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Profile BlkJack-21
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Message 329396 - Posted: 7 Jun 2006, 3:29:58 UTC - in response to Message 329389.  

Doh.........I didn't mean to pull the plug on your strike! Please continue the strike. While your at it some here need to learn what a strike is.

Traditionally those who go on strike have to give something up to join the strike. That usually means that you give up your pay check and put your bills and family at risk! Many here think it is fine to just set "no network access" and continue crunching for the week. What are they giving up?? That action is NOT a strike that is delaying the normal paycheck.

Anyway........please continue the strike.................if that's what you call it.


@Matt not sure who you are referring to.

@Geek@Play you are right..The words "Strike" and "Boycott" are probably not the best choice of words to describe. A "demonstration" would better describe what has transpired.

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Message 329397 - Posted: 7 Jun 2006, 3:30:13 UTC - in response to Message 329373.  

Did the topic of this thread change?

It seems odd that people who supposedly have no interest in the Strike are sure quick to come here and offer their anti strike .02....They won't support the strike but they won't pass up any opportunity to put it down either.

It's not like their feelings arent widely known from their postings in many of the OTHER more appropiate threads on this topic to make these types of comments in....

Why don't both sides return to neutral corners? Leave this thread for those who support the work stoppage and maybe start seperate thread(s) defending Berkeley's way of doing things and stop trying to demean what's happening in this thread..


The "requests", as well as the answers that have been posted here effect us all and all should have a say in it.


To truly explore, one must keep an open mind...
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Message 329399 - Posted: 7 Jun 2006, 3:31:08 UTC - in response to Message 329392.  

I see Eric posted a very detailed and awesome message that I think everyone should read. Was it off topic? I don't think so.
I agree that Eric answered on a point by point basis what was asked of him, that's not what I was refering to when I asked "Did the topic of this thread change"?

I was making an observation that since this was a thread for the 'pro strike' people, it's odd (actually it's really not) that the 'anti-strike' crowd would come here and offer their .02 why they don't feel like they need to support this..

I say to that, let them go start their own thread and return this one to it's original intended purpose which was to open a dialog with Eric Korpela, Rom Walton, Dr. David Anderson, etc... WHOMEVER it needs to be opened/started with to effect change based on the issues objectivly presented here at the beginning of this thread..

Otherwise this thread will degenerate in to just another flamefest and be summarily ignored by the very people it was meant for...


And unfortunately, as I stated below, not to be rude or come off sounding "anti", do you really expect people to adhear to the wishes of the topic of this thread? Just on this first page of threads, every one of them has something off topic. Asking people not to post in a thread that they don't like is just asking for more of them to post.

Back to being on topic, I wish everyone well with their strike. IF thats what you feel will correct things, enjoy. Personally, I see no point, I see the reasonings, but no point. Even if everyone on the forums quit crunching SETI, I honestly doubt that it will make anyone listen. This is not meant as a flame, a put down, or anything else you can think of. This is just a biased post, not negative, not positive, not for, and not against. Do as you wish. Once again, I wish you all well in your travels with the strike.
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Message 329404 - Posted: 7 Jun 2006, 3:36:28 UTC - in response to Message 329387.  
Last modified: 7 Jun 2006, 3:39:00 UTC

Steve

Please go "Google" for Eric's email address. Then please present the "proof" as to how things are incorrect, a spreadsheet would be nice... This covers Host ID's and the Angle Ranges... Until that happens everyone is just venting Frustration... Not to mention will not Fix the Problem!

If this whole thing was not so SAD, it could be funny for some. I see that you ignored my request to go visit Seti Beta... Now it bites You! It tells everyone inspite of "MY" warnings that you were happy without taking "proper time" to investigate... That becomes Your Fault!

So while I "personally feel that credits are less than they should be" I have worked to provide "proof."

You are once again welcome to email me al.setiboinc (at) gmail.com, I suspect that you will ignore it again! Just like that last half dozen times! I will be happy to email a link to where you can look a spreadsheet that can help to fix some of the problems, if you are not doing the same then you are missing something...

