this kid needs

ETERNAL LIFE !!!

Give me a break Jeff.

ETERNAL LIFE !!!

Is about the most unappealing idea

Jesus, or his cohorts could have ever come up with.

I need ETERNAL LIFE

Like an E-Coli laced spinach dinner.

...cc
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Message 424151 - Posted: 21 Sep 2006, 7:10:40 UTC - in response to Message 424024.  

If the pope has misinterpreted the Koran, as some Muslims say, we need to know how so. If Muslims radicals have misinterpreted the Koran, as other Muslims say, we need to know how so. If all of us are to understand competing strains of Islam, Muslim moderates can educate the rest of us in distinguishing between them.

As if anyone would listen to them... ;)
It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . .
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Message 424690 - Posted: 22 Sep 2006, 6:34:12 UTC - in response to Message 424151.  

If the pope has misinterpreted the Koran, as some Muslims say, we need to know how so. If Muslims radicals have misinterpreted the Koran, as other Muslims say, we need to know how so. If all of us are to understand competing strains of Islam, Muslim moderates can educate the rest of us in distinguishing between them.

As if anyone would listen to them... ;)

So present information. Recommend books to read. Present your beliefs and contrast them with those of other Islamic beliefs. Speak openly.

And totally off the subject, why do you end every post with an elipsis and winkey "... ;)"? Do not feel obligated to answer, I am just curious because it seems an odd affectation to me.
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Message 424907 - Posted: 22 Sep 2006, 16:35:43 UTC

Religions of the World

Taoism: Shit happens.

Hinduism: This shit happened before.

Confucianism: Confucius say,”shit happens."

Buddhism: If shit happens, it isn’t really shit.

Zen: What is the sound of shit happening?

Islam: If shit happens it is the will of Allah.

Jehovah’s Witness: Knock, knock, "shit happens."

Atheism: There is no shit.

Agnosticism: I don’t know whether shit happens.

Protestantism: Shit won’t happen if I work harder.

Catholicism: If shit happens, I deserved it.

Judaism: Why does shit always happen to us?

TV Evangelists: Send us more shit!

Jedi Knights: May the shit be with you!
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Message 427338 - Posted: 27 Sep 2006, 23:12:20 UTC
Last modified: 27 Sep 2006, 23:15:47 UTC





Don't let this thread die!
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Message 427463 - Posted: 28 Sep 2006, 1:28:49 UTC - in response to Message 427338.  

Don't let this thread die!

Don'tcha worry... I won't... ;)

Recommended reading:

The Cross And The Crescent - Jerald F Dirks
Islam In Focus - Hammudah Abdalati
Islam The Alternative - Murad Hofmann
And of course...
The Qur'an - Abdullah Yusuf Ali

~ amana publications
It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . .
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Message 430782 - Posted: 4 Oct 2006, 14:38:53 UTC

Your koran doesn't offer the gift of eternal life, either. You'd just believe any malarkey that's written down by anyone and presented as ancient and true in your organized religion. You believe that by acting in some arbitrary way, some soecial spark in you will survive death, when there is no evidence at all to support this belief. You believe it, because you would be scared shitless at the alternative. I will bet that you can't even conceive of the alternative. Can you imagine that when you die, Jeffo, you are gone for good, your sight shuts down, your hearing shuts down, your small, touch and tast shut down too, and you can no longer move? You are in darkness that numbs your thinking even more, and more, and you slip into unconsciousness, never ever to awake again? Can you imagine that, or are you too frightened of reality?

You should be able to imagine that. It is the same place you were in the year 1104. or 247. or 3475 BC. or the KT boundary. or where you were when the big bang occured. You didn't exist. You will go to that same non-existence. Why invent all kinds of fantasies that suddenly you're called into existence, but will somehow, despite previous evidence, go on existing now forever because you like it that way?

I know I'm utterly wasting my time with an uneducated and brainwashed dupe here. But I hope that others may get some clues from what I've demonstrated above.



