Political Thread [12] - CLOSED

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Message 218469 - Posted: 20 Dec 2005, 4:24:23 UTC
Last modified: 20 Dec 2005, 4:30:23 UTC

Hmmm...

I remember a time not so long ago in America when the masses thought of rock n roll as devil music.

Maybe they were right. ;)
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Message 218474 - Posted: 20 Dec 2005, 4:26:24 UTC - in response to Message 218469.  

I remember a time not so long ago in America when the masses thought of rock-n-roll as devil music.

When Elvis Presley = Elvis the Pelvis!
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Message 219063 - Posted: 21 Dec 2005, 4:24:37 UTC

Iran president bans Western music on state-run TV, radio

By Nasser Karimi
ASSOCIATED PRESS

December 20, 2005

TEHRAN, Iran – Hard-line President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has banned all Western music from Iran's state radio and TV stations – an eerie reminder of the 1979 Islamic revolution when popular music was outlawed as "un-Islamic" under Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini.

Today, though, the sounds of hip-hop can be heard blaring from car radios in Tehran's streets, and songs by Eric Clapton, Kenny G., George Michael and the Eagles regularly accompany Iranian broadcasts.

No more – the official IRAN Persian daily reported yesterday that Ahmadinejad, as head of the Supreme Cultural Revolutionary Council, ordered the enactment of an October ruling by the council to ban all Western music, including classical music, on state broadcast outlets.

"Blocking indecent and Western music from the Islamic Republic of Iran Broadcasting is required," according to a statement on the council's official Web site.

Iranian guitarist Babak Riahipour lamented what he called a "terrible" decision. "The decision shows a lack of knowledge and experience," he said.

Music was outlawed by Khomeini, who said it was "intoxicating," soon after the 1979 revolution. Many musicians went abroad and built an Iranian music industry in Los Angeles. But these days, Western music, films and clothing are widely available in Iran. Bootleg videos and DVDs of films banned by the state are widely available on the black market.

The order by Ahmadinejad, who won office in August on a platform of reverting to ultraconservative principles, means the state broadcasting authority must execute the decree and prepare a report on its implementation within six months, the IRAN daily said.

The ban applies to state-run radio and television, and includes censorship of film content. But Iranians with satellite dishes can get broadcasts originating outside the country.

The council has also issued a ban on foreign movies that promote "arrogant powers," an apparent reference to the United States.
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Message 219064 - Posted: 21 Dec 2005, 4:25:08 UTC

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Message 219171 - Posted: 21 Dec 2005, 10:12:51 UTC


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Message 219181 - Posted: 21 Dec 2005, 10:43:53 UTC

Misfit and Dogbytes,
You must realise that the NSA don't have to be in the USA to carry out their mission. So it is probably not illegal.
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Message 219208 - Posted: 21 Dec 2005, 12:12:46 UTC - in response to Message 219181.  
Last modified: 21 Dec 2005, 12:13:17 UTC

Misfit and Dogbytes,
You must realise that the NSA don't have to be in the USA to carry out their mission. So it is probably not illegal.


Stalin had the same arguement about the NKVD and the GRU.
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Message 219246 - Posted: 21 Dec 2005, 14:17:03 UTC

Electronic surveillance of foreigners within the United States is nothing new. When the current FISA laws were enacted during the Carter administration (late 1970's), the White House's position was that the Commander in Chief has the inherent authority to conduct intelligence operations on American soil without any hint of criminal justice procedure. From the begining, not all wiretapping operations went thru the "secrect court" depending on the White House's perceived needs for timeliness or absolute secrecy. This was the position of the Carter White House, the Reagan White House, the first Bush White House, the Clinton White House, and the second Bush White House. That's almost 30 years of Congress being told that the White House will ignore the law if it's inconvenient, and Congress going along with it.

Members of the Clinton Administration testified before Congress that not only was wiretapping acceptable, but also physically ransacking a person's home or office. Not a blip of complaint from the liberal media or the Democrats in the legislature.

