Somebody had to say it
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Number crunching :
Somebody had to say it
Message board moderation
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 MattDavis  Send message Joined: 11 Nov 99 Posts: 919 Credit: 934,161 RAC: 0 
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Considering that people already think I'm an idiot because they misinterpreted my other thread, I might as well as say something idiotic intentionally since I'm being called one anyway :) Besides, I kind of believe this: I notice in several other threads that someone will ask a question (where are my credits? etc.) and the very nice and helpful people will say things like "it's a backlog, just be patient." However, then some mean guys come around and start arguing with the nice guys about how Seti is hopelessly broken, and how being optimistic is worthless. So where, does that lead us? If the mean guys say that the guys with hope (the nice guys) are delusional, that means the mean guys don't believe what the nice guys believe - specifically, that Seti will right itself and work smoothly soon. The only logical deduction to that scenario is that the mean guys believe that Seti will always be broken. So, why don't you people who are so pessimistic just leave? Why stick around a project that you consider hopelessly broken? I mean, you MUST think it will always be broken since you constantly attack the guys who believe things will be fixed in time. More work units for us. ----- 
ID: 150985 ·  |
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Alinator Send message Joined: 19 Apr 05 Posts: 4178 Credit: 4,647,982 RAC: 0
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snip Because there's no sport in P & M' ing on a project that's not having some problems! Alinator ID: 150987 · |
kinhull  Send message Joined: 3 Oct 03 Posts: 1029 Credit: 636,475 RAC: 0 
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For what it's worth, I consider you a nice guy (well at least until you start being mean). But I agree, there is too much negativity on these boards at times. <font face="Comic Sans MS">:)</font> Join TeamACC Sometimes I think we are alone in the universe, and sometimes I think we are not. In either case the idea is quite staggering. ID: 150989 · |
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Tigher Send message Joined: 18 Mar 04 Posts: 1547 Credit: 760,577 RAC: 0
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But some times the mean guys are not really mean...they are just frustrated because they want it to be successful....and sometimes it struggles. "I believe what seems to reason impossible - in other words, I believe what I do not believe - and therefore I must hate those who boast an absurdity opposed to mine. Such is the logic - such rather, is the madness - of the superstitious." Voltaire Regards  ID: 151007 · |
Pascal, K G  Send message Joined: 3 Apr 99 Posts: 2343 Credit: 150,491 RAC: 0
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Misery loves company!!! Semper Eadem So long Paul, it has been a hell of a ride. Park your ego's, fire up the computers, Science YES, Credits No. ID: 151017 · |
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1mp0£173 Send message Joined: 3 Apr 99 Posts: 8423 Credit: 356,897 RAC: 0
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If the mean guys say that the guys with hope (the nice guys) are delusional, that means the mean guys don't believe what the nice guys believe - specifically, that Seti will right itself and work smoothly soon. But, this isn't exactly "news"..... :-) Serously: I don't know how many times I've read about the impending implosion of SETI or even the total functional failure of "BIONIC" and yet we're still here. According to BOINCstats.com, yesterday we picked up 570 new users, and 5.9 million credits were granted. ID: 151022 · |
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N/A Send message Joined: 18 May 01 Posts: 3718 Credit: 93,649 RAC: 0 |
According to BOINCstats.com, yesterday we picked up 570 new users, and 5.9 million credits were granted. [font='courier,courier new'] How recent was that stat, and has anyone here gotten their share of the ¤5.9M?[/font] ID: 151076 · |
Fuzzy Hollynoodles  Send message Joined: 3 Apr 99 Posts: 9659 Credit: 251,998 RAC: 0 |
According to BOINCstats.com, yesterday we picked up 570 new users, and 5.9 million credits were granted. No! And "No new work" before these pending credits are granted! "I'm trying to maintain a shred of dignity in this world." - Me 
ID: 151081 · |
Dorsai  Send message Joined: 7 Sep 04 Posts: 474 Credit: 4,504,838 RAC: 0
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I have not had much today (28cr), but yesterday I got 461cr. The day before 655...On the 9th, I got 2.5 days worth, in one hit, 1,639. So they are coming in. Slower than I submit, and late, but arrinving none the less.  Foamy is "Lord and Master". (Oh, + some Classic WUs too.) ID: 151093 · |
tekwyzrd  Send message Joined: 21 Nov 01 Posts: 767 Credit: 30,009 RAC: 0
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I got three validated today (73.78 credits). That makes seven results validated in eleven days. Not complaining (for those about to label me a whiner). Simply stating a fact in relation to the slow rate of validation. Nothing travels faster than the speed of light with the possible exception of bad news, which obeys its own special laws. Douglas Adams (1952 - 2001) ID: 151096 · |
