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Bob Chr. Laryea
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Message 18509 - Posted: 28 Aug 2004, 0:21:18 UTC
Last modified: 28 Aug 2004, 0:23:44 UTC

Maybe this will carm some down. in 1999 they hard crashes like this and how many homies are crunching for them? :D<br />QUOTE: As is often the case with the launch of groundbreaking new technologies, not everything went smoothly. On June 29 the program managing the project’s database overloaded, and the BOINC website was taken off-line for a day for some much needed upgrades. “This is not surprising” said David Anderson, who leads both the BOINC and SETI@home projects. “Looking back on the launch of SETI@home five years ago, we had similar problems at the time.” “BOINC,” he added “does a great deal more than SETI@home,” and it should be expected that it would take a while before all parts of this complicated system run smoothly. “When we launched SETI@home in 1999 the system crashed within a few hours” added Matt Lebofsky, who works with Anderson on both Classic SETI@home and BOINC. “This time it took a whole week.”
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I have my hopes high and still crunching with a great smile on my face (When ever i can get some Wu's), knowing that i could make a difference. Having in mind that we are scientific amatures who helps the experts and likes the thought of E.T



<font face="comic sans ms">THE CRUNCHER'S CORNER !!!</font>

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Message 18514 - Posted: 28 Aug 2004, 0:27:32 UTC

What exactly are you crunching?
Are you running 4.05?
You have Wu's for 4.05?
Cunching? crunching what?
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Bob Chr. Laryea
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Message 18516 - Posted: 28 Aug 2004, 0:30:46 UTC - in response to Message 18514.  

> What exactly are you crunching?
> Are you running 4.05?
> You have Wu's for 4.05?
> Cunching? crunching what?
> [/url]
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Message 18522 - Posted: 28 Aug 2004, 0:40:13 UTC

Thanx Lar....I feel better already :)
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Bob Chr. Laryea
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Message 18523 - Posted: 28 Aug 2004, 0:44:16 UTC - in response to Message 18522.  
Last modified: 28 Aug 2004, 0:44:36 UTC

> Thanx Lar....I feel better already :)
> [/url]
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Message 18527 - Posted: 28 Aug 2004, 0:47:55 UTC - in response to Message 18509.  
Last modified: 28 Aug 2004, 0:48:54 UTC

ah those were the times - as I remember it people back then didn't go crazy about the problems there were ;-) The story is quite different these days


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Bob Chr. Laryea
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Message 18535 - Posted: 28 Aug 2004, 0:55:56 UTC - in response to Message 18527.  
Last modified: 28 Aug 2004, 1:25:53 UTC

> ah those were the times - as I remember it people back then didn't go crazy
> about the problems there were ;-) The story is quite different these days
>
>
> S@h
> Berkeley's Staff Friends Club © member

>
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Pascal, K G
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Message 18602 - Posted: 28 Aug 2004, 3:17:13 UTC

Oh yes, I remember my modem on auto dial all night all day etc ect no wuwus and no one could call me, man it was great.....
This 'SPACE' Rented.
The anonymity of the Internet, brings
forth, yet another EXPERT.

M7
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Message 18617 - Posted: 28 Aug 2004, 4:13:13 UTC - in response to Message 18602.  
Last modified: 28 Aug 2004, 4:22:02 UTC

> Oh yes, I remember my modem on auto dial all night all day etc ect no wuwus
> and no one could call me, man it was great.....
> This 'SPACE' Rented.
> The anonymity of the Internet, brings
> forth, yet another EXPERT.
>
> M7
>

I was there in the "early days" (see my sign up date), and there was noting like what's happening with seti/boinc.

In those days, a Wu might take a day or two to complete, so there wasn't the "it's been down for 12 hours since I hit the server" crunch... (now, there are computers that will do in a day, WU wise, what I'd do in a month back at the start of classic)

Also, Seti classic was developed in a few weeks, with almost no "beta test".. and problems were to be expected. We all knew it, as there was "communications"!

I do remember the "fiber cut" problem that hit UCB, and the "we need our own net connection" problem.. There, however, volunteers were told the details, in terms that were understood!

Seti/boinc was in beta for something like 18 MONTHS before 6/22 - I was involved since 11/03! The benchmark scheme was replaced DAYS before 6/22, so it was still very much under development. The version of BOINC released on 6/22 was never even in beta!

Also, when Classic was first released, it was a "new thing" (Distributed Computing in this environment) and there wasn't 5 years of history to build upon, as there was with seti/boinc

Pope Dave is only painting a picture that highlights his strenghs, but ignores what's wrong... (as we all would do in this case!)

