As stated previously, and I agree, the women were just as important not more important and vice versa. I do not want to see woman flipped to the direction of males in society, instead I only want to see the balance of power restored. It should not be one sided. You see it shouldnt be Male or Female over the other. The unity of both is the strength of the species. Without the one the other is useless. We NEED each other- period. (basic human reproduction there) The sacred female has almost been completely forgotten. I believe it needs to change.


Btw I am not a chick, just a guy that read a book and happens to agree with the author on the subject of women's place in the world.


Ah well good times. Glad to see people can actually discuss it without causing a riot.

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Plantery Society Member

laugh... my stupid mistake... sorry darkangelx

on a more serious note.. due to the nature of my work I am seeing more and more females achieving better exam results than males... in "some" software development courses, the courses are generally those that require multiple simultaneous processes interactions. perhaps an example of multitasking in abstract thought processes.?

conclusion: there definitly are differences in brain functioning between male and female.

Wow, there are some scary opinions in this thread and some outright misinterpretations of reality – to put it nicely.

A long long time ago most societies were matriarchal. It was obvious then that women were extremely important and that they created human life. Women were seen as the keepers of wisdom. They were often the hunters in most tribes and according to archaeologists most likely the inventors of farming. You can still see this in some African tribes were the men do little all day and are basically treated like pampered children. The women in those tribes do all the hunting, the farming and are responsible for trade with other tribes.

As people moved from hunter gatherers to farmers land became important. The idea of land ownership was invented, men discovered the relationship between sex and children and began to want ownership of their offspring. So began the change over from matriarchy to patriarchy. Women’s sexuality was controlled in order to ensure that men were not providing for someone else’s children. Religion was used, as usual, to control and keep the status quo and eventually women were relegated to nothing but chattel. Somewhere less in the hierarchy than pigs or sheep.

Over the last few thousand years the list of abuses against women has been horrific.. those that deny that are clearly ignorant and need to study their history. If you want me to go into I will, but it would take a long time.

David Stites seems to have forgotten that women only recently got the vote. Just a few decades ago they were unable to hold a bank account in their sole name. Husbands were allowed to beat their wives and if a woman wanted to leave she would lose her children. It was not so long ago that women were not allowed to gain degrees at university. They were discouraged from studying the sciences, Rosalind Franklin had her work stolen, with our which Crick and Watson would never have discovered DNA.

It’s funny how well women managed in this country during the second world war. They were allowed out of the kitchen and took over the traditionally male jobs while the men were at war. They thrived on it. They farmed, they did building work, they worked in factories. Everything that men could do, they did and they kept this country going.

In the 50s women who fell pregnant out of wedlock were locked up in insane asylums and subjected to ECT. The church and the male dominated society have tried to control women’s fertility for thousands of years. The pain and suffering caused by has been uncountable.

Science has tried to imply that women are less intelligent than men, because of smaller brain size..and yet in this country alone the school entrance exam boards had to have different pass grades for girls and boys because the girls in general scored consistently higher grades and there would have been a gender imbalance between girls and boys entering grammar schools in favour of girls.

So no, I am pretty sure that the feminist movement did not need to ‘invent’ the idea that men are in charge. Every women growing up in society for the last few thousand years has been well aware of it. All those women who receive lower pay than their male counterparts are well aware of it. All those women who get passed over for promotion in favour of male colleagues are well aware of it. All those women who work in the undervalued lower paid caring professions are well aware of it. All those women who are put on trial along with their rapist are well aware of it. All those women who are beaten by abusive partners are well aware of it. All those women who are left with the burden of childcare are well aware of it. All those women who see women used to sell products on the TV and in magazines are well aware of it. All those women who know that if she old or is not good looking she has less value than a good looking women (something that does not hold true for men) are well aware of it.

Do I really need to go on? Because if you don’t understand I can explain it some more.