Note that I'm not saying the practice is morally right. I don't see why the president didn't go thru the motions of getting court orders, but I have an idea: in American politics, it is not unusual for politicians and political functionaries to assert authority needlessly just to ensure that the authority will be there should it ever be needed in the future.
No animals were harmed in the making of the above post... much.
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Message 219284 - Posted: 21 Dec 2005, 15:50:40 UTC

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Message 219286 - Posted: 21 Dec 2005, 15:52:31 UTC

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Message 219299 - Posted: 21 Dec 2005, 16:16:29 UTC

Mexico Promises to Block Border Wall Plan
By MARK STEVENSON
Associated Press Writer
Dec 20 7:02 PM US/Eastern


MEXICO CITY - The Mexican government, angered by a U.S. proposal to extend a wall along the border to keep out migrants, pledged Tuesday to block the plan and organize an international campaign against it. Facing a growing tide of anti-immigrant sentiment north of the border, the Mexican government has taken out ads urging Mexican workers to denounce rights violations in the United States. It also is hiring an American public relations firm to improve its image and counter growing U.S. concerns about immigration.

Mexican President Vicente Fox denounced the U.S. measures, passed by the House of Representatives on Friday, as "shameful" and his foreign secretary, Luis Ernesto Derbez, echoed his complaints on Tuesday.

"Mexico is not going to bear, it is not going to permit, and it will not allow a stupid thing like this wall," Derbez said.

"What has to be done is to raise a storm of criticism, as is already happening, against this," he said, promising to turn the international community against the plan.

Some stretches of the U.S.-Mexico border are already marked by fences, but in some heavily-trafficked sections walls have already been erected by the United States, often using 10-foot-high sections of military surplus steel. Those sections, which typically run several miles, can be found in southern Arizona and California.

It's hard to underestimate the ill-feeling the proposal has generated in Mexico, where editorial pages are dominated by cartoons of Uncle Sam putting up walls bearing anti-Mexican messages.

Many Mexicans, especially those who have spent time working in the U.S., feel the proposal is a slap in the face to those who work hard and contribute to the U.S. economy.

Fernando Robledo, 42, of the western state of Zacatecas, says the proposals could stem migration and disrupt families by breaking cross- border ties.

"When people heard this, it worried everybody, because this will affect everybody in some way, and their families," Robledo said. "They were incredulous. How could they do this, propose something like this?"

Robledo, whose son and mother are U.S. citizens, predicted the measure "would unleash conflict within the United States" as small businesses fail for lack of workers.

He said many Mexicans felt betrayed by the anti-immigrant sentiment.

"We learned to believe in the United States. We have a binational life," he said of Zacatecas, a state that has been sending migrants north for more than a century. "It isn't just a feeling of rejection. It's against what we see as part of our life, our culture, our territory."

The government is scrambling to fight on two fronts. On Monday, it announced it had hired Allyn & Company, a Dallas-based public relations company to help improve Mexico's image and stem the immigration backlash.

"If people in the U.S. and Canada had an accurate view of the success of democracy, political stability and economic prosperity in Mexico, it would improve their views on specific bilateral issues like immigration and border security," Rob Allyn, president of the PR firm, told The Associated Press Tuesday.

Jose Luis Soberanes, head of the government's National Human Rights Commission, suggested Mexico go further.

"I would expect more energetic reactions from our authorities," Soberanes told local media. "It's preferable to have a more demanding government, more confrontation with the United States."

Mexico has also said it is recruiting U.S. church, community and business groups to oppose the proposal.

And the government has stepped up its defense of migrants, airing a series of radio spots here aimed at migrants returning home for the holidays.

"Had a labor accident in the United States? You have rights ... Call," reads the ad, sponsored by Mexico's Foreign Relations Department, which has helped migrants bring compensation suits in the United States.

The sense of dread connected with the measures is hardly restricted to Mexico. Immigrant advocacy and aid groups in the United States are worried about provisions of the House bill that upgrade unlawful presence in the United States from a civil offense to a felony.

"It would have a horrific impact on immigrants right organizing and immigrant communities" in the United States, said Jennifer Allen of the Tucson, Ariz.-based Red de Accion Fronteriza.

The mistaken belief that the proposals are a done deal _ they must still be submitted to the Senate _ have caused "just complete fear and shock" among some activists and immigrants, Allen said.

