WIN: SETIQueue fuctionality - how to?


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Morten Ross
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Message 9340 - Posted: 18 Jul 2004, 11:43:45 UTC
Last modified: 18 Jul 2004, 11:45:03 UTC

Hi,

I have used SETIQueue for years, and it is one of the few, perhaps the only one that professionaly deals with a centralised distribution within a LAN.
The BOINC client excellently deals with multiple CPUs and HT on Windows plattform. Excellent progress there.

However, currently I can only see that BOINC has no way to use a local BOINC as a gateway for local BOINC clients to seti in order to prohibit all connecting to internet at random, instead connecting locally to the one host dealing with up-/downloading of WUs.
Furthermore I cannot see all my CPUs and their current state in my LAN.

Before i migrate this must be in place.

This forum is like coming back to the 80s when it comes to user friendliness and finding data - where can I SEARCH the forums??? SEARCH field please!!!

Thanks for any constructive updates.

Morten Ross

Profile Thierry Van Driessche
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Message 9341 - Posted: 18 Jul 2004, 11:50:29 UTC - in response to Message 9340.
Last modified: 20 Jul 2004, 11:57:22 UTC

> This forum is like coming back to the 80s when it comes to user friendliness
> and finding data - where can I SEARCH the forums??? SEARCH field please!!!

A keyword search function is available at the top of the page "Questions and problems".

Greetings from Belgium.

Morten Ross
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Message 9345 - Posted: 18 Jul 2004, 12:07:57 UTC - in response to Message 9341.

> > This forum is like coming back to the 80s when it comes to user
> friendliness
> > and finding data - where can I SEARCH the forums??? SEARCH field
> please!!!
>
> A keyword
> search
function is available at the top of the page "Questions and
> problems".
>
> Greetings from Belgium.
>
>

Thierry,

I do not want to search throught the "Questions and Problems" database. I want to search through the forums in which I posted this message - namely "Number crunching". This is NOT possible!!

That said - the search function you refer to does not work for "Search messages". Only for "Search titles" - all search keys will result in a blank page :-((( (!!)

Morten

Profile KWSN - MajorKong
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Message 9470 - Posted: 18 Jul 2004, 20:35:18 UTC - in response to Message 9340.

> Hi,
>
> I have used SETIQueue for years, and it is one of the few, perhaps the only
> one that professionaly deals with a centralised distribution within a LAN.
> The BOINC client excellently deals with multiple CPUs and HT on Windows
> plattform. Excellent progress there.
>
> However, currently I can only see that BOINC has no way to use a local BOINC
> as a gateway for local BOINC clients to seti in order to prohibit all
> connecting to internet at random, instead connecting locally to the one host
> dealing with up-/downloading of WUs.
> Furthermore I cannot see all my CPUs and their current state in my LAN.
>
> Before i migrate this must be in place.
>
>
>
> Morten Ross
>

Morten Ross,

Sadly, the design of the client-server protocol between the BOINC clients and the BOINC project servers makes it very difficult, if not impossible, to implement a 'setiqueue' style feature (in regards to connection concentration). BOINC is designed so that *each* client must *individually* communicate with the project servers. There are two reasons for wanting to get around this restriction: a 'home' LAN connected via some form of internet connection shareing over a dial-up link, and LAN subnets at work that do not allow (unrestricted) internet use.

To get around the second, you can set BOINC up to use a proxy. Inelegant, but possible. A solution to the first is not quite implemented yet, but is being worked on. Features are being added to the next version of boinc (4.x) to complete the functionality of the 'client remote control' API. Soon, it should be possible to query status and issue commands to all BOINC clients on your LAN. This can be used to keep the BOINC clients from trying to use the network until one signs onto the internet, then one can command them to 'do their business'. At first, this will require a lot of baby-sitting, and is little better than just going from console to console and doing it locally. However, the API to the remote control is known, and it should not require much programming effort for someone to come up with a program that will do it automatically (and thus can be *scheduled*). Neither one of these solutions is ideal, but for the near-term future, they will have to be sufficient.

True 'setiqueue'-style functionality (in a 3rd party addon - not the BOINC client) is quite some time off. The main problem is that each work-unit is issued *specifically* to a particular computer. Being processed by any other host than the one it was issued to will result in NO CREDIT. This is an anti-cheating feature. If it upsets you, get mad at the retards that cheated this way in S@H-Classic (makeing this feature necessary in BOINC). For a setiqueue style addon to work the way you wish, it would have to *perfectly* mimic the hosts connected thru it to the project servers, *and* perfectly mimic the project servers to the hosts. BOTH ways. And, since the client-server protocol is currently subject to revision, it is a moving target. Will there be an addon such as this sometime in the future? Most likely yes; it is a really useful thing. Will it be any time soon? I seriously doubt it.