Read "Who Stole Feminism?" and "The War Against Boys:How Misguided Feminism is harming our young men" by Christina Hoff Summers,PhD and feminist, and "The Myth of Male Power" by Warren Farrell,PhD and Feminist. You might also check out the web site of The Independent Womens Forum. If you have an open mind your eyes will be opened also. I could spell it out but I expect my posts to disappear now that CA is moderator. I can't imagine being around here much longer with one of the inmates in charge of the asylum. I haven't decided yet if I will still crunch for SETI, and just as I had reached 250,000 cobblestones.

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David Stites
Pullman, WA USA

Wow, there are some scary opinions in this thread and some outright misinterpretations of reality – to put it nicely.

A long long time ago most societies were matriarchal. It was obvious then that women were extremely important and that they created human life. Women were seen as the keepers of wisdom. They were often the hunters in most tribes and according to archaeologists most likely the inventors of farming. You can still see this in some African tribes were the men do little all day and are basically treated like pampered children. The women in those tribes do all the hunting, the farming and are responsible for trade with other tribes.

As people moved from hunter gatherers to farmers land became important. The idea of land ownership was invented, men discovered the relationship between sex and children and began to want ownership of their offspring. So began the change over from matriarchy to patriarchy. Women’s sexuality was controlled in order to ensure that men were not providing for someone else’s children. Religion was used, as usual, to control and keep the status quo and eventually women were relegated to nothing but chattel. Somewhere less in the hierarchy than pigs or sheep.

Over the last few thousand years the list of abuses against women has been horrific.. those that deny that are clearly ignorant and need to study their history. If you want me to go into I will, but it would take a long time.

David Stites seems to have forgotten that women only recently got the vote. Just a few decades ago they were unable to hold a bank account in their sole name. Husbands were allowed to beat their wives and if a woman wanted to leave she would lose her children. It was not so long ago that women were not allowed to gain degrees at university. They were discouraged from studying the sciences, Rosalind Franklin had her work stolen, with our which Crick and Watson would never have discovered DNA.

It’s funny how well women managed in this country during the second world war. They were allowed out of the kitchen and took over the traditionally male jobs while the men were at war. They thrived on it. They farmed, they did building work, they worked in factories. Everything that men could do, they did and they kept this country going.

In the 50s women who fell pregnant out of wedlock were locked up in insane asylums and subjected to ECT. The church and the male dominated society have tried to control women’s fertility for thousands of years. The pain and suffering caused by has been uncountable.

Science has tried to imply that women are less intelligent than men, because of smaller brain size..and yet in this country alone the school entrance exam boards had to have different pass grades for girls and boys because the girls in general scored consistently higher grades and there would have been a gender imbalance between girls and boys entering grammar schools in favour of girls.

So no, I am pretty sure that the feminist movement did not need to ‘invent’ the idea that men are in charge. Every women growing up in society for the last few thousand years has been well aware of it. All those women who receive lower pay than their male counterparts are well aware of it. All those women who get passed over for promotion in favour of male colleagues are well aware of it. All those women who work in the undervalued lower paid caring professions are well aware of it. All those women who are put on trial along with their rapist are well aware of it. All those women who are beaten by abusive partners are well aware of it. All those women who are left with the burden of childcare are well aware of it. All those women who see women used to sell products on the TV and in magazines are well aware of it. All those women who know that if she old or is not good looking she has less value than a good looking women (something that does not hold true for men) are well aware of it.

Do I really need to go on? Because if you don’t understand I can explain it some more.

Read "Who Stole Feminism?" and "The War Against Boys:How Misguided Feminism is harming our young men" by Christina Hoff Summers,PhD and feminist, and "The Myth of Male Power" by Warren Farrell,PhD and Feminist. You might also check out the web site of The Independent Womens Forum. If you have an open mind your eyes will be opened also. I could spell it out but I expect my posts to disappear now that CA is moderator. I can't imagine being around here much longer with one of the inmates in charge of the asylum. I haven't decided yet if I will still crunch for SETI, and just as I had reached 250,000 cobblestones.