While we're on the subject of recommended reading, jeffrey, how about those proofs YOU asked me for?

"Oasis in Space" proves how the universe, the solar system, earth, and life leading to humans evolved without the need of a god.
"Cosmos" does the same thing.
"The Demon Haunted World" demonstrates how people can act without thinking about things at all. Basically the religious and the credulent. Or. as PT Barnum would have called them "the Sucker" born every minute.


Never Forget a Friend. Or an Enemy.
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Message 430877 - Posted: 4 Oct 2006, 20:11:48 UTC - in response to Message 430782.  
Last modified: 4 Oct 2006, 20:14:00 UTC

Your koran doesn't offer the gift of eternal life, either.

From the Qur'an:

50:32 (A voice will say:) "This is what was promised for you,− for every one who turned (to Allah) in sincere repentance, who kept (His Law),

50:33 "Who feared (Allah) Most Gracious Unseen, and brought a heart turned in devotion (to Him):

50:34 "Enter ye therein in Peace and Security; this is a Day of Eternal Life!"

Maybe you should read it sometime... ;)
It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . .
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Message 430894 - Posted: 4 Oct 2006, 20:41:23 UTC - in response to Message 420919.  
Last modified: 4 Oct 2006, 20:42:05 UTC

Error: 'my view'. It's not my view. It's what actually, verifiably, IS.

That's the difference between the 'view' you have, based on faith, and proof.


Chuck, no offense, but I would like to know what you think "proof" is?

I am a mathematician and a math educator, within a year of obtaining my Ph.D. I have been closely examining reasoning and proof, within the mathematical domain, through intense reading of works by philosophers, mathematicians and math educators.

In the mathematical domain, a proof is what convinces one's audience. Euclid borrowed the approach of philosopher's to put geometry on solid ground by applying the laws of logical deduction within an axiomatic system.

What Euclid put forth as an axiomatic system, and what was accepted for several centuries, is now seen to be flawed. In the late 19th and early 20th centuries, people such as David Hilbert tightened things up again. The current view is that an axiomatic system is:

1) A set of undefined terms. (This avoids circularity. Look at a dictionary, and every word they choose to include --- deemed to be socially accepted as a word --- is defined in terms of other words. Look up these words, and they again are defined in terms of other words. Expand the search far enough, and you'll likely come back to the word you started with.) The set of undefined terms should be kept small.
2) The set of defined terms.
3) The set of axioms. This set should also be kept small. (* I shall return to the discussion of axioms momentarily.)
4) Theorems, if-then statements built up through reasoning/proof.

From Euclid until Hilbert, axioms were statements taken to be true without proof. These statements were viewed as "self-evident." Interesting? The current approach to axioms is that there does not need to be any self-evidence. The axioms may even be about mathematical structures for which there is no currently known way to view them in the ways we perceive the universe, so how can we talk about them being self-evident? However, the axiomatic system must be consistent. It cannot lead to two if-then statements later on which contradict each other.
Most importantly, so long as these and perhaps a few other requirements are met, axioms are essentially taken on faith. A "group" is defined as a set where any two elements of the set can be combined by an operation. Every such combination under the operation results in another element of the set. (When I say another, this does not have to mean different.) The operation is associative and, with respect to the operation, there is a (unique) identity element and every element has a(n) (unique) inverse.
The concept of a group historically came about from recognizing similarities between the addition operation on the set of real numbers, the multiplication operation on the set of real numbers without the 0 element, and several other sets with an operation as I have described. Mathematicians abstracted the ideas, boiled it down to "these are the basics, the minimal set of things, we need to discuss something of interest." The concept was at some point agreed upon through social agreements and formalized.
Since then, we don't question the axioms. We take them on faith and simply consider what things we can show as a consequence of what we have set forth.
If I remember correctly, science also proceeds through testing "if this, then that" ideas. Research studies provide empirical evidence for refinement of theories, or even revolutionary ideas. But, I do not think the idea of proof is quite as formal in science as it is in mathematics. Furthermore, empirical studies have margins of error to consider.
Please consider what you believe "proof" to be. Would we all accept your definition? Or, are you also beginning from a set of basic assumptions and providing evidence, however much and however valid, that still must rest on the how fitting your basis of assumptions are?
Capitalize on this good fortune, one word can bring you round ... changes.
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Message 430951 - Posted: 4 Oct 2006, 22:09:49 UTC