I *hope* that this seeming lack of functionality does not preclude your participation in BOINC/S@H, but remember: SetiQueue was an addon to S@H-Classic. That project did not start with SetiQueue in place; it took quite a bit of time for the author of SetiQueue to 'get it right' (not to mention that he had to redesign things once or twice due to Berkeley changeing things up on him). Just as we all did back in May 1999 for S@H-Classic, so now we have to be patient and wait on some decent add-ons for BOINC/S@H to enable 'extra' functionality that the project Devs 'left out'. My guess (though I have been wrong a few times) on the availability of something 'setiqueue-ish' for BOINC/S@H: 3 months to a year. Please be patient, and don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Give BOINC/S@H a chance.
------------
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http://www.kwsnforum.com

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Message 9515 - Posted: 18 Jul 2004, 23:04:45 UTC - in response to Message 9345.

> I do not want to search throught the "Questions and Problems" database. I want
> to search through the forums in which I posted this message - namely "Number
> crunching". This is NOT possible!!

The search option you were pointed to works on all the forums, be it the Q&P or these forums. The same option is now available at the top of the index of these message boards

> That said - the search function you refer to does not work for "Search
> messages". Only for "Search titles" - all search keys will result in a blank
> page :-((( (!!)

They work fine for me. Looking for keyword search your last post pops up as first in the list.
----------------------
Jord™

Morten Ross
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Message 9660 - Posted: 19 Jul 2004, 9:08:11 UTC - in response to Message 9470.

> > Hi,
> >
> > I have used SETIQueue for years, and it is one of the few, perhaps the
> only
> > one that professionaly deals with a centralised distribution within a
> LAN.
> > The BOINC client excellently deals with multiple CPUs and HT on Windows
> > plattform. Excellent progress there.
> >
> > However, currently I can only see that BOINC has no way to use a local
> BOINC
> > as a gateway for local BOINC clients to seti in order to prohibit all
> > connecting to internet at random, instead connecting locally to the one
> host
> > dealing with up-/downloading of WUs.
> > Furthermore I cannot see all my CPUs and their current state in my LAN.
> >
> > Before i migrate this must be in place.
> >
> >
> >
> > Morten Ross
> >
>
> Morten Ross,
>
> Sadly, the design of the client-server protocol between the BOINC clients and
> the BOINC project servers makes it very difficult, if not impossible, to
> implement a 'setiqueue' style feature (in regards to connection
> concentration). BOINC is designed so that *each* client must *individually*
> communicate with the project servers. There are two reasons for wanting to
> get around this restriction: a 'home' LAN connected via some form of internet
> connection shareing over a dial-up link, and LAN subnets at work that do not
> allow (unrestricted) internet use.
>
> To get around the second, you can set BOINC up to use a proxy. Inelegant, but
> possible. A solution to the first is not quite implemented yet, but is being
> worked on. Features are being added to the next version of boinc (4.x) to
> complete the functionality of the 'client remote control' API. Soon, it
> should be possible to query status and issue commands to all BOINC clients on
> your LAN. This can be used to keep the BOINC clients from trying to use the
> network until one signs onto the internet, then one can command them to 'do
> their business'. At first, this will require a lot of baby-sitting, and is
> little better than just going from console to console and doing it locally.
> However, the API to the remote control is known, and it should not require
> much programming effort for someone to come up with a program that will do it
> automatically (and thus can be *scheduled*). Neither one of these solutions
> is ideal, but for the near-term future, they will have to be sufficient.
>
> True 'setiqueue'-style functionality (in a 3rd party addon - not the BOINC
> client) is quite some time off. The main problem is that each work-unit is
> issued *specifically* to a particular computer. Being processed by any other
> host than the one it was issued to will result in NO CREDIT. This is an
> anti-cheating feature. If it upsets you, get mad at the retards that cheated
> this way in S@H-Classic (makeing this feature necessary in BOINC). For a
> setiqueue style addon to work the way you wish, it would have to *perfectly*
> mimic the hosts connected thru it to the project servers, *and* perfectly
> mimic the project servers to the hosts. BOTH ways. And, since the
> client-server protocol is currently subject to revision, it is a moving
> target. Will there be an addon such as this sometime in the future? Most
> likely yes; it is a really useful thing. Will it be any time soon? I
> seriously doubt it.
>
> I *hope* that this seeming lack of functionality does not preclude your
> participation in BOINC/S@H, but remember: SetiQueue was an addon to
> S@H-Classic. That project did not start with SetiQueue in place; it took
> quite a bit of time for the author of SetiQueue to 'get it right' (not to
> mention that he had to redesign things once or twice due to Berkeley changeing
> things up on him). Just as we all did back in May 1999 for S@H-Classic, so
> now we have to be patient and wait on some decent add-ons for BOINC/S@H to
> enable 'extra' functionality that the project Devs 'left out'. My guess
> (though I have been wrong a few times) on the availability of something
> 'setiqueue-ish' for BOINC/S@H: 3 months to a year. Please be patient, and
> don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Give BOINC/S@H a chance.
> ------------
> KWSN-MajorKong
> KWSN Forum Admin (retired)
> http://www.kwsnforum.com
>
>
>

Thank you, MajorKong, for your informative reply :-)

I understand the need to make it cheatsafe, but any boinc client could place an order to the boinc gateway which in turn forwards these orders to Seti - no mimic necessary.. The MAC-address should be used as as a unique ID. Thus ensuring that ONLY the computer that placed the order is receiving it. This is really still very simple. I have not seen any reason in the new data you have provided that should be reason enough for this dismal client-server funtionality. It's like NOTHING has been learned from the problems and challenges being shared by the millions of chrunchers the last years.