Those are good references, Stites. Once feminism becomes bigotry that's acceptable to society at large then I part ways with them thoroughly. If the meaning of 'feminism' is just individualism then fine, let's just call it individualism and lose the sexist BS that those with deep rooted psychopathys cling to out of pure hate.
When lectures on anatomy at university campuses end up with student 'feminests' commenting that men should be castrated (literally) at birth it's not difficult to understand that feminism is the worst type of bigotry and is to be feared more than racism today because of it's widespread acceptance. All that evil needs to triumph is for good men to say nothing.

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Founder of BOINC team Objectivists. Oh the humanity! Rational people crunching data!
I did NOT authorize this belly writing!

I can't believe I actually find myself in agreement with Robert...

Feminism (as in equal rights) is okay and welcomed by me, but this 'movement' has gotten way out of hand to the point that there are far too many female 'man haters' running around out there who couldn't even tell you why they hate men in the first place, they just know that they do...

Personally, I don't know of any men who hate women in general... Heck, even gay guys adore having women around as friends...

All that evil needs to triumph is for good men [edit: and women] to say nothing.

Amen to that... ;)

Those are good references, Stites. Once feminism becomes bigotry that's acceptable to society at large then I part ways with them thoroughly. If the meaning of 'feminism' is just individualism then fine, let's just call it individualism and lose the sexist BS that those with deep rooted psychopathys cling to out of pure hate.
When lectures on anatomy at university campuses end up with student 'feminests' commenting that men should be castrated (literally) at birth it's not difficult to understand that feminism is the worst type of bigotry and is to be feared more than racism today because of it's widespread acceptance. All that evil needs to triumph is for good men to say nothing.

Are you accusing me of being a man hater here? Are you suggesting that I have ever in my life commented that men be castrated at birth? Please make your self clear, because what you've just posted sounds to me like lies and propaganda.

I have never in my life met a single woman who fits the picture you've just painted.

If you are going to insult me Robert you might want to try being a little more imaginative. Your little speech fits in there with stories that were once told about Jewish people eating babies in order to make them feared and hated.

You ask my two son's if I am a man hater. You ask all my many male friends, and then you take that slander back. You really have sunk lower than I thought you could.

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Reality Internet Personality

Science has tried to imply that women are less intelligent than men, because of smaller brain size

Like, when did science ever say that women were stupider because of that? I was presented with exactly this fact in Anthropology 1 almost 20 years ago, and it was immediately qualified with the statement "However, IQ test prove that the smaller cranial capacity in females does NOT translate to deficiencies in intelligence compared to males. It seems likely that the smaller bodies of females take less brain size to run, and therefore, intelligence remains comparitively identical in the sexes." Therefore, so sorry, Es99, 'luv', but you're WRONG there! Unless you've been taught by someone who was NOT being a scientist.

Aside from the fact the most brilliant person I had ever met was a girlfriend I had from 1989-1991! She wound up winning FOUR top student medals at university a few years later! And she didn't have a head that was any bigger than anyone else! I have run into some very intelligent guys as well, one of them I knew from Karate, having shared ONE of the above medals with that girl.
He was then to go on to study under Carl Sagan.


I think the problem we have today is that males are becoming obsolete for the most part - we are generally (no jeffrey, not unilaterally and without exception,) made to protect the home and family. In today's society, we are not needed. We are useful when war looms, but without males, war would likely be a thing of the past. In any event - you'll be just as dead if it's a female that shoots you.
I think men can find a good outlet in 'fight club' - they just need to join a martial art. It provides balance (for those who aren't mentally deranged) and it provides an outlet for aggression.

Females that claim males should be castrated at birth are definitely not a fantasy. I've heard that type talk before. Maybe not from Es99, but the rationale behind it sure does exist.