So along with the last note that Crunch3r is talking with the Seti Powers and we see these type things... I really have to wonder, are you talking "me" for the the general "community?" Currently no one has provided "proof!"

Pappa

Consider me foolish..

But requests were made. And now we have received a response.

I thought that a discussion based on the response follows? But if one whom is against what we are attempting would certainly tell us now "you received a resonse..now put it to rest." That seems a bit premature. I however am confident that if we discuss this in a civilized manner, the "dust will settle" and Seti will be a better place...


We may need to change the venue for the discussion with Eric.


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Message 329407 - Posted: 7 Jun 2006, 3:38:11 UTC - in response to Message 329397.  
Last modified: 7 Jun 2006, 3:45:26 UTC

The "requests", as well as the answers that have been posted here effect us all and all should have a say in it.
Maybe in the future they will (and maybe you all (strike & non-strike) should have a say in the future before UCB makes anything final), but now is not the time for that.

This is a thread to send the list of 'issues' that the 'strikers' have come up with to the Project Management Team for them to consider (been done) and to open a dialog based on those requests (also been done) with them. Nothing more or less than that.

Unless I'm missing something here, there's no reason to be afraid that if one doesn't immediately speak up for OR against this that somehow Berkeley will make some kind of summary judgement.

Things are a long way off from that as Eric has said that some of the issues will not begin to be considered/addressed until he get's back to UCB.

So, why not wait and see what the final 'official' position is from UCB before anyone (strike or non strike) jumps to conclusions based on facts not in evidence.

ed. spelling & clarity of thought
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Message 329411 - Posted: 7 Jun 2006, 3:40:41 UTC

A strike isn't a 100% give-in to demands. It's a compromise. And I've seen all the strike supporters yell at us instead of, say, apologizing for personally attacking Eric.
-----
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Message 329416 - Posted: 7 Jun 2006, 3:45:50 UTC
Last modified: 7 Jun 2006, 3:46:55 UTC

My personal comparisons to the Rosetta credit on identical rigs shows Seti credit a bit low to it. What more could be asked for is roughly the same credit between BOINC projects?

I agree that credits should be roughly equal across BOINC projects however Rosetta probably isn't the best one to base this on since they don't do validation and you get whatever you claim. If your benchmark happens to deviate from its usual values it will make all projects look off compared to Rosetta.

As for this sub-debate going on... it is doing more harm to the topic of the thread than just leaving it alone. Please just drop it, everyone.
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Message 329471 - Posted: 7 Jun 2006, 4:50:05 UTC - in response to Message 329315.  


So, that is why I started asking -- because when I thought about "fair" I realized that the word, like so many simple words, has more than one meaning.


Ned...

Yes, I know. That's why I mentioned the bit about taxes and the supposed "fair share"...

Brian

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Message 329476 - Posted: 7 Jun 2006, 5:00:49 UTC - in response to Message 329373.  


It seems odd that people who supposedly have no interest in the Strike are sure quick to come here and offer their anti strike .02....They won't support the strike but they won't pass up any opportunity to put it down either.


I think that you'll find I'm neither for or against, but am trying to see if I can coax a little more of an explanation on a specific point. The belief is that additional "work" is being done other than a floating point op. That is likely true, but I'm not sure if it is very much additional work. There is a statement that the project team is looking at a boost of perhaps 5% more. Also there appears to be a quest to equalize the credit between the boinc projects. So, there appears to be some efforts being made... If the individuals who support "the strike" can state their belief and provide unbiased data to support it, then perhaps more could/would be done?

If it really isn't "fair", then wouldn't it benefit everyone if those who hold that belief can express it in a more specific manner?

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Message 329484 - Posted: 7 Jun 2006, 5:25:29 UTC
Last modified: 7 Jun 2006, 6:25:09 UTC

This is why many have gone on strike. Mods (no name given)...like to turn it around and make it 'look' like a "two way street"...but in fact they cannot hack it. They are mods. They should NOT act inappropriately. Plan and simple.

