While hanging around on irc, the craziest thoughts entered my head, i now choose to pose them to you. This might be of large importance to the devs and anyone who can help with the direction of boinc.

Firstly we must identify problems boinc as a client (and server) has. These include but are not limited to:

1 : When the main server for a project is offline, no work can be recived or returned by clients, this means sometimes valuable processing time is lost.
2 : The costs on bandwidth may fall constantly, but there is hundreds of thousands of us connecting to the project servers, at various times (especially after 1: happens). This causes unnessary strain on the servers.

We also know that many people have access to resources which they will happily share (this is why they run boinc/seti).

So why not combine the two?

I propose a new type of boinc client, which acts in two parts. This is where it gets different from the normal client.

Firstly there would be the normal client, this would react as normal and to any normal user they would see no change. Some options would be added, such as to choose a "parent" server (more on this later) or to ignore a "parent" server.

This next part would be totally optional for any boinc'er to run. Also problems like firewalls may stop you running a "parent" server.

The interesting part of this is the part of the client, which turns your pc into a boinc wu server. The idea is that instead of having hundreds of clients connect to the projects main servers, you become a server hosting only wu's which can be downloaded by clients. You become a "parent" server.
This would allow the projects main servers to go offline, while still keeping many clients supplied with work.

Also, like bit torrent, the servers could run some kind of database between them, which keeps each other updated with which servers have which projects wu's, updates them to new projects, updates them to new servers, lets them know if any projects have gone down.


As each wu is now validated sometimes up to 4 times, this means its nearly always downloaded more than this anyway. Using this Server -> "Parent" Server -> Client idea, the b/w that any project uses could be reduced by 1/4.
I know that with some projects (such as cpdn) the space required would be large) or that with some such as Einstine that the time limits might interupt but im sure that something, such as the boinc scheduler would also help in this case, making sure that wu's near their expiry are given out.




Im preparing for flames and all pain with this idea, but its just something that popped up. If everyone says no and im bored when i hit the 3rd year of university, i shall try it my self then, but if anyone wants to actually try and get this idea off the ground, i would love to help?(not that i can code ;))


Cheers
Tim
djsmiley2k@gmail.com

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an interesting idea... but it might be complicated to make it happen as all the users would need to know where to go to find a wu... thats where the difficulty begins....

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Do you Good Search for Seti@Home? http://www.goodsearch.com/?charityid=888957
Or Good Shop? http://www.goodshop.com/?charityid=888957

Yeah I like the idea!

Kinda like an idea I had. You know how bonic connects to "localhost" couldn't you have a main pc set to download like 10 days of work then other computers connect to that pc and process them and then let the main computer send and receive them all.. (like if you had a hub/switch setup that the others pc's didn't connect to the internet. )

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I think it's a great idea Tim.

Maybe as a first step, clients could receive 2 or 3 days worth of WUs based on their average daily returns.

In this way, if the server is unavailable, I can keep working then return all completed results when the server comes back.

/*tom*/

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Audience Response Systems | NY Rangers Booster Club | Audience Response Place

Actually, if memory serves me correctly, this was (in one form or another) very similar to one of the initial ideas about boinc. I think it may have gotten lost or put on a back burner. It might resurface later as the main framework of BOINC becomes more mature and stable.

Jim

While hanging around on irc, the craziest thoughts entered my head, i now choose to pose them to you. This might be of large importance to the devs and anyone who can help with the direction of boinc.

{edited for brevity}

Im preparing for flames and all pain with this idea, but its just something that popped up. If everyone says no and im bored when i hit the 3rd year of university, i shall try it my self then, but if anyone wants to actually try and get this idea off the ground, i would love to help?(not that i can code ;))


Cheers
Tim
djsmiley2k@gmail.com

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Works great...when I was actually turing in units (Seti Classic...before BOINC -_-) I used a program called SetiGate. Collected WU's, I crunched them and when the server could recieve them of they went. I got thru alot of hurricanes and lab power outages that way.

BOINC seems to be confused by more than one work unit or project being around right now...this would be a great first fix.

C

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I keep 10 days worth of work in cache.

I have never experienced a machine without work. - For this reason, I can't justify the security risk of allowing my computer to connect to Joe Schmoes computer to download work when the main server is down.