I must say that current version of Boinc resembles a beta, and I will treat it as such. I have tested it for 24 hrs, and have the boinc running fine as a service, and using all 4 CPUs, but it is still unclear if/when the client will send data to the Seti server if the GUI is not up. Furthermore, the boinc_cli running as a service does NOT provide ANY log to verify what is stopping it from uploading results.. The workload overhead put on me just to administer this is getting too high. The payback is no longer very interesting, as I feel I am not taken seriously.

I will continue to crunch Seti1 and hopefully before Seti1 is terminated, Boinc will have reached a GA/Final release state.

Morten Ross

Morten Ross
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Message 9663 - Posted: 19 Jul 2004, 9:17:47 UTC - in response to Message 9515.

> > I do not want to search throught the "Questions and Problems" database. I
> want
> > to search through the forums in which I posted this message - namely
> "Number
> > crunching". This is NOT possible!!
>
> The search option you were pointed to works on all the forums, be it the
> Q&P or these forums. The same option is now available at the top of <a> href="http://setiweb.ssl.berkeley.edu/forum_index.php">the index of these
> message boards[/url]
>
> > That said - the search function you refer to does not work for "Search
> > messages". Only for "Search titles" - all search keys will result in a
> blank
> > page :-((( (!!)
>
> They work fine for me. Looking for keyword search your last post pops up as
> first in the list.
> ----------------------
> Jord™
>
>
>

I have tried many times, and for some time searching using "boinc" or "seti" returned a BLANK page. At a later time this worked fine. Then not. It appears that when the server is too busy it simply exits with a blank page. Yet again a very dismal function. I also see that I am not alone in this view as many has shared their frustration in various sections here, over a very badly designed forum.

Morten Ross

Profile Paul D. Buck
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Message 9768 - Posted: 19 Jul 2004, 13:54:31 UTC - in response to Message 9663.

Morten,

> I have tried many times, and for some time searching using "boinc" or "seti"
> returned a BLANK page. At a later time this worked fine. Then not. It appears
> that when the server is too busy it simply exits with a blank page. Yet again
> a very dismal function. I also see that I am not alone in this view as many
> has shared their frustration in various sections here, over a very badly
> designed forum.

There is one limit to the search function and that is that the search term has to be 7 characters or longer for the search to return a "hit". The second limitation is that you cannot limit the search to only one forum on all of the boards. This is likely to be a refinement of the basic functionality of the system. At the moment, we are in early days and refinements like these has to take a back seat to some of the other needs of the M2 phase.

For my part, I want the BOINC GUI for the Macintosh computer more than a more selective search. Hang in there... it is still early days. It just "feels" like forever.

Profile KWSN - MajorKong
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Message 9824 - Posted: 19 Jul 2004, 15:39:52 UTC - in response to Message 9660.
Last modified: 19 Jul 2004, 15:43:23 UTC

> Thank you, MajorKong, for your informative reply :-)
>
> I understand the need to make it cheatsafe, but any boinc client could place
> an order to the boinc gateway which in turn forwards these orders to Seti - no
> mimic necessary.. The MAC-address should be used as as a unique ID. Thus
> ensuring that ONLY the computer that placed the order is receiving it. This is
> really still very simple. I have not seen any reason in the new data you have
> provided that should be reason enough for this dismal client-server
> funtionality. It's like NOTHING has been learned from the problems and
> challenges being shared by the millions of chrunchers the last years.

If one does not need the 'offline cacheing' functionality provided by setiqueue, then surely a standard proxy would work in its place for purposes of connection concentration.


>
> I must say that current version of Boinc resembles a beta, and I will treat it
> as such. I have tested it for 24 hrs, and have the boinc running fine as a
> service, and using all 4 CPUs, but it is still unclear if/when the client will
> send data to the Seti server if the GUI is not up. Furthermore, the boinc_cli
> running as a service does NOT provide ANY log to verify what is stopping it
> from uploading results.. The workload overhead put on me just to administer
> this is getting too high. The payback is no longer very interesting, as I feel
> I am not taken seriously.
>
> I will continue to crunch Seti1 and hopefully before Seti1 is terminated,
> Boinc will have reached a GA/Final release state.
>
> Morten Ross


You are correct in that it resembles a beta. The features currently implemented work (for the most part, only a few bugs have hit since release and those are mostly all on the server side), but the planned feature set is not yet complete. The situtation you describe about monitoring a 'service' client on what I presume to be windoze is being worked on. The BOINC Devs are working on seperating the gui from the rest of BOINC, enableing it to be run independantly, and actually GIVING a gui to non-windoze platforms (Linux, Mac, etc.). They have made quite a bit of progress on the 'seperate GUI', and hopefully it will appear in either the initial 4.x release of BOINC, or the next release after that. My guess: about a month or so.

You have raised some good questions. I hope that, after some of the rough edges are smoothed, you find BOINC as enjoyable and interesting as I do.
------------
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http://www.kwsnforum.com

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