I'm not going into detail. If anyone has any sense they'll see what the hell is going on. I'm all for the strike....but it seems as if it falls on deaf ears.

No offense....but Eric if you ever decide to quit...I will not be saddened. You say the seti project will fall in your absence. So be it.

I know it's coming. My machines are crunching for rosetta and einstein now. To hell w/ seti...a project I once had much love for. I care not crunch for the benefit of people that have their heads stuck up their rear end.

No msgs from me anymore. *Insert your flame here*

-dae6
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Message 329502 - Posted: 7 Jun 2006, 5:57:04 UTC - in response to Message 328840.  



The grievances we would request to be addressed are as follows:

[snip]

2.) The application errors in the code are causing countless hours of wasted CPU cycles. The application crashes out or gets -9 overflow errors MANY hours into workunit processing. This results in no credit being granted at ALL for such workunits. Thus, we request an application that does not waste our CPU cycles by going into a seemingly endless loop.

3.) There have been many discussions on what is "Fair Credit" for the work we perform. Since credit IS important to a large number of participants, we request that this situation be investigated sooner, rather than later. Perhaps looking into a system that takes into consideration the TOTAL amount of work done, and not just the FPOPS.

[snip]

Regards, Daniel.


Thankyou Daniel for this post.
I didn't know the fact 2.) (countless hours of wasted CPU cycles) but now I understand why some hosts of mine are so not productive.
So the Crunch3r fact is only the top of an icerberg. I didn't know the fact of the email to Eric. I don't read all the forum every day.

I totally agree with what you have written but not point 4.)
Beeing myself a moderator in a lot of ML/fora I know that this function is a techical one and not "democratic". You don't elect bus drivers, in USA, I think.
E partial sweep is in any case a good policy and administrators should see by themself who change, if any.

I hope that SETI will be again a project in wich believe and I must tell that this crisis is removing too much people.

Bye
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Message 329517 - Posted: 7 Jun 2006, 6:38:22 UTC - in response to Message 329307.  


[...]

4.) Being as that "some" of the forum moderators are doing more to feed the flames rather than to help extinguish them, we request perhaps a complete sweep of the forum mods with all mods elected by forum members.


I will discuss this with the rest of the team when I get back to Berkeley. I did not choose the moderators, nor do I wish to take part in choosing moderators. But I think a voting scheme will likely lead to the same problems we already have, lots of four letter adjectives flying around saying why so and so shouldn't be a moderator. Maybe it's time to go to a zero tolerance moderation scheme where any attack by anyone on anyone will be immediately deleted. There seems to be a widely based "It's OK for me to attack you but you can't attack me" attitude. I've certainly seen it directed at me.

Apparently a lot of people feel they can use any four letter adjective to describe me but that any reciprocation on my part is out of bounds. I think we all need to tone it down. I hope we can refrain from swearing and name calling in the forums in the future.



Hi, Eric.
I can't discuss now on the tecnical part of your post.
I can only give you a suggestion about "zero tolerance" and "delete post" activity (a tipical american way to solve problems that we european don't like :-) )

I'm a forum moderator (in politic forum, that as you can immagine are very ... inflammable ) and (but?) I don't like censorship so I suggest you to create a forum named "basket of the trash" and to move there every post that does not follow the forum's rules. So the original thread is clear but the moderator action is transparent. In order to do so you need a "move thread" and a "cut and move tree" funcion.

Bye,
Francesco
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Daniel Schaalma
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Message 329614 - Posted: 7 Jun 2006, 12:10:06 UTC - in response to Message 329307.  