The security impact of a decision like this would be insurmountable.

If you are having problems where your PC runs out of work then the only answer is to increase your cache size.

Unless of course, you were saying that one of your PC's in the workgroup would download work for an entire network of PC's that you own. In this case, it would be difficult to implement with the current credit system, but not impossible.

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I wouldn't want to connect to random computers either, but connecting to the work unit server is ok by me. SetiGate was nice. You told it to store a certain number of workunits and it crunched in order of download...

Just seemed way easier than what I have now...

C

I keep 10 days worth of work in cache.

I have never experienced a machine without work. - For this reason, I can't justify the security risk of allowing my computer to connect to Joe Schmoes computer to download work when the main server is down.

The security impact of a decision like this would be insurmountable.

If you are having problems where your PC runs out of work then the only answer is to increase your cache size.

Unless of course, you were saying that one of your PC's in the workgroup would download work for an entire network of PC's that you own. In this case, it would be difficult to implement with the current credit system, but not impossible.

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I run cpdn as well, its actually my primary project at the moment. I never have worry about running out of wu's.

I think this idea has been considered before on the number-crunching board.

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Need help? Check out the excellent Unofficial BOINC-Wiki!
'We are the BOINC. Prepare to be assimilated.'

Could somebody tell me how can i increase the amount of cache WU ??
Everyboby seems to know how.....but for me is a black viod.....

Thanks in advance for your answer.

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o0o0o0o0o0o0oo0o0o0o0o0o00o00oo0o0o0o0o0o0o0o


o0o0o0o0o0o0oo0o0o0o0o0o00o00oo0o0o0o0o0o0o0o

Could somebody tell me how can i increase the amount of cache WU ??
Everyboby seems to know how.....but for me is a black viod.....

Thanks in advance for your answer.

The Questions/problems area is better for these issues, but... go to General preferences in your account. Then to Network usage, Connect to the network about every. Increase the number from 1 to 10. Now you got more WU's.

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Could somebody tell me how can i increase the amount of cache WU ??
Everyboby seems to know how.....but for me is a black viod.....

Thanks in advance for your answer.

Under general preferences, change your "connect to" setting (IIRC default setting is .1 days). The longer that is, the more work it will keep. WARNING: depending on your Boinc client, you can and will miss deadlines if this is set too high and you run more than 1 project.

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Still looking for something profound or inspirational to place here.

Thank you very much!
I change my preferences easily...
Thanks a lot!

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o0o0o0o0o0o0oo0o0o0o0o0o00o00oo0o0o0o0o0o0o0o


o0o0o0o0o0o0oo0o0o0o0o0o00o00oo0o0o0o0o0o0o0o

I keep 10 days worth of work in cache.

I have never experienced a machine without work. - For this reason, I can't justify the security risk of allowing my computer to connect to Joe Schmoes computer to download work when the main server is down.

The security impact of a decision like this would be insurmountable.

If you are having problems where your PC runs out of work then the only answer is to increase your cache size.

I have my machines set to connect every 0.5 days. I have never ran out of work. Increasing the cache size is not the ONLY answer. It is just one of many answers.

Personally, I don't see how setting up program like SETIGate could be easier than BOINC. To set up SETIGate (or some similar program), one would have to install Classic Seti, and SETIGate. Tell Classic to attach to a proxy server (instead of the main server). Adjust the cache size on SETIGate so as not to hold WU's past the 14 day (or was it 21 day) window imposed by Classic. and hope that everything works as it is supposed to work. A lot of extra handling of WU's.

With BOINC, one only has to attach to a project and tell BOINC how often to attach to the server. BOINC will fill its que with enough WU's to keep it crunching for said amount of time.

Maybe it just seemed easier because you were used to it. Maybe BOINC seems harder because it is new and one has to learn some new things to make it work.

Jim

Why...it took me 3 minutes to set up setigate and the coomand line version of the seti program...it take much longer to make BOINC work. proxy? I set it up and told it look on this computer for work. proxy -localhost:5001 i believe it was. and that came in the instructions.

I also was able to keep a weeks worth of worth by saying...keep x WU's in cache. No worrying about how often I connect.