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Paul D. Buck Send message Joined: 19 Jul 00 Posts: 3898 Credit: 1,158,042 RAC: 0
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On negativity, Tom Lerher had this to say as part of the introduction to a song ... "... and while there are people in the world that do not love there fellow human being and I HATE people like that ..." Ian, You stated: But some times the mean guys are not really mean...they are just frustrated because they want it to be successful....and sometimes it struggles. Now, I have to disagree with you ... :) Actually, what most people see as serious flaws, or, what you noted as "struggles" is what what "we" systems engineers describe as: "robustness in the presence of errors". Like any human being, I am addicted to happy endings and fast results ... but, like the Internet, BOINC chugs along and things get done for most people most of the time ... and even when it does not work for one person, it more than likely is working just fine for another ... We also call it fault tolerance ... Sorry to pick on you ... :) ID: 151126 · |
The Gas Giant  Send message Joined: 22 Nov 01 Posts: 1904 Credit: 2,646,654 RAC: 0 
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According to BOINCstats.com, yesterday we picked up 570 new users, and 5.9 million credits were granted. Across my hosts I have 87 wu's pending (one host has 64 of those). From BOINCStats I have received 1745 credit in the past few days (but less in the last 2 days the the 2 before that). I AM getting concerned that the assimilator and file deleter will catch up to my pending credits before they are validated and notice that everyone has returned, over, success, done, doesn't look at the pending/granted status and just assimilate (since the science is complete) and then delete (since they are over, success, done). I do not ever remember testing this side of BOINC in the almost 2 years since BOINC went into open beta and then public. Live long and crunch. Paul (S@H1 8888)    And proud of it!
ID: 151181 · |
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1mp0£173 Send message Joined: 3 Apr 99 Posts: 8423 Credit: 356,897 RAC: 0
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According to BOINCstats.com, yesterday we picked up 570 new users, and 5.9 million credits were granted. I quoted my source. According to BOINCstats, they were able to pick up the stats file from SETI yesterday. I think they're current. If we estimate each work unit at around 30 credits, and we have 750,000 pending work units, there are 22 million credits in the queue -- plus or minus a few million, I'm sure. ... and I've received some credits since mid-week (I don't watch closely). Before I'm accused of being a cheerleader, I don't think that's wonderful, it's a problem. I think it's going to be a hassle for Matt and the other ops. folks until it's fixed. I'm just saying that things are moving, even if they seem to be incredibly slow. If they can find 5% or 10% more performance (or if demand dips just a little as clients settle down after the outages) we're there. ... and as Paul points out, the system is intended to be robust in the presence of errors. It could be a little better, but it's pretty good. ID: 151183 · |
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1mp0£173 Send message Joined: 3 Apr 99 Posts: 8423 Credit: 356,897 RAC: 0
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Across my hosts I have 87 wu's pending (one host has 64 of those). From BOINCStats I have received 1745 credit in the past few days (but less in the last 2 days the the 2 before that). I AM getting concerned that the assimilator and file deleter will catch up to my pending credits before they are validated and notice that everyone has returned, over, success, done, doesn't look at the pending/granted status and just assimilate (since the science is complete) and then delete (since they are over, success, done). My understanding is that as long as your work is reported to the scheduler, your result is in the database for the work unit you (and others) have crunched. The validator reads the database, sees a record that has results, and tries to read the files. It's reading the three (or four) result files that is the bottleneck at this time. If that is the design (and it makes alot more sense than trying to scan directories and put work together), then you aren't at risk of losing work if it shows "pending" under granted credit (and some claimed credit) in "your account" on this site. ID: 151187 · |
Qui-Gon  Send message Joined: 15 May 99 Posts: 2940 Credit: 19,199,902 RAC: 11
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What I've seen on these boards is: some disgruntled participant comes along and says "Where are my stupid credits?" Then some mean guys say, "Quit yer whining and be patient because the devs have everything under control." (they obviously don't). Then the mean guys (often called "cheerleaders") and their friends all berate and minus the participant who really only wanted an answer to a question. Next, the participant will: 1) threaten to leave, followed by the mean guys telling him/her to go; 2) give an examples of how the project is plagued with problems, but the mean guys call him/her a "troll" and deny the problems are at Berkeley's end; or 3) suggest some change should be considered by the devs (which is one of the main reasons for these boards--constructive feedback), to which the mean guys will say something like, "Go ahead and volunteer your time and effort to do what you suggest (if you think you're so smart)", knowing full well that is not possible for the participant to do this. (This last response is the one bothers me the most for it's lack of consideration to the participant.) Maybe I left out some of the responses? Anyway, I guess it all depends on your perspective. ID: 151188 · |