I do notice that the NSF grant was ammended May 27, 2004, and provided UCB with over $900,000 (US) in funds for this project!

(http://www.nsf.gov/awardsearch/showAward.do?AwardNumber=0221529)

BOINC (BIDC) has been granted, by the NSF, close to 1 MILLION DOLLARS to make this work! So it's not like it's all unpaid help!


I really like this line from the NSF grant:

"There will be social and educational components as well. Public-resource computing projects succeed only if they attract and retain participants.In SETI@home, the researchers have developed a number of schemes for encouraging and harnessing friendly competition among users, and for keeping users informed and interested about the contributions of their computers to research."


Can ANYONE other than the cheeleaders buy into this with Seti/Boinc? (Ok cheerleaders, this is US taxpayer dollars from the NSF, so if you don't pay taxes in the US, you don't have a vote!)

(BTW.. NSF - the US National Science Foundation)
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Message 18622 - Posted: 28 Aug 2004, 4:44:26 UTC - in response to Message 18617.  

> Also, Seti classic was developed in a few weeks, with almost no "beta test"..
> and problems were to be expected. We all knew it, as there was
> "communications"!

Should make that a few years... Dan, Dave, and a few others first had the idea to do S@H in 95-96...

When S@H went public it had been in development for years...

----- Rom
BOINC Development Team, U.C. Berkeley
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Message 18623 - Posted: 28 Aug 2004, 4:46:51 UTC - in response to Message 18622.  
Last modified: 28 Aug 2004, 4:50:36 UTC

> > Also, Seti classic was developed in a few weeks, with almost no "beta
> test"..
> > and problems were to be expected. We all knew it, as there was
> > "communications"!
>
> Should make that a few years... Dan, Dave, and a few others first had the
> idea to do S@H in 95-96...

As a concept, but what time was involved to make it "internet ready" for a mass of users? I know it wasn't an 18 month long beta! Releasing the first seti classic and seti/boinc isn't even apples and oranges! Remeber Rom, I WAS a cruncher back then! (seems I joined a year before you did!)
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Message 18624 - Posted: 28 Aug 2004, 5:08:11 UTC - in response to Message 18623.  
Last modified: 28 Aug 2004, 5:10:42 UTC

> > > Also, Seti classic was developed in a few weeks, with almost no
> "beta
> > test"..
> > > and problems were to be expected. We all knew it, as there was
> > > "communications"!
> >
> > Should make that a few years... Dan, Dave, and a few others first had
> the
> > idea to do S@H in 95-96...
>
As a concept, but what time was involved to make it "internet ready" for a
mass of users? I know it wasn't an 18 month long beta! Releasing the first
seti classic and seti/boinc isn't even apples and oranges! Remeber Rom, I WAS
a cruncher back then! (seems I joined a year before you did!)

MS Word had far more problems with V1 than they did with V4, as MS learned from experience! NT 3.0 had many more problems than NT 4.0 (in the public view!) (I did beta for all from 3.0 to 4.0). Seti/Boinc is a "second generation" of Seti Classic.

What's been the "uptime" of the full seti/boinc system since 6/22? (I mean schedulers, upload work if available, download work when complete, credits granted for work downloaded, and result info for the user-cruncher!). Is it better than when classic was launched 5 years ago? (the first 2 months)(I know there were no schedulars involved back then, but upload/download/credit/info are the important parts.....)

from the NFS grant:

"There will be social and educational components as well. Public-resource computing projects succeed only if they attract and retain participants.In SETI@home, the researchers have developed a number of schemes for encouraging and harnessing friendly competition among users, and for keeping users informed and interested about the contributions of their computers to research."




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Profile Rom Walton (BOINC)
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Message 18626 - Posted: 28 Aug 2004, 5:20:13 UTC - in response to Message 18623.  

> As a concept, but what time was involved to make it "internet ready" for a
> mass of users? I know it wasn't an 18 month long beta! Releasing the first
> seti classic and seti/boinc isn't even apples and oranges! Remeber Rom, I WAS
> a cruncher back then! (seems I joined a year before you did!)

Woody, comparing dates each of us joined really doesn't matter as a gauge for how knowledgable one is about how a project works.

But in this instance I do not know, but I can ask David on Sunday night.

On another matter, funds acquired for BOINC development cannot be used for S@H hardware. The accounting rules established to protect tax payer dollars prevent it.

----- Rom
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Message 18632 - Posted: 28 Aug 2004, 5:46:02 UTC - in response to Message 18626.  