Eric,

Thank you VERY much for taking time from your busy schedule to listen to, and address the grievances brought up. Let me start by saying that I am VERY SORRY for any verbal abuse you have taken because of these issues. I personally apologise if anything I have posted was the cause of any personal attacks on you. I will inform Crunch3r that you have opened up your spam filters for his email address, so that (I HOPE) there can be some private dialog between you and Crunch3r, so that we can mend the fences that have brought us to this crossroads. I also thank you for taking the time to address the other points of our concerns. I would also like to personally thank you, Eric, for your hard work and dedication to this project. It is my only hope that this Demonstration will help to bring all of us back together once again, so that Seti can PROSPER, and not self-destruct. Someone once said "All that is required for evil to triumph is for good men to do NOTHING". My love for this project is such that I could NOT just sit back and do NOTHING to try to improve things.

I would ask that EVERYONE stop the personal attacks on ERIC, as well as EACH OTHER. There will ALWAYS be strong opinions on BOTH sides of EVERY issue. I appeal to EACH AND EVERY MEMBER of this project to PLEASE respect the opinions of others from THIS POINT FORWARD, and please TRY to hold our tempers. I LOVE this project, and I am just trying the best I can to help make this project FUN once again for EVERYONE. It is time to stop cursing each other. It is time to stop flaming each other, and to stop the slinging of accusations. From this point forward, please try to work out your differences in a CIVILIZED mannor. We each have our own reasons why we crunch for Seti. No matter WHAT our personal motivation, the bottom line is that we ALL contribute to the projects goals, in whatever capacity we can.

It is PAST DUE that we start mending the fences that have so divided us, and thus, I shall begin. In the past, I have said things in other threads that I regret saying. It was in the heat of the moment. I thus APOLOGIZE to anyone I have offended by any of my remarks. I am deeply saddened that things have driven us so far apart.

Each human being is unique. With unique looks, with unique thoughts, unique customs, unique emotions and feelings. Yet we are ALL HUMAN BEINGS. Though we hail from different cities, states or provinces, and different nations, and speak different languages, it is high time that we start respecting one another, regardless of our beliefs or origins, and respect each other as citizens of EARTH. I firmly believe that we are not alone in this vast universe. If we, the citizens of Planet Earth, cannot work together, how will we react once we actually DISCOVER ETI??? Please, everyone. Take a few moments to reflect upon this, and let us begin working together for once. Let us mend our broken fences and show the WORLD that we can begin working WITH one another, not AGAINST one another. It starts HERE. It starts NOW. Thank you for your time.

Regards, Daniel.
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Message 329732 - Posted: 7 Jun 2006, 14:54:11 UTC

I'll address the moderation issue, because that's the one I have most personal experience with. I am a moderator on a large UK-based forum, and we do have a zero tolerance policy on personal attacks against members. We also have zero tolerance against the four-letter adjectives. In the vast majority of cases, it works very well, but I should point out that moderating a large forum with such policies is hard work, and the moderators should be prepared for such. It's also often a thankless task. We've had numerous people throwing email insults at us because they didn't like it when we took issue with their attitudes.

Throwing around expletives and personal insults can only ever be negative, and therefore counter-productive. It lowers the tone of the boards and results in people getting fed up with the community and leaving. I'd also consider it a poor reflection on those in charge of the boards to allow such activity to continue unchecked. Of course, the moderators themselves must lead by example, and at least in our case, any moderator throwing around insults and expletives would be ejected without hesitation.

In any event, getting the balance right between what is and is not acceptable is key to the longevity of any forum (and community) such as this. Over-moderation can be just as bad as under-moderation.

Of course, no forum is ever going to be perfect. Even with out zero tolerance policies, we've had the odd flare-up, just like has happened here. However, they are thankfully very rare.

Hope this perspective helps contribute to the debate. While I'm planning to leave SETI@home for a while, I'd certainly like to come back when things have settled down, and I'd rather come back to find a friendly community than one where people are constantly sniping at each other.
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Message 329733 - Posted: 7 Jun 2006, 14:54:31 UTC - in response to Message 329614.  

Well done Daniel. You will get a (+) from me. Hope now we can go back to normal crunching.

