And as I am paranoid, therefore I run Linux :)

... and according to your account, Windows.

(which brings us back to why my computers are hidden)

---

And as I am paranoid, therefore I run Linux :)

... and according to your account, Windows.

(which brings us back to why my computers are hidden)

Actually, those Windows machines don't belong to me. Again *I* run Linux.

---

I conform to the idea that someone who has 301,000 RAC, while at the same time hiding their computers, could be...and it only raises the question. As I have said many times before, questions will be asked. For that matter, anyone who has 301,000 RAC should be looked at. But not by you or me, but by those who serve in a decision making capacity.

That still includes the companies that test new OSes and new CPUs that they don't want to show to the public.

Then having only the choices of either "show all you have plus credit/RAC and be included in the XML files" or "show nothing at all and not be included in the XML files" just makes the choice for those who do want to cheat by way of a worm/trojan/virus easier.

Unless people expect that the already overworked Server/Network crew at Seti sits through thousands of participants with more than 5,000 RAC who are using "the new way of hiding my resources" option. As if they have nothing better to do. Or do you expect Matt, Jeff, Bob and others to go run a 24/7 shift just so they can check up on them?

I hope they are allowed to see their families at least once every x couple of days they want? :)

---

I conform to the idea that someone who has 301,000 RAC, while at the same time hiding their computers, could be...and it only raises the question. As I have said many times before, questions will be asked. For that matter, anyone who has 301,000 RAC should be looked at. But not by you or me, but by those who serve in a decision making capacity.

That still includes the companies that test new OSes and new CPUs that they don't want to show to the public.

Then having only the choices of either "show all you have plus credit/RAC and be included in the XML files" or "show nothing at all and not be included in the XML files" just makes the choice for those who do want to cheat by way of a worm/trojan/virus easier.

Unless people expect that the already overworked Server/Network crew at Seti sits through thousands of participants with more than 5,000 RAC who are using "the new way of hiding my resources" option. As if they have nothing better to do. Or do you expect Matt, Jeff, Bob and others to go run a 24/7 shift just so they can check up on them?

I hope they are allowed to see their families at least once every x couple of days they want? :)

flew right over your head eh?

---

Then having only the choices of either "show all you have plus credit/RAC and be included in the XML files" or "show nothing at all and not be included in the XML files" just makes the choice for those who do want to cheat by way of a worm/trojan/virus easier.

agreed
I would think that if the above was implemented, someone wanting to cheat would simply hide their computers, submit results with a "CG" method for a period to amass high total/RAC and then clean up their account before unhiding their computers. Presumably someone able to do a "CG" is also capable of removing seti from the machines with a similar method.
In that situation nothing would appear untoward at all.

---

And as I am paranoid, therefore I run Linux :)

... and according to your account, Windows.

(which brings us back to why my computers are hidden)

Actually, those Windows machines don't belong to me. Again *I* run Linux.

I'm as paranoid as any other "windows" user. But yet I run windows. When I started out on computers some 10-15 years ago, I learned a lot, the hard way. But yet, I continue to run one of the most hated OS's. Why? Because I don't have the time to learn anything different. My family, my job, my other priorities take presidence over computers.

As far as the whole "hiding" bit. Mine are both open. Look as you wish. I could care less. :-)

As I said before in this thread. I wish it would die. It served its purpose, now its just a thread about "My computer is better than yours, My OS is better than yours, I'm better than you are". Personally, I could care less who's better than who. I'm here for science. Not credits.

---

I conform to the idea that someone who has 301,000 RAC, while at the same time hiding their computers, could be...and it only raises the question. As I have said many times before, questions will be asked. For that matter, anyone who has 301,000 RAC should be looked at. But not by you or me, but by those who serve in a decision making capacity.

That still includes the companies that test new OSes and new CPUs that they don't want to show to the public.

Then having only the choices of either "show all you have plus credit/RAC and be included in the XML files" or "show nothing at all and not be included in the XML files" just makes the choice for those who do want to cheat by way of a worm/trojan/virus easier.

Unless people expect that the already overworked Server/Network crew at Seti sits through thousands of participants with more than 5,000 RAC who are using "the new way of hiding my resources" option. As if they have nothing better to do. Or do you expect Matt, Jeff, Bob and others to go run a 24/7 shift just so they can check up on them?

I hope they are allowed to see their families at least once every x couple of days they want? :)

flew right over your head eh?