> > As a concept, but what time was involved to make it "internet ready" for
> a
> > mass of users? I know it wasn't an 18 month long beta! Releasing the
> first
> > seti classic and seti/boinc isn't even apples and oranges! Remeber Rom,
> I WAS
> > a cruncher back then! (seems I joined a year before you did!)
>
> Woody, comparing dates each of us joined really doesn't matter as a gauge for
> how knowledgable one is about how a project works.

>
> But in this instance I do not know, but I can ask David on Sunday night.

I'm talking about "what user crunchers saw" in the early days, as far as the SW release (me, in this case, as you were not there!). Pope Dave wasn't "just a cruncher" back then either, but a guy with 5 years less of tenure!! I read all this crap about how classic was bad back in the beginning, but I WAS THERE as a cruncher! There's no comparison!


>
> On another matter, funds acquired for BOINC development cannot be used for S@H
> hardware. The accounting rules established to protect tax payer dollars
> prevent it.

Did I say it was for HW? Uh, no... (you're just trying to deflect the issue) But it does go to paying for salary of the staff, right? As the same folks are doing Seti/Boinc and boinc over all, it seems that people are being paid for their work! (aren't you under contract, BTW? I don't think you are HW! and you're not a student. Is your pay provided by the NFS grant?) By your own words, the NSF grant could not be used for HW! Did the grant have anything to do with releasing the project early (oh wait... you wont answer that one, I'll bet!)

All I'm trying to get at is the whole "we're just unpaid volunteers" concept of the boinc dev. Seems on the UCB end, it sound like there aren't more than 10 folks involved in the day-to-day part of the project, yet the grant was for almost a million dollars! (be it over a couple years) (plenty of beer money for a college kid!)
>
> ----- Rom
> BOINC Development Team, U.C. Berkeley

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Message 18634 - Posted: 28 Aug 2004, 5:50:33 UTC

Woody,
I guess I have a vote because I pay "Significant" Taxes to the US.I would like to be able to select where my Tax Dollars were going, and without sounding like a "Cheerleader" I would support Seti. Not just for the program at hand, but for what the future holds. We are just now touching the tip of the "Tech Age" that enables us to do things that we only dreamed of in the past. Who's to say that other Planets, Galaxies, and Universes, "could" already possess the knowledge to cure things that are a death sentence on Earth. This is exactly why this project is so important. It starts with finding "Exsistence".We crawl before we walk, we walk before we run etc..Yes we could possibly find a hostile exsistence, if any at all, but these are chances that people with vision Must Take.

This is a volunteer program and Admin has made it a "competetive Challenge" for many, and there is surely nothing wrong with that IMO. There are people that post that say we are driving away many volunteers by the lack of communication, but I am sure Seti would like to hold as many participants as possible. You volunteer because you want to feel useful, where a computer may sit idle doing nothing, why not put it to work , and enjoy a little competetiveness. IMO as a whole we do a bigger dis-service to the volunteers by continually bashing those that Develop and Administer the program. We take the science out of the program and replace it with childish games. Someone thinking of Volunteering only has to take a peek at the Message Boards, and never look again. It just seems that the so called experts out there bashing the project and it's team are basically doing everything they can to discredit the program in the hopes of failure. Then the famous "I told you So" would be broadcast by all the volunteer "Experts"
Alot of people say that we spend to much of our Tax Dollars on frivilous projects and we are not spending enough on our own welfare. But if there is intelligent life beyond the stars, how would they view us as a civilization. Not to good I suppose.
I believe that it is ok for us to speculate, or even dream if you will, of a better tommorrow, and if this project is able to identify a signal,verify exsistence, then who knows what tomorrow holds. I am sure we will be long gone before any major revelations occur, but programs like this are the corner stones of our future.IMO.

Warm Regards,

Rocky
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Message 18635 - Posted: 28 Aug 2004, 5:51:39 UTC - in response to Message 18624.  

> MS Word had far more problems with V1 than they did with V4, as MS learned
> from experience! NT 3.0 had many more problems than NT 4.0 (in the public
> view!) (I did beta for all from 3.0 to 4.0). Seti/Boinc is a "second
> generation" of Seti Classic.

Your analogy leaves a lot to be desired. A better one is, think of SETI Classic as Windows 3.1 and SETI/BOINC as Windows NT 3.1.

BOINC doesn’t share any code with the original SETI Classic client. The SETI science application shares the same fundamental processing routines, but the state serialization and graphics routines are completely new.