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Message 329752 - Posted: 7 Jun 2006, 15:35:08 UTC - in response to Message 328840.  

2.) The application errors in the code are causing countless hours of wasted CPU cycles. The application crashes out or gets -9 overflow errors MANY hours into workunit processing. This results in no credit being granted at ALL for such workunits. Thus, we request an application that does not waste our CPU cycles by going into a seemingly endless loop.

Yes! We need this fixed!

3.) There have been many discussions on what is "Fair Credit" for the work we perform. Since credit IS important to a large number of participants, we request that this situation be investigated sooner, rather than later. Perhaps looking into a system that takes into consideration the TOTAL amount of work done, and not just the FPOPS.

I disagree. Using FPOPS count to grant credit is as fair as it can get.



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Message 329897 - Posted: 7 Jun 2006, 17:52:23 UTC
Last modified: 7 Jun 2006, 18:02:00 UTC

It is over

Are there any site providing optimized clients?
in a message from Crunch3r he has deleted the source code and asked that everyone remove it from their computers.

There is no need for a Strike, there were no winners. There is a need to get the credit system fixed...

So it time to go back to Work, Crunch Or Stop it is Your Choice please just do it quietly...

Pappa

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Message 330010 - Posted: 7 Jun 2006, 19:45:33 UTC - in response to Message 329307.  

Sorry for my late reply. The mountain has been in lightning shutdown, and we're about to get hit again.


1.) Crunch3r, who has been instrumental in developing optimized applications for Seti and Seti Enhanced, was accused of cheating by some of the forum members.


I don't know what we can do about this. We have no control of forum members aside from shutting down the forums entirely. If things don't settle down soon, we may be forced to do so.


and had also sent Eric Korpela an email with a list of C++ errors in the standard Seti Enhanced application, that were eliminated when he built version of the Enhanced application WITHOUT optimization.


Look at the message. There is no list of C++ error messages aside from the alloca() problem which is specific to the Intel compiler. He claims the C++ exceptions are eliminated without giving any clues to what caused the exceptions in the first place. He doesn't even mention which of the numerous types of exceptions (which are Windows exceptions, rather than C++ exceptions) this claims to fix Given that I have some understanding of what is causing some of the exceptions (and having recently solved some of them if I get the new client into beta.), I can tell you that using a different compiler is highly unlikely to solve any of them.

If Crunch3r claims otherwise then he should pick one exception type, show how to reproduce it with a stock client, and then show how it does not occur with his recompiled client.


Eric had denied receiving this email, and even went so far as to call Crunch3r a LIAR. Crunch3r sent this email to Eric TWICE, and has proof that Eric received the second email.


Yes, and Crunch3r and others have called me worse things than LIAR. I'm not sure what this "proof" is. I had not seen the message until I explicitly looked at my second level spam folder and subsequently let it through. That was well after Crunch3r "quit" the project.


Thus, Crunch3r has left the project, and is no longer working to develop Seti code any further. This alienation and vilification of this project's top contributors needs to stop.


And I think the alienation and vilification of the Project Scientist needs to stop. You think Crunch3r's departure is hurting the project? My departure would end it, not that I intend to leave. But I don't need to sit here and be attacked. I have certainly faced more attacks in the last few days than Crunch3r ever got.


We request that Eric issue this apology in a new "Sticky" thread, and that the thread be reserved for a dialog between Eric and Crunch3r to work out their differences.


Thank you for acknowledging that I have appologized. Like many involved in this flame war, I got angry at being attacked and lost my temper for a few minutes, and I am sorry. But I don't see any apologies from people directed toward me...

Until I get some indication from Crunch3r (his email address will now get through my spam filter. I've added it manually) that he has some regrets about how he has acted and some indication that he wishes to take part in discussion, a dialogue is not going to happen.

Please remember that Crunch3r is taking this action in part because he didn't receive an answer to one email that he had sent me. He did not attempt to contact me again to see if I had received it. Pardon me if I see that as an overreaction.