Now I have a message list full of errors that are as unhelpful as windows general fault error messages. I have to play with time to figure out how many work units is a week. I have to logon to the web and try to remember what the hell my pass code is...what is that, 26-30 characters? yes, remembering my email address under the old system was way too hard. Yes, I am much happier now that my computer turns in 1-3 units a day instead of the 6-8 before. /sarcasm.

How badly screwed up is this? I'll tell you. I had used sei as part of my teaching in astronomy and oceanography. Setigate made it so I could go back and look at any unit processed by the computer. I could leave my computer running and let students go look at those units. See sky maps and results. Follow results and see how we compared to the rest of the community when it came to turning in units...it was a competition for them, and one that GOT THEM INTERESTED!!! Now all of that is gone.

I'm left asking myself why? And the answer as far as I can tell so far is two fold.. 1. A few people wanted to geek out the process and make it seem way more technical than it has to be. 2. A bunch of people whined about results and how unfair it was they were working so hard compared to others...'my work units are more complex than everyone else'. BS! I looked through the list of 5500 units I turned in under the last system...guess what, not one unit varied by more than 15 minutes either way. So we all suffer now for what? Results!? Rankings? What the hell are you people in this for? Aren't we supposed to be in this for the science?

maybe BOINC and its staff will remember that next time there is an update.

I keep 10 days worth of work in cache.

I have never experienced a machine without work. - For this reason, I can't justify the security risk of allowing my computer to connect to Joe Schmoes computer to download work when the main server is down.

The security impact of a decision like this would be insurmountable.

If you are having problems where your PC runs out of work then the only answer is to increase your cache size.

I have my machines set to connect every 0.5 days. I have never ran out of work. Increasing the cache size is not the ONLY answer. It is just one of many answers.

Personally, I don't see how setting up program like SETIGate could be easier than BOINC. To set up SETIGate (or some similar program), one would have to install Classic Seti, and SETIGate. Tell Classic to attach to a proxy server (instead of the main server). Adjust the cache size on SETIGate so as not to hold WU's past the 14 day (or was it 21 day) window imposed by Classic. and hope that everything works as it is supposed to work. A lot of extra handling of WU's.

With BOINC, one only has to attach to a project and tell BOINC how often to attach to the server. BOINC will fill its que with enough WU's to keep it crunching for said amount of time.

Maybe it just seemed easier because you were used to it. Maybe BOINC seems harder because it is new and one has to learn some new things to make it work.

Jim

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I just thought I'd update this again...I just came back from a BOINC induced overheat and crash....when I came back...all my projects are gone.

This software is awful. Fix it before you release it.

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a BOINC induced overheat

An overheat is a badly cooled puter. Boinc uses the puter at 100%, and a usual puter should have no probs with that.

Fix it before you release it.

Possible fixes are:
- Clean the rack
- reduce insane OC
- insert an adequate cooler

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Gruesse vom Saenger

For questions about Boinc look in the BOINC-Wiki

How much longer does it take to make BOINC work? How hard can it be to install the program and copy / paste the URL / Hash from the email to BOINC?

There is no way you could have kept exactly a weeks worth of work. The WU's varied in time. You could keep APPROXIMATELY a weeks worth of work as the same as BOINC. But with BOINC you can't keep X number of WU's, but instead you keep approximately "t" time worth of WU's.

A list full of errors.... Have you checked the BOINC Wiki? Paul has done a wonderful job of addressing these errors. Have you asked about any of the errors? There are lots of people on these boards that love to help solve problems.

Granted, logging into the websites can be annoying. If security is not an issue, just click the box that says "remember me". The next time you log in, you won't have to worry about typing or copy / pasteing the HASH.

If you are worried about the number of WU's per day that your computer is doing then it sounds more like you are worried about the credit than the science.

If you turned in 5500 WU's under classic and none of them varied by more than 15 minutes then either you crunched the same WU 5500 times or you are mistaken.

BOINC is not technical. there were a few people who were cheating in an effort to increase their numbers. That was hurting the science of SETI. BOINC has worked to make cheating much harder. Maybe that is what you are upset about?

There are addon's that will do many of the same things you are wanting to do now. You can still leave your computer running and let your students look at the results.