Leaving everything in as well... learn to post with the right quote.

I made two statements in the post and asked two questions. Care to answer what you were talking about, yet at the next post, by using your shift button, mouse and delete button, to take out those little bits of the post you don't need, nor are answering to?

---

And as I am paranoid, therefore I run Linux :)

... and according to your account, Windows.

(which brings us back to why my computers are hidden)

Actually, those Windows machines don't belong to me. Again *I* run Linux.

I'm as paranoid as any other "windows" user. But yet I run windows. When I started out on computers some 10-15 years ago, I learned a lot, the hard way. But yet, I continue to run one of the most hated OS's. Why? Because I don't have the time to learn anything different. My family, my job, my other priorities take presidence over computers.

As far as the whole "hiding" bit. Mine are both open. Look as you wish. I could care less. :-)

As I said before in this thread. I wish it would die. It served its purpose, now its just a thread about "My computer is better than yours, My OS is better than yours, I'm better than you are". Personally, I could care less who's better than who. I'm here for science. Not credits.

I didn't take anyones comments to mean that way, i don't think thsi thread turned into an OS bash...

I started out using various flavors of *nix and never caught on to the Windows thing...I have forgotten more about Linux than I ever knew about Windows. My WinFoo is weak....to say the least.

---

I conform to the idea that someone who has 301,000 RAC, while at the same time hiding their computers, could be...and it only raises the question. As I have said many times before, questions will be asked. For that matter, anyone who has 301,000 RAC should be looked at. But not by you or me, but by those who serve in a decision making capacity.

That still includes the companies that test new OSes and new CPUs that they don't want to show to the public.

Then having only the choices of either "show all you have plus credit/RAC and be included in the XML files" or "show nothing at all and not be included in the XML files" just makes the choice for those who do want to cheat by way of a worm/trojan/virus easier.

Unless people expect that the already overworked Server/Network crew at Seti sits through thousands of participants with more than 5,000 RAC who are using "the new way of hiding my resources" option. As if they have nothing better to do. Or do you expect Matt, Jeff, Bob and others to go run a 24/7 shift just so they can check up on them?

I hope they are allowed to see their families at least once every x couple of days they want? :)

flew right over your head eh?

Leaving everything in as well... learn to post with the right quote.

I made two statements in the post and asked two questions. Care to answer what you were talking about, yet at the next post, by using your shift button, mouse and delete button, to take out those little bits of the post you don't need, nor are answering to?

Maybe it would be easier for you to learn to parse quotes. Quoting myself and your response...well...is exactly what I wanted to do.

---

The real mess is that of the shoddy Windows OSes that support viruses and trojans and all the other long term exploits in the first place!

Trojans in particular are not windows-specific. Trojans are particular to users who are just a little tiny bit too trusting.

If Linux was as widespread as Windows, we'd see a whole lot more Linux trojans.

Viruses are a different story, you can harden an OS against those.

You can send me a Windows or a Linux specific Trojan if you wish. It will not automatically get executed. And even if it did get executed, it would at worst compromise only one user account and be restricted by that account. The open source community would distribute a fix within hours of noticing anything detrimental. And the source is open and is ferociously scrutinised so there is no hiding any inadequacies.

In contrast, I consider Windows to have deep fundamental security flaws that are largely driven by Microsoft specific Marketing requirements. To my knowledge, Microsoft OSes are the only OSes that support viruses, trojans and worms. There is likely a continuing deep can of worms there to be slowly revealed for some time yet.

Regards,
Martin

No anti-virus and no anti-trojans here. Just plain simple proven security of over 35 years of unix history. (And this system is not MS Windows.)

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

<snip>

In contrast, I consider Windows to have deep fundamental security flaws that are largely driven by Microsoft specific Marketing requirements. To my knowledge, Microsoft OSes are the only OSes that support viruses, trojans and worms. There is likely a continuing deep can of worms there to be slowly revealed for some time yet.

I have to disagree. MS market what customers want.
IMO, If 95% of the PC community (computer savvy and computer illiterate together) suddenly became *nix users, those user demands would immediately and continuously open the systems to all the very same exploits as Windows - the user gets what the user wants.
They want their Valentines' Day Card e-mail to show the graphics and play the music as soon as it's received - the romance is somehow diminished by; "Click here to open the attachement", "are you really sure?", "Warning, Doing This might damage your computer"

There is nothing magic about *nix OSs, they're written in C just like 'doze with exactly the same cr*p memory handling that leads programmers to write-in buffer overflows - probably the biggest source of all security issues.