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The Gas Giant Send message Joined: 22 Nov 01 Posts: 1904 Credit: 2,646,654 RAC: 0
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Across my hosts I have 87 wu's pending (one host has 64 of those). From BOINCStats I have received 1745 credit in the past few days (but less in the last 2 days the the 2 before that). I AM getting concerned that the assimilator and file deleter will catch up to my pending credits before they are validated and notice that everyone has returned, over, success, done, doesn't look at the pending/granted status and just assimilate (since the science is complete) and then delete (since they are over, success, done). True...but then I've never seen it tested (BOINCing since Nov 19, 2003). ID: 151197 · |
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N/A Send message Joined: 18 May 01 Posts: 3718 Credit: 93,649 RAC: 0 |
[font='courier,courier new']I know you sourced the quote, but it does suggest that the Berkeley isn't so badly clogged up. That's a Good Thing, IMO.[/font] ID: 151199 · |
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1mp0£173 Send message Joined: 3 Apr 99 Posts: 8423 Credit: 356,897 RAC: 0
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What I've seen on these boards is: some disgruntled participant comes along and says "Where are my stupid credits?" Then some mean guys say, "Quit yer whining and be patient because the devs have everything under control." (they obviously don't). Then the mean guys (often called "cheerleaders") and their friends all berate and minus the participant who really only wanted an answer to a question. At the beginning of the thread Matt Davis defined "mean guys" as the ones who are always saying "SETI is broken! BOINC is broken!" even when uploads and downloads are working perfectly, the validators are fairly current, but perhaps one of the splitters has been turned off because there is plenty of work available. Okay, that might be an exaggeration, but you get the idea. I think it's safe to say that the "cheerleaders" are the ones who say "the project is working perfectly" when in fact the cogent line is down, the circuit breakers are blowing at SSL left and right, and everyone is out of work. I don't believe either is true. I've been accused of being a cheerleader whenever I try to say "look, BOINC is designed to tolerate some downtime" and of course whenever I point out that things progress even when the "mean guys" are predicting the end of life on this planet as we know it. One of the interesting things you can see from BOINCstats, across all projects, roughly two out of every three credis issued are SETI credits. SETI has 175,000 users, while the next nearest has 54,000. SETI has 378,000 hosts, and everyone else is under 100,000. Most every other project has new hardware. Paul pointed out that BOINC is supposed to be resilient: it is supposed to work reasonably well even if individual components fail. It is also supposed to run on a shoestring. ... and the only way to test that is to try it. For the same reason, I think we can only judge success or failure over the long term. Personally, I think the directory fan-out should go two, or three, or four layers as others have suggested. Alternately, stop uploads when the directories get big. I also think trying to fix the directory fan-out problem right now is just throwing another process into the mix when the processes are already bogged down. Adding manpower may not be a good idea right now. It can take more time to train a volunteer to do the work than it does to do the work. As an aside, BOINCstats has updated since my earlier post: yesterday was 5.9 million credits, today is 6.5 million. Credit means validation, validation means the transitioners can do their thing and the file_deleter can then delete files. Is it fast enough, or does Matt Lebofsky and his accomplices have more to do? I dunno. Stay tuned. ID: 151206 · |
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1mp0£173 Send message Joined: 3 Apr 99 Posts: 8423 Credit: 356,897 RAC: 0
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Here is another view of the various queues: click here Credit goes to Angiel. At 5:00 PM PDT, the graph is still rising, but the growth is slowing. This is a total guess, but if the trend continues, and the queue starts to shrink, then, well, that's very encouraging. It might mean that the backlog of work from the last couple of outages is passed, we're back down to a more normal upload rate, and that's just enough to let things recover. ... and it might not. Stay tuned. ID: 151208 · |
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Qui-Gon Send message Joined: 15 May 99 Posts: 2940 Credit: 19,199,902 RAC: 11
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Is it fast enough, or does Matt Lebofsky and his accomplices have more to do? Of course Matt and the others have more to do, as he said in Technical News. My point is that the "Cheerleaders" get angry and sometimes abusive toward people with negative comments; but their own reaction is just as negative, abusive and unfeeling as those from the people they dislike. ID: 151211 · |
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