The House bill, passed on a 239-182 vote, includes a proposal to build 700 miles of additional fence through parts of California, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas. It would also enlist military and local law enforcement to help stop illegal entrants and require employers to verify the legal status of their workers.

Mexicans are outraged by the proposed measures, especially the extension of the border wall, which many liken to the Berlin Wall. Some are urging their government to fight it fiercely.

"Our president should oppose that wall and make them stop it, at all costs," said Martin Vazquez, 26, at the Mexico City airport as he returned from his job as a hotel worker in Las Vegas. "More than just insulting, it's terrible."

---------------------

Could someone please explain to me why Mexico thinks it is unfair that the US is enforcing reasonable immigration laws? They are not challenging the laws, since any neutral third party would have to agree that countries have a natural right to secure their borders. And the political correct nuttiness of refusing to label illegal immigrants as 'illegal' is silly on its face. If you immigrated illegally, then you are an illegal immigrant.

The comparison to the Berlin Wall is inappropriate. The Berlin Wall (as well as the larger wall at the East German - West German border) was designed to keep people in, like a prison. The proposed southwest border wall is designed to keep people out, in effect making it harder for individuals to break the law.

There is room for debate on how US firms have come to exploit and even depend upon cheap migrant labor. Personally I think that firms caught with illegal workers should be fined punitively, with escalating penalities for repeat offenders. This will mean that legal workers lose their jobs when such firms go under... leading to political pressure on local governments and local businesses to put an end to the practice.

The practicality of detecting, arresting, processing and deporting millions of incumbant illegal aliens is daunting. Guest worker programs sound reasonable, except that businesses hire illegal workers for the sub-minimum-wage pay rates. A guest worker would have access to legal protections and a minimum wage... removing most of the incentive to hire that person in the first place.

There is a much simpler solution to the whole mess: If Mexico would do something really revolutionary like develop a healthy labor market in Mexico then there would be no "push" for this illegal immigration. There will always be some "pull," but vibrant economies on both sides of the border would do so much more for binational relations than any guest worker program ever could. Even the Central American illegal immigrants who simply traverse Mexico en route to the US might find it preferable to contribute to Mexico's economy instead of the US's (Mexico's government is always going on and on about how such immigrants are helpful to a national economy).

Mexico's President Fox insists on ignoring the elephant in the room. He could spin this whole situation into leverage for trade negociations (despite NAFTA, there are still many anti-Mexico trade barriers in the US), but either his personal pride or a profound ignorance of economics is preventing him from addressing the real problems. He already has the blood of unsuccessful illegal immigrants on his hands. What else does he need to start doing his job?

No animals were harmed in the making of the above post... much.
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Message 219306 - Posted: 21 Dec 2005, 16:34:23 UTC
Last modified: 21 Dec 2005, 16:46:05 UTC

You'll get no arguement from me on this one.
OMG, call for a press conference, Octagon and the Dog agree
on something. News at eleven...
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Message 219318 - Posted: 21 Dec 2005, 17:13:11 UTC - in response to Message 219306.  

You'll get no arguement from me on this one.
OMG, call for a press conference, Octagon and the Dog agree
on something. News at eleven...

Octagon, breathless from long effort, looked again at his target. Despite repeated lashings with a stick, the hornets' nest refused to react. "Perhaps they've all gone on holiday," he thought to himself.

:-)
No animals were harmed in the making of the above post... much.
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Message 219333 - Posted: 21 Dec 2005, 17:43:23 UTC - in response to Message 219318.  

You'll get no arguement from me on this one.
OMG, call for a press conference, Octagon and the Dog agree
on something. News at eleven...

Octagon, breathless from long effort, looked again at his target. Despite repeated lashings with a stick, the hornets' nest refused to react. "Perhaps they've all gone on holiday," he thought to himself.

:-)


I'm just standing back aghast at this turn of events. It must be Christmas, you two will be playing football across the trenches next.
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Message 219340 - Posted: 21 Dec 2005, 17:54:09 UTC - in response to Message 219333.  