When I told one feminist in 1988 that 2 females could reproduce easily by taking the nucleus of one egg and inserting it into the nucleus of another egg to make a new female offspring, boy was she suddenly happy. I'd opened my mouth too much, because she was then preaching this idea to every female she could. She loved the idea of letting all the males die out. Interesting - a world filled with males only would be my idea of hell, whereas a world filled with females where I was the only male - that would sure be paradise, wouldn't it?! HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
(oh no, now jeffrey is going to spout off his fantasy as if it were reality)

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Never Forget a Friend. Or an Enemy.

Science has tried to imply that women are less intelligent than men, because of smaller brain size

Like, when did science ever say that women were stupider because of that? I was presented with exactly this fact in Anthropology 1 almost 20 years ago, and it was immediately qualified with the statement "However, IQ test prove that the smaller cranial capacity in females does NOT translate to deficiencies in intelligence compared to males. It seems likely that the smaller bodies of females take less brain size to run, and therefore, intelligence remains comparitively identical in the sexes." Therefore, so sorry, Es99, 'luv', but you're WRONG there! Unless you've been taught by someone who was NOT being a scientist.

You've entirely missed the point of what I was saying. Please read again, science didn't start 20 years ago. Study your history, try going back as far as the 1800s and you'll find 'luv', that I'm not wrong.

..snipped because irrelevant..

I think the problem we have today is that males are becoming obsolete for the most part - we are generally (no jeffrey, not unilaterally and without exception,) made to protect the home and family. In today's society, we are not needed. We are useful when war looms, but without males, war would likely be a thing of the past. In any event - you'll be just as dead if it's a female that shoots you.

True, men (in general) have failed to catch up to the changes in society and are still clinging on to the past.

I think men can find a good outlet in 'fight club' - they just need to join a martial art. It provides balance (for those who aren't mentally deranged) and it provides an outlet for aggression.

Good advice for anyone, male or female.

Females that claim males should be castrated at birth are definitely not a fantasy. I've heard that type talk before. Maybe not from Es99, but the rationale behind it sure does exist.

When I told one feminist in 1988 that 2 females could reproduce easily by taking the nucleus of one egg and inserting it into the nucleus of another egg to make a new female offspring, boy was she suddenly happy. I'd opened my mouth too much, because she was then preaching this idea to every female she could. She loved the idea of letting all the males die out. Interesting - a world filled with males only would be my idea of hell, whereas a world filled with females where I was the only male - that would sure be paradise, wouldn't it?! HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
(oh no, now jeffrey is going to spout off his fantasy as if it were reality)

I'm sure she was joking, or of she wasn't she is in a minority. If us women weren't so soft on men and so taken with them the world would be a very different place. Feminism has always been about women (and men) having more choices. If a woman wants to stay home and raise children she should be able to do that. If she wants to go and be a brainsurgeon then she should have as much as a chance as a man does of doing so.

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Reality Internet Personality

I'm sure she was joking, or of she wasn't she is in a minority. If us women weren't so soft on men and so taken with them the world would be a very different place. Feminism has always been about women (and men) having more choices. If a woman wants to stay home and raise children she should be able to do that. If she wants to go and be a brainsurgeon then she should have as much as a chance as a man does of doing so.

I don't know the individual involved, but there is an extremely vocal minority of women who would like to rid the world of men. Their rhetoric is absolutist and anti-male; it is not the rhetoric of a reasonable gender-equality activist. Unfortunately, the tiny anti-male movement seems to have hijacked some mainstream feminist movements.

"All men are rapists and that's all they are."
Marilyn French, Author; (later, advisor to Al Gore's Presidential Campaign.)

"Men who are unjustly accused of rape can sometimes gain from the experience."
Catherine Comin, Vassar College. Assistant Dean of Students.

"I want to see a man beaten to a bloody pulp with a high-heel shoved in his mouth, like an apple in the mouth of a pig."
Andrea Dworkin, from her book Ice and Fire

"I feel that 'man-hating' is an honorable and viable political act, that the oppressed have a right to class-hatred against the class that is oppressing them."
Robin Morgan, Ms. Magazine Editor.