Then of course there is the fact that there are so few *nix system, and most of those in the hands of fairly security savvy users. To spread, a virus needs to find other hosts that arn't immune (protected) they can infect. Just finding another *nix host randomly hitting IP addresses is hard enough, let alone one that's vulnerable.

The virus writers simply dont bother to target a sector with so little chance of success.

Regards,
Martin

No anti-virus and no anti-trojans here. Just plain simple proven security of over 35 years of unix history. (And this system is not MS Windows.)

---

I love my Linux :)

---

<snip>
In contrast, I consider Windows to have deep fundamental security flaws that are largely driven by Microsoft specific Marketing requirements. To my knowledge, Microsoft OSes are the only OSes that support viruses, trojans and worms. There is likely a continuing deep can of worms there to be slowly revealed for some time yet.

I have to disagree. MS market what customers want.

That is an overly naive view that ignores Marketing coercion...

Do you really know what you want? Do you have it in the computer that you use now?

...They want their Valentines' Day Card e-mail to show the graphics and play the music as soon as it's received - the romance is somehow diminished by; "Click here to open the attachment", "are you really sure?", "Warning, Doing This might damage your computer"

That sort of verbosity and intrusive irritating pop-up dialogue messages that demand immediate attention are a strange nastiness unique to Windows applications. I've never suffered such intrusiveness in other GUI systems.

And you can safely display your Valentine greeting immediately without the need of MS Windows ActiveX that arrogantly takes over complete control of that OS.

There is nothing magic about *nix OSes, they're written in C just like 'doze with exactly the same cr*p memory handling that leads programmers to write-in buffer overflows - probably the biggest source of all security issues.

Indeed so. The big difference is that such crap warts and grot are all publicly visible for all to see. Such crap is quickly cleared out and Open Source peer pressure keeps it out. The peer pressure is usually positive and the programmers quickly learn not to write crap in the first place.

Non open source software can hide any amount of crap that can then embarrassingly slowly ooze out...

Special note: I am not saying that non open source software is all bad. Only that you cannot know whether or not it is good or bad because the world must have blind faith in what the one writer/source says for their own software...

Then of course there is the fact that there are so few *nix system, and ... The virus writers simply don't bother to target a sector with so little chance of success.

Really? Note that most of the internet is run by *nix systems, including the crucial corporate stuff for Microsoft themselves!

Most of the internet traffic is MS generated and MS targeted noise. This reduces the useful internet capacity and increases costs for everyone.


Regards,
Martin

[edit] Link added. [/edit]

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

Regards,
Martin

WELL SAID!

I wanted to add, so few *nix systems? That writer is living in a bubble.

---

You can send me a Windows or a Linux specific Trojan if you wish. It will not automatically get executed.

Trojans won't get executed here automatically either.

My point was that the problem isn't with the OS.

It's just too easy to trick some users into opening attachments that they should not open.

---

You can send me a Windows or a Linux specific Trojan if you wish. It will not automatically get executed.

Trojans won't get executed here automatically either.

My point was that the problem isn't with the OS.

It's just too easy to trick some users into opening attachments that they should not open.

And THAT is the whole point!

The OS should not be so vulnerable that users must have a Computer Science Masters Degree to tiptoe around and think thrice before any click.

As a "normal unprivileged" user, you should be completely free to click at anything you want and do nothing worse than mess up the icons on your desktop.

However, the current vulnerabilities and usual practice with the Microsoft OSes are such that a completely ignorant user can completely innocently modify that OS with just one random click. And no 'intelligence' to hack in required: You can delete most of the system by will or mistake or random action. Worse still, websites can have the freedom to maliciously do anything they wish to that OS without the user's knowledge. Its a little like driving a car (automobile) that has the controls randomly placed and where some will random self-destruct when touched.


The fault is not with the users. I consider the problems to be fully with that one OS that is so shoddily vulnerable.

Computers should Just Simply Work, simply, consistently, reliably, and without fear of getting hijacked for Marketing or Spamming purposes.

In contrast, the *nix OSes are not perfect, but they are many years ahead for reliability and usability.

Regards,
Martin

(Clearly, I am not making use of a Microsoft OS here.)