Fascinating reading. I always wondered about the 72 virgins for a martyr, myself. Where do they come from ? Do people volunteer for this program ? Who gets to choose them ? For terrorists, I suggest they include their wives (if any), mothers, sisters, aunts, daughters, nieces, granddaughters, etc. That might help them reconsider. I suppose the appeal of a virgin is that the terrorist gets to be "their first". I dunno about most men, but fooling around is more fun with someone who isn't a "new recruit", so to speak. Or is it simply a male dominance thing. What about those few female suicide bombers ? Do they get virgins too ? Young men ? Or are they forced to become one of the virgins for the men ? Hmm. Not much incentive to be a female suicide bomber, which may explain their rarety. Interesting that no other religion I am aware of has such an incentive plan for martyrs.

I always like the tactic sometimes practised in debating class. You show up prepared to argue FOR, only to find the judge saying "We made a mistake. You are supposed to argue AGAINST. If you really know your topic, you should be just as prepared to argue either side." Then ask Muslim men (since they often claim women are treated equally under Islam) if they will agree to switching sides, so to speak. The will all start wearing the veil/burka, only appearing in public in the company of their female superior family member, be prevented from owning cars, property, or voting, etc. And by the way, YOUR wife, etc. will be conscripted as one of the 72 virgins. And this debating tactic works with ANY religion, with interesting results. Like ONLY female priests for Catholics.

I never really understood the bit about a womens hair being sooo tempting to men that they would be driven to become beasts by the site of it, unbundled. Most depictions I can think of, for historical Muslims show them as long-haired. Maybe there is something about the hair of a woman that is different from that of a man. There is a faint implication here that Muslim men are by nature, lacking self-control. And what happens if a westerner in a Muslim country happens to mention to a local that he/she is an atheist ? Are they immediately knifed ? Or are they given a chance to convert ?

Jeffrey ? Ask God if he had his back turned during the shootings at the Amish school in Pennsylvania this week.... I bet that made people think.
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Message 430952 - Posted: 4 Oct 2006, 22:19:11 UTC - in response to Message 430951.  

I always wondered about the 72 virgins for a martyr

There is no such reward...

Making the rest of your post, meaningless... ;)
It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . .
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Message 430965 - Posted: 4 Oct 2006, 22:42:07 UTC - in response to Message 430952.  

I always wondered about the 72 virgins for a martyr

There is no such reward...

Making the rest of your post, meaningless... ;)


Jeffrey....there was plenty in that post to respond to that was NOT meaningless. The first paragraph was the only part of that post that had to do with the " 72 virgins ".

I think you have been taking posting lessons from the wrong people.

Air Cold, the blade stops;
from silent stone,
Death is preordained


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Message 431041 - Posted: 5 Oct 2006, 1:22:56 UTC - in response to Message 430965.  
Last modified: 5 Oct 2006, 1:25:45 UTC

Jeffrey....there was plenty in that post to respond to that was NOT meaningless.

Maybe I was a little too harsh...

And what happens if a westerner in a Muslim country happens to mention to a local that he/she is an atheist ?

There are, and have been, plenty of Christians and Atheists living quite happily in that part of the world... And nobody is trying to convert or kill them, they just aren't permitted to enter the Holy Temples...

Jeffrey ? Ask God if he had his back turned during [snip]

There's too much tendency to attribute to God the evils that man does of his own free will.

~ Agatha Christie

;)
It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . .
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Message boards : Politics : Religious Thread [8] - CLOSED


 
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