> What's been the "uptime" of the full seti/boinc system since 6/22? (I mean
> schedulers, upload work if available, download work when complete, credits
> granted for work downloaded, and result info for the user-cruncher!). Is it
> better than when classic was launched 5 years ago? (the first 2 months)(I know
> there were no schedulars involved back then, but upload/download/credit/info
> are the important parts.....)

Not as high as I would have liked.

----- Rom
BOINC Development Team, U.C. Berkeley
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Message 18639 - Posted: 28 Aug 2004, 6:03:23 UTC - in response to Message 18635.  
Last modified: 28 Aug 2004, 6:11:00 UTC

> > MS Word had far more problems with V1 than they did with V4, as MS
> learned
> > from experience! NT 3.0 had many more problems than NT 4.0 (in the
> public
> > view!) (I did beta for all from 3.0 to 4.0). Seti/Boinc is a "second
> > generation" of Seti Classic.
>
> Your analogy leaves a lot to be desired. A better one is, think of SETI
> Classic as Windows 3.1 and SETI/BOINC as Windows NT 3.1.

(i remeber seeing the 3.1 UI the first time in an alpha of NT 3.0!)

Only to you you don't even remeber winnt 3.0!... How about windows 3.11 to NT 3.0? (yes, I tested that one too! Still got the CD's and diskettes if you want me to send them to you!)

>
> BOINC doesn’t share any code with the original SETI Classic client. The SETI
> science application shares the same fundamental processing routines, but the
> state serialization and graphics routines are completely new.

How about the classic client 3.x? The original client on classic was 1.x! Yup, not using 1.x code but using 3.x code was a good thing!

So, in simple terms, which others understand, the science is the same as 3.x, right? The graphics are new (I don't care) and the state serializtion is different (no one cares other tha WU's are at 50% in the first minute!)
>
> > What's been the "uptime" of the full seti/boinc system since 6/22? (I
> mean
> > schedulers, upload work if available, download work when complete,
> credits
> > granted for work downloaded, and result info for the user-cruncher!). Is
> it
> > better than when classic was launched 5 years ago? (the first 2 months)(I
> know
> > there were no schedulars involved back then, but
> upload/download/credit/info
> > are the important parts.....)
>
> Not as high as I would have liked.
>

Guess Rom.... 5%? Or if you don't guess, why not? Heck, the "user info" end has been down all of July and August! (can you say "pending credits" and results!!)


I notice thay you skipped the whole part of the ~$1m in funding from NSF! Why is that, I wonder?
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Message 18642 - Posted: 28 Aug 2004, 6:20:58 UTC

>I notice thay you skipped the whole part of the ~$1m in funding from NSF! Why is that, I wonder?

Woody,
Please, Apply for, and secure a job with the team at Berkeley, if they accept you even as a volunteer, impress them with your knowledge,or baffle them with your BS, or become their accountant, and I am sure you will see exactly where the money went. Rom I don't believe is the Accountant for the Berkeley Project.

Regards,

Rocky
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Message 18646 - Posted: 28 Aug 2004, 6:26:45 UTC - in response to Message 18639.  

> Only to you you don't even remeber winnt 3.0!... How about windows 3.11 to NT
> 3.0? (yes, I tested that one too! Still got the CD's and diskettes if you
> want me to send them to you!)

I would really love to see a Windows NT 3.0 CD, if you have one it's a fake. NT's first beta release was set at 3.1 to align with the release of Windows 3.1 that same month in 1992. I don't need your copies as I still have my own.

Before offically given a version number it was just refered to as Windows NT.

In case you need a refresher you can see a Windows release timeline here:

http://windows.about.com/library/history/blhistory1992.htm

> How about the classic client 3.x? The original client on classic was 1.x!
> Yup, not using 1.x code but using 3.x code was a good thing!

Server-side, all new...

Client-side, boinc.dll ( All New ), boinc_cli.exe ( All New ), boinc_gui.exe ( All New ), boinc.scr ( All New ), setiathome_4.03_windows_intelx86.exe ( 50% New )

> So, in simple terms, which others understand, the science is the same as 3.x,
> right? The graphics are new (I don't care) and the state serializtion is
> different (no one cares other tha WU's are at 50% in the first minute!)

Actually the Dev in charge of that bit of code is really annoyed by that bug, but the splitter bug and server maintenance has taken priority.

> I notice thay you skipped the whole part of the ~$1m in funding from NSF! Why
> is that, I wonder?

I'm not part of the management staff.

----- Rom
BOINC Development Team, U.C. Berkeley
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