All sex, even consensual sex between a married couple, is an act of violence perpetrated against a woman."
Catherine MacKinnon

"Life in this society being, at best, an utter bore and no aspect of society being at all relevant to women, there remains to civic-minded, responsible, thrill-seeking females only to overthrow the government, eliminate the money system, institute complete automation, and destroy the male sex."
Valerie Solana

No one, except maybe the women who uttered these statements, believes that a majority of women think this way. However, many believe that these statements are representative of the special interest groups' leadership. People who discount shrill hate speech then tune out the special interest group no matter what it is saying. Such shrillness is thus counter-productive.

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No animals were harmed in the making of the above post... much.

What does that mean, 'shrilly' anyway? I understood that Brit usage to be the sound of someone's voice when they're upset, but it seems it might mean something else?

Anyway,

try going back as far as the 1800s

might actually have been the attitude then, but so what? People thought the bumps on their skull also denoted intelligence; two great MALE paleontologists quarreled over exactly that. Your statement doesn't apply to even 20 years ago, let alone today.

It's been my sad fate to discover that females taking martial arts don't become any less nagging. They are even more agressive, because they have to play an agressive game on men's terms. That's fine and dandy if a female would like to do that (If I have a daughter, she's doing M.A.!)but it makes them less "feminine". Not that a 'barbie girl' is a desired alternative.

Men will find their roles in our society. I already look on the younger generation and see things in them that I would never have and never do. Men are adaptable - so long as they reject religious fundaMENTALism. They will adapt.
Women will be happy to have a stronger, larger, quicker specimen to rely on when the going gets rough. Also to kill spiders in the bathroom.
Men will be glad to have someone who will be gentle, caring and DAMN good-lookin'.

You can't get rid of one sex and make the world a better place by doing it. You could get rid of war by other means, and getting rid of all the men doesn't guarantee you get rid of war. As I recall, the Amazons were said to engage in war and mercenary pursuits often enough. By the way, that chick 18 years ago was damn serious. As the term wore on, she got worse.

We should have equilibrium of the sexes, not identicality. Men need not adjust themselves to women's way of doing things, any more than women need to do that for men.


Those quotes Octagon, would be humorous if they weren't full of such hatred. Let's return hate for hate, though - let's tie down those women, prop their eyelids open like in 'clockwork orange' and make them watch hour after hour of men only WWE. Everytime a female wrestler hits a guy on screen, they get shocked. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

What really gets under my skin is that it's fine and dandy for some broad to come out with 'all men are rapists', but if I was in earnest putting forth that 'all women wanted to be raped', well than what would happen to me, eh?! Oh, what a horrible, detestable, vile demon I would be! Sure, it's fine to go one way, but not another! It's like Chris Rock's jokes.

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Never Forget a Friend. Or an Enemy.

What does that mean, 'shrilly' anyway? I understood that Brit usage to be the sound of someone's voice when they're upset, but it seems it might mean something else?

A shrill statement is one made in a piercing cannot-be-ignored tone, such as screaming. When refering to text, it gerenally refers to the content being so angry or hateful as to be offensive. I've seen the word 'shrill' get over-used, too, and sometimes it might indicate that the quoter regards the speaker as permanently excited about an issue and to be regarded as the-boy-who-cried-wolf.

I was using the angry/hateful content sense.

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No animals were harmed in the making of the above post... much.

What you yourself are doing is hijacking the points I made to push your own agenda.

It seems that we are all in agreement that there is a small minority of women who feel very bitter indeed towards men. They really are not representative of the female populace in general and there existence in no way detracts from any of the points I made earlier.

Attitudes that beset society 100 years ago are representative because their echoes still reverberate today. To understand something now, you must understand it's history. No problem appears out of a vacuum. The example I gave is one of how science can be used to justify and support what are actually prejudices. These prejudices continue to exist in one form or another, weaker than they perhaps once were, but it takes more than a couple of generations to undo the effects of thousands of years of oppression.