I'm just standing back aghast at this turn of events. It must be Christmas, you two will be playing football across the trenches next.


More likely, they'll be playing soccer. (This is where the smilie would go if I believed in those things.)
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Message 219348 - Posted: 21 Dec 2005, 18:17:36 UTC
Last modified: 21 Dec 2005, 18:23:26 UTC

Congratulations, Elton and David!

Sir Elton John and David Furnish's civil partnership ceremony has taken place at the Guildhall in Windsor.


"I'm trying to maintain a shred of dignity in this world." - Me

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Message 219463 - Posted: 22 Dec 2005, 1:36:03 UTC

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Message 219469 - Posted: 22 Dec 2005, 1:40:26 UTC
Last modified: 22 Dec 2005, 1:43:05 UTC

NSA spied on some fully domestic calls

NEW YORK TIMES NEWS SERVICE

December 21, 2005

WASHINGTON – A surveillance program approved by President Bush to conduct eavesdropping without court warrants has captured what are purely domestic communications in some cases, despite a requirement by the White House that one end of the intercepted conversations take place on foreign soil, officials say.

The officials say the National Security Agency's interception of a small number of communications between people within the United States was apparently accidental, and was caused by technical glitches at the National Security Agency in determining whether a communication was in fact "international."

Telecommunications experts say the issue points up troubling logistical questions about the program. At a time when communications networks are increasingly globalized, it is sometimes difficult even for the NSA to determine whether someone is inside or outside the United States when making a cell phone call or sending an e-mail message. As a result, people who the NSA may think are outside the United States can actually be on U.S. oil.

Eavesdropping on communications between two people who are both inside the United States is prohibited under Bush's order allowing some domestic surveillance.

But in at least one instance, someone using an international cell phone was mistakenly thought to be outside the United States when in fact both people in the conversation were in the country. Officials, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because the program remains classified, would not discuss the number of accidental intercepts, but the total is thought to represent a very small fraction of the total number of wiretaps that Bush has authorized without getting warrants. In all, officials say the program has been used to eavesdrop on as many as 500 people at any one time.

Bush and his senior aides have stressed since the disclosure of the program's existence last week that the president's executive order applied only to cases where one party on a call or e-mail message was outside the United States.

National security and telecommunications experts said that even if the NSA seeks to adhere closely to the rules that Bush has set, the logistics of the program may make it difficult to ensure that the rules are being followed.

In another development, a federal judge has resigned from the court that oversees government surveillance in intelligence cases in protest of Bush's secret authorization of domestic spying, according to two sources.

U.S. District Judge James Robertson, one of 11 members of the secret Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, sent a letter to Chief Justice John Roberts late Monday notifying him of his resignation without providing an explanation.

Two associates familiar with his decision said yesterday that Robertson privately expressed deep concern that the warrantless surveillance program was legally questionable and may have tainted the FISA court's work.

Robertson, who was appointed to the federal bench in Washington by President Clinton in 1994 and was later selected by then-Chief Justice William Rehnquist to serve on the FISA court, declined to comment when reached at his office late yesterday.
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Message 219541 - Posted: 22 Dec 2005, 3:11:12 UTC

'As a result, people who the NSA may think are outside the United States can actually be on U.S. oil.'

There's that magic word again... OIL
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Message 219550 - Posted: 22 Dec 2005, 3:24:37 UTC

Stretching a fence along the the border between Mexico and the US might have some advantages to keeping a few people out who are too lazy to burrow under it but it would do nothing for US prestige in the world-
And that's what the US is at a loss for nowadays.
The southern border needs a WALL- one that puts China's raggedy old relic to shame:
Deep down in the dirt and way up in the air and really really thick- with lots of razor wire, broken glass, gun towers and claymores facing south toward the menace.
From National City California to Brownsville Texas with a doublewide road on top for fast response from the Border Patrol- the newest branch of the military.
Of course, I cant imagine who'd spread tar on rooftops or clean up contruction sites or groom the golf courses in Phoenix for 6 bucks an hour- But there'd be that Great Wall-
Something America could really be proud of...cc
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Message boards : Politics : Political Thread [12] - CLOSED


 
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