I also don't think I would see anything but personal attacks by others in such a forum. As part of my response "requests," I'd like to see the unwarrented attacks on my character by others in the forums stop. Negotiation is a two way street...

I think I am owed apologies from a large number of people who have posted in the forums. I don't expect to get them...


2.) The application errors in the code are causing countless hours of wasted CPU cycles. The application crashes out or gets -9 overflow errors MANY hours into workunit processing. This results in no credit being granted at ALL for such
workunits. Thus, we request an application that does not waste our CPU cycles by going into a seemingly endless loop.


That problem was a server side problem that resulted in invalid thresholds in the workunit header. It has been solved. Incidentally, like the other bugs recently fixed, Crunch3r's recompiled application would not have affected this one way or another.


3.) There have been many discussions on what is "Fair Credit" for the work we perform. Since credit IS important to a large number of participants, we request that this situation be investigated sooner, rather than later. Perhaps looking into a system that takes into consideration the TOTAL amount of work done, and not just the FPOPS.


Essentially all of the work done by SETI@home is the FPOPS, so it would be difficult to come up with a better means of measurement. As a result of recent measurements I've increased the credit by 5% in a version that will be going into beta this week. An increase by significantly more than that is unwarranted at this time.

There are some misconceptions that the benchmarks in the core client are an indication of the amount of real work that an application can do. There is also a misconception that the amount of work done must be exactly proportional to time. Some areas of the code will always do more work per CPU cycle than others. The benchmarks are essentially an upper limit to the amount of work that can be done. The original idea in BOINC that the benchmarks would measure the total work actually done was misguided, and I said so at the time that idea was being developed.

One of the main reasons people are unhappy with the new credit system is that the original SETI@home was so suboptimal that people were able to build optimized versions that had 8 times the performance. That meant people could get their machines to generate 8 times the credit per hour by using an optimized version. Now that the better optimized enhanced client has been released, a factor of 8 is no longer possible. That has made some people angry. There is no change to the credit system I can make that will appease them.


4.) Being as that "some" of the forum moderators are doing more to feed the flames rather than to help extinguish them, we request perhaps a complete sweep of the forum mods with all mods elected by forum members.


I will discuss this with the rest of the team when I get back to Berkeley. I did not choose the moderators, nor do I wish to take part in choosing moderators. But I think a voting scheme will likely lead to the same problems we already have, lots of four letter adjectives flying around saying why so and so shouldn't be a moderator. Maybe it's time to go to a zero tolerance moderation scheme where any attack by anyone on anyone will be immediately deleted. There seems to be a widely based "It's OK for me to attack you but you can't attack me" attitude. I've certainly seen it directed at me.

Apparently a lot of people feel they can use any four letter adjective to describe me but that any reciprocation on my part is out of bounds. I think we all need to tone it down. I hope we can refrain from swearing and name calling in the forums in the future.






I just love it when the FACTS come out, well said Eric. I vote for a zero tolerance policy, as that will stop old hot headed me lololol
And the beat goes on
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Message 330030 - Posted: 7 Jun 2006, 20:02:59 UTC - in response to Message 329897.  

It is over

Are there any site providing optimized clients?
in a message from Crunch3r he has deleted the source code and asked that everyone remove it from their computers.

There is no need for a Strike, there were no winners. There is a need to get the credit system fixed...

So it time to go back to Work, Crunch Or Stop it is Your Choice please just do it quietly...

Pappa

Please consider a Donation to the Seti Project.

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Message 330034 - Posted: 7 Jun 2006, 20:04:04 UTC - in response to Message 330030.  

It is over

Are there any site providing optimized clients?
in a message from Crunch3r he has deleted the source code and asked that everyone remove it from their computers.

There is no need for a Strike, there were no winners. There is a need to get the credit system fixed...

So it time to go back to Work, Crunch Or Stop it is Your Choice please just do it quietly...

Pappa

You already said that here.
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Message boards : Number crunching : Strike requests


 
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