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Reality Internet Personality

I'm sure she was joking, or of she wasn't she is in a minority. If us women weren't so soft on men and so taken with them the world would be a very different place. Feminism has always been about women (and men) having more choices. If a woman wants to stay home and raise children she should be able to do that. If she wants to go and be a brainsurgeon then she should have as much as a chance as a man does of doing so.

I don't know the individual involved, but there is an extremely vocal minority of women who would like to rid the world of men. Their rhetoric is absolutist and anti-male; it is not the rhetoric of a reasonable gender-equality activist. Unfortunately, the tiny anti-male movement seems to have hijacked some mainstream feminist movements.

"All men are rapists and that's all they are."
Marilyn French, Author; (later, advisor to Al Gore's Presidential Campaign.)

"Men who are unjustly accused of rape can sometimes gain from the experience."
Catherine Comin, Vassar College. Assistant Dean of Students.

"I want to see a man beaten to a bloody pulp with a high-heel shoved in his mouth, like an apple in the mouth of a pig."
Andrea Dworkin, from her book Ice and Fire

"I feel that 'man-hating' is an honorable and viable political act, that the oppressed have a right to class-hatred against the class that is oppressing them."
Robin Morgan, Ms. Magazine Editor.

All sex, even consensual sex between a married couple, is an act of violence perpetrated against a woman."
Catherine MacKinnon

"Life in this society being, at best, an utter bore and no aspect of society being at all relevant to women, there remains to civic-minded, responsible, thrill-seeking females only to overthrow the government, eliminate the money system, institute complete automation, and destroy the male sex."
Valerie Solana

No one, except maybe the women who uttered these statements, believes that a majority of women think this way. However, many believe that these statements are representative of the special interest groups' leadership. People who discount shrill hate speech then tune out the special interest group no matter what it is saying. Such shrillness is thus counter-productive.

ES99, As I was reading the query you put to me regarding my particular posting about support of castration of males I prepared to respond but found the post by Octagon to be thorough enough to make my response unneccessary except to quote him. I can't make the response about the hatred and bigotry of feminism more clearly stated.

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Founder of BOINC team Objectivists. Oh the humanity! Rational people crunching data!
I did NOT authorize this belly writing!

The question remains, 'What is it that you are after? What is the goal of this idealogy of feminism?'

What is the end result of its pursuit?

Equal rights? Women have that and it's prescribed in law everywhere in the west.

The ability to vote? Done.

Equal rights to hold property or speak or exercise any other such rights that men enjoy? Done....and this has been so for decades.

Like I said earlier, if you wish to further the rights of women (or anyone for that matter) then uphold the value of INDIVIDUALISM and jettison the rest of the bigoted nonsense as it is baggage that encumbers your cause. At some point, an honest person should question the benevolence of your agenda.

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Founder of BOINC team Objectivists. Oh the humanity! Rational people crunching data!
I did NOT authorize this belly writing!

I can't make the response about the hatred and bigotry of feminism more clearly stated.

Please don't throw out the baby with the bathwater on this issue. To paint all of feminism with the same broad brush only strengthens the position of the nutjobs who claim to speak for the whole movement and, by extension, all women.

Look at iFeminists for a very different take on gender issues. They advocate equal treatment under the law, not the codified advantages sought by the 'mainstream' feminists.

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No animals were harmed in the making of the above post... much.

I can't make the response about the hatred and bigotry of feminism more clearly stated.

Please don't throw out the baby with the bathwater on this issue. To paint all of feminism with the same broad brush only strengthens the position of the nutjobs who claim to speak for the whole movement and, by extension, all women.

Look at iFeminists for a very different take on gender issues. They advocate equal treatment under the law, not the codified advantages sought by the 'mainstream' feminists.