If you are truely in academia then you should embrace change, embrace the future, embrace enhancements and progress. You should be willing to LEARN. If you want your students to learn then you yourself must be willing to learn.

If there is some information that you want that the current addons don't provide, then why not write an addon to parse the info that you want and display it the way you want? Perhaps you might have to learn something new to do this?

Under SETI Classic your processor would also run at 100%. Although it's been shown that there are still CPU temperature differences between the different projects, your CPU should not have had any problems running under design parameters.

To me, you are coming across as a grumpy old school teacher who has been teaching entirely too long. Someone who is bitter and is just biding his time until retirement.

Jim

Why...it took me 3 minutes to set up setigate and the coomand line version of the seti program...it take much longer to make BOINC work. proxy? I set it up and told it look on this computer for work. proxy -localhost:5001 i believe it was. and that came in the instructions.

I also was able to keep a weeks worth of worth by saying...keep x WU's in cache. No worrying about how often I connect.

Now I have a message list full of errors that are as unhelpful as windows general fault error messages. I have to play with time to figure out how many work units is a week. I have to logon to the web and try to remember what the hell my pass code is...what is that, 26-30 characters? yes, remembering my email address under the old system was way too hard. Yes, I am much happier now that my computer turns in 1-3 units a day instead of the 6-8 before. /sarcasm.

How badly screwed up is this? I'll tell you. I had used sei as part of my teaching in astronomy and oceanography. Setigate made it so I could go back and look at any unit processed by the computer. I could leave my computer running and let students go look at those units. See sky maps and results. Follow results and see how we compared to the rest of the community when it came to turning in units...it was a competition for them, and one that GOT THEM INTERESTED!!! Now all of that is gone.

I'm left asking myself why? And the answer as far as I can tell so far is two fold.. 1. A few people wanted to geek out the process and make it seem way more technical than it has to be. 2. A bunch of people whined about results and how unfair it was they were working so hard compared to others...'my work units are more complex than everyone else'. BS! I looked through the list of 5500 units I turned in under the last system...guess what, not one unit varied by more than 15 minutes either way. So we all suffer now for what? Results!? Rankings? What the hell are you people in this for? Aren't we supposed to be in this for the science?

maybe BOINC and its staff will remember that next time there is an update.

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You guys are ridiculus... complaining about everything....

some of the replys are anything but welcoming..
welcome people in
they will help more

someone don't like Boinc?
ask them why...
someone says they dont like Boinc for x reasons explain why things are that way

your actions are no way to act in a Volenteer Project.

please act better and more people will be happy in the end...

BoB

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Do you Good Search for Seti@Home? http://www.goodsearch.com/?charityid=888957
Or Good Shop? http://www.goodshop.com/?charityid=888957

someone don't like Boinc?
ask them why...

Take a look around, do a search. We ask people why they don't like Boinc.

someone says they dont like Boinc for x reasons explain why things are that way

We do explain what the difference between running Seti through Boinc and the Classic Seti application is. We've even got a whole off-site Wiki that you can find a lot of info in.

But when things don't run correctly, for whatever reason, there's always a backlash that "Boinc stinks!", or "sucks", or "is garbage".
The crediting isn't right, how the program caches units isn't right, connections are lost, work units are lost, etc. etc.

In the end it's always the fault of the people who:
a) released the program.
b) those who try to help voluntarily.
c) the weather.

But it's never the fault of the person who is trying Boinc but cannot adapt to leaving his old Seti@Home application and all its 3rd party software behind.

your actions are no way to act in a Volenteer Project.

Neither are yours. Coming on here and saying that this program sucks without even having tried it, without having tried getting indept information about it, but waving your hand and saying it sucks is not done.

Try to grasp the concept behind Boinc before you dismiss it.

It's been a learning process for all of us, even us who were there at the start of Boinc, in Beta, losing our daily crunched units about every other day, having to reset, uninstall and lose all units again.

I doubt you had this attitude towards changing your Windows version to XP. Or your videocard drivers. Or your browser of choice. So why do you have it against something that crunches on your computer every day, in the background, you don't even need to look at it but for the first hour orso?! Something that is also better?

I'll still be helping you if and when I can. If you don't want my help, that's okay with me. But at least I have tried! Just don't dismiss my help, or that of others here on the concept that you have in your mind...

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