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

It's just too easy to trick some users into opening attachments that they should not open.

And THAT is the whole point!

The OS should not be so vulnerable that users must have a Computer Science Masters Degree to tiptoe around and think thrice before any click.

Martin,

You need to get ahold of a copy of "The Art of Deception" by Kevin Mitnick, and read it.

It isn't the OS. There are people out there who will run anything without a second thought.

Should Linux become more popular, more of those people will be running Linux, and they will figure out how to load Trojans if they are asked properly.

-- Ned

---

It's just too easy to trick some users into opening attachments that they should not open.

And THAT is the whole point!

The OS should not be so vulnerable that users must have a Computer Science Masters Degree to tiptoe around and think thrice before any click.

Martin,

You need to get ahold of a copy of "The Art of Deception" by Kevin Mitnick, and read it.

It isn't the OS. There are people out there who will run anything without a second thought.

Should Linux become more popular, more of those people will be running Linux, and they will figure out how to load Trojans if they are asked properly.

-- Ned

I disagree. Most Linux users I know are fairly savvy at it. Ain't nothing getting past me.

---

It's just too easy to trick some users into opening attachments that they should not open.

And THAT is the whole point!

The OS should not be so vulnerable that users must have a Computer Science Masters Degree to tiptoe around and think thrice before any click.

Martin,

You need to get ahold of a copy of "The Art of Deception" by Kevin Mitnick, and read it.

It isn't the OS. There are people out there who will run anything without a second thought.

Should Linux become more popular, more of those people will be running Linux, and they will figure out how to load Trojans if they are asked properly.

-- Ned

I disagree. Most Linux users I know are fairly savvy at it. Ain't nothing getting past me.

Yes there are people dumb enough out there to not even realise what a program or executable is, let alone what is on their host and what is on some server... No deception required even!

The main point still stands. A user should be able to use their system as they wish, without fear of deception or whatever hijacking their computer.

I pretty much have that here with this Linux system.

Note that you can still have executables run for the sake of fancy web stuff. Your system (OS) should use a properly sandboxed java for example rather than some rampant infectious ActiveX. (Yes, you can get additional Windows bolt-on anti-virus and "internet security" to catch the presently known exploits, but that is like trying to plug holes in a colander!)

The OS can enforce good behaviour, and totally defeat attempts to install software by an unprivileged user.

A major problem with Windows for the user is the many ways in which executables can be run without that user ever knowing... Ideal for many kinds of maliciousness.

The sort of deception required to get a *nix user to change to "root" (if they can), and then to go through a number of steps to then infect their system, is many times more difficult than the present (easy) Windows exploits. You can argue that some of the Linux distros thwart even that deception (LiveCDs).


Simply put: The OS should be secure enough that it can survive any idiocy by the user, including deception. This can be done, and has been done for many years now. Windows is a notable exception.

Regards,
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

I have to agree with Ned, it is the requirement, perceived or actual, that computers need to be easy to use for the masses, and the popularity of Windows that helps the wriyers of Virus's and Trojan's etc.

In the early 90's if you owned a computer, you had to know how to configure it, what equipment was installed and attached to be able to instal and operate programs.

Most organisations that I worked in in those days usually had the PC's boot straight into the user's only program, i.e. word processor (WP 5) or speadsheet (Lotus 123). Or had simple menu system to open them.

To run games my youngest son, now 22, used make boot disks and write autoexec.bat and config.sys files to run different games, so that the games could use either extended or expanded RAM, see the graphics and sound cards etc.

Today's user's want instant gratification and, probably, would not own a computer if they had to do that for every program they run. MS's problem was making an OS's that was backward's compatible but easy to (ab)use.

Note Mac's lack of popularity, because with just about every OS change you need new Hardware and program versions, and hence high cost of ownership. And if you don't believe that just go to the help desk and see the number of posts from owner's of pre OS X machines unhappy because they can no longer partake in BOINC. But I assume that as BOINC/Seti runs on Win95 it is probably usable with DOS only.

Linux is percieved as difficult to use and not always guaranteed to work to full capabilities of hardware fitted or attached, even if you can find a driver.

Until other OS's are easy, hardware is cheap and you can take work home without problem's windows is here to stay. Even if the method's used by MS to get to there present position were devious and underhand, like charging less than a pound sterling per employee to have a company with 25,000 employee's to standardise on Win 3.1.1 and MS office programs.

Andy