Octagon, as stated earlier if advocacy for equal protection under the law is the aim then I'm a feminist too, by definition. Nothing that is apologetic for this movement that, in many people's view, has harmed women, men, and society at large will sway the negative opinion of it that is so well deserved. There is no such thing as a 'good' feminest or a 'good' racist or a 'good' bigot. Moral standards apply to them and to ignore those standards only encourages the sick ethics that those idealogies embrace as core to their nature.

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Founder of BOINC team Objectivists. Oh the humanity! Rational people crunching data!
I did NOT authorize this belly writing!

Octagon, as stated earlier if advocacy for equal protection under the law is the aim then I'm a feminist too, by definition.

My point was that the term feminism isn't very clearly defined. Some groups calling themselves feminists are seeking equal protection under the law, others have incompatible goals.

Nothing that is apologetic for this movement that, in many people's view, has harmed women, men, and society at large will sway the negative opinion of it that is so well deserved. There is no such thing as a 'good' feminest or a 'good' racist or a 'good' bigot. Moral standards apply to them and to ignore those standards only encourages the sick ethics that those idealogies embrace as core to their nature.

IMHO, many women look at the Radical Left Fringe Feminists and silently scream "GET OFF MY SIDE!" It's like trying to have a rational debate about any other serious issue and having extremists show up that make one side look like raving lunatics. ("We have the right to bear arms, including machine guns and RPGs and anti-aircraft batteries!")

EDIT: Spelling

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No animals were harmed in the making of the above post... much.

Octagon, as stated earlier if advocacy for equal protection under the law is the aim then I'm a feminist too, by definition.

My point was that the term feminism isn't very clearly defined. Some groups calling themselves feminists are seeking equal protection under the law, others have incompatible goals.

Nothing that is apologetic for this movement that, in many people's view, has harmed women, men, and society at large will sway the negative opinion of it that is so well deserved. There is no such thing as a 'good' feminest or a 'good' racist or a 'good' bigot. Moral standards apply to them and to ignore those standards only encourages the sick ethics that those idealogies embrace as core to their nature.

IMHO, many women look at the Radical Left Fringe Feminists and silently scream "GET OFF MY SIDE!" It's like trying to have a rational debate about any other serious issue and having extremists show up that make one side look like raving lunatics. ("We have the right to bear arms, including machine guns and RPGs and anti-aircraft batteries!")

EDIT: Spelling

I agree. But the question still remains.....what does it (the 'movement') seek? As I've pointed out earlier all of the equal protection under the law agendas have been achieved, except perhaps in Africa and/or other 3rd world nations. So what is feminism doing? Noone knows it seems. They do alot of hating and absorb themselves with the hobby of souring the minds of some young impressionable women on ideas of romance and love, but besides that I don't see any value in it.

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Founder of BOINC team Objectivists. Oh the humanity! Rational people crunching data!
I did NOT authorize this belly writing!

Which defininition of feminism are you talking about? There are many feminist theories around. There is Liberal Feminism, Radical Feminism, Marxist Feminism, Socialist Feminism, the list goes on. Also feminism cannot be separated out from race and class. It is about power relations not whether a few of us want to chop your gonads off. For the number of 'rational' thinkers here there's seems to be a lot of irrational fear about what women/feminists want to do to them. The quotations are very selective and out of context. Valerie Solanas wrote the SCUM manifesto in 1968 (when I bought my copy) which struck a chord with quite a few women, but those were early days of the Women's Movement.

And Robert Brooke calling himself a feminist, give me a break.....

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The quotations are very selective and out of context. Valerie Solanas wrote the SCUM manifesto in 1968 (when I bought my copy) which struck a chord with quite a few women, but those were early days of the Women's Movement.

What about the sufferage movements in the mid 1800s and early 1900s? This was a huge step for equal rights. Women began going to universities and began taking a larger role in the work place. In 1869 women were allowed to vote in Wyoming, but that's just for the U.S.

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TEAM
LL