If the EU wants to become a counterbalance to the US why don't they just do it? They don't need President Bush to give his blessing.

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[font='fixedsys,courier']Simple: The proposed EU Constitution is the problem. Essentially, another Continental Congress is needed, and the best thing we (read: US) can do is butt out.[/font]

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They call it the EU for the same reason my 4 year old says it when prompted to eat Liver. euwwww

[font='fixedsys,courier']Simple: The proposed EU Constitution is the problem. Essentially, another Continental Congress is needed, and the best thing we (read: US) can do is butt out.[/font]

I couldn't agree more.

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[font='fixedsys,courier']A decent Constitution should be no longer than enough text to fill up one full sheet of ISO B0 paper with a monospaced 7.5mm font using 10mm line heights.

If it doesn't fit two posters in the plaza, it ain't worth it.

€0.02[/font]

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[font='fixedsys,courier']A decent Constitution should be no longer than enough text to fill up one full sheet of ISO B0 paper with a monospaced 7.5mm font using 10mm line heights.

If it doesn't fit two posters in the plaza, it ain't worth it.

€0.02[/font]

I think the constitution and the treaties need paper made of several acres of woods as it is now! Plus our own constitutions, from each country!

This is something you apparently don't think about, dblEagle, that EU is not a country, but a conglomerate of many separate states with each our own history, government, king/queen or president and each country has the ultimate sovereignty! Our history has also some of each other as old enemies from wars up through the time. Where the balance in Europe before was created through mariages between the different royal families (We had a Danish princess married to a Sweedish crownprince once to secure peace between Denmark and Sweeden!), so friendship between the royal families was the EU in the past!

EU is created from something that started out as a trade union, and later got some political co-operation and harmonization build in, and, dependent on which country you are in, is seen as a either a pest or a treasure, dependent of how much money they can get from EU!

If you ask a person living in Europe no matter which country, you meet on the street, if he or she can explain the treaties and constitutions, you'll most probably get a blank look in their eyes and faces! Many people don't have any clue of what the politicians in Bruxelles are cooking up, even I can't explain exactly what EU is about! So you ask for very much in this thread!

My €0.02 .oO(Nice touch there, NA! :-D )



And, BTW, we couldn't care less about Bush or USA at the moment in this discussion! This hasn't anything to do with you, this is about us and our common history and politics!

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"I'm trying to maintain a shred of dignity in this world." - Me

As long as nationalism keeps raising its head, there will never be an agreement. They all see their own self interest first.

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Sometimes the best thing to do when things get so botched up; just start from scratch all over again.

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Account frozen...

IMHO the problem is two different concept of the EU:

1. A free trade zone, no borders for business, money, and, if necessary people as well.

2. A Europe as a political union of the people living there. Still in there own country or so (like the Scotch in Britain or the Bavarians in Germany), but with a common legislative (Parliament, government...)

For #1 you need a complicated treaty, that fixes a lot of useless stuff, like the curvature of cucumbers and bananas, the ownership rights of danish holiday homes, the decent naming of marmelade/confiture...

For #2 you need what NA discribed.

I'll vote for #2, but would even have said yes to #1, if my own constitution would allow us to have referendae on the federal level.

I think it's a pity, as with the referendum comes a discussion as well, but unfortunately it will also get all the ugly agitators and populists to the screens.

The 2 main causes for the no-fraction to say so were imho this:

- The EU is seen as a tool to spread anti-social, ultra-liberal, pure market fetishism, where the greedy get everything, and the people get robbed.

- There is a widespread fear of jobloss because of wage dumping with immigration from the poorer eastern counties.

The most european governments also used Bruxelles as a scape goat for unpopular decisions ('We would like to do otherwise, but unfortunately we have to do as Bruxelles said', even when they voted Yes themself), wich didn't make the case for Europe any better.

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Gruesse vom Saenger

For questions about Boinc look in the BOINC-Wiki

There is a widespread fear of jobloss because of wage dumping with immigration from the poorer eastern counties.

[font='fixedsys,courier']I think that's the main reason: Fear of worse economic conditions and legal "invasion" by immigrants.

From what I've heard (BBC, Deutche Welle, et al.) people seem to be in favour of the EU, but feel so alienated from its political/governmental aspect that they can only shoot down the Constitution. I can't blame them. Either way, I can't see how a steel-and-coal entity could have any credibility as a governmental one.

Come to think of it, that's exactly like the US![/font]

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As long as nationalism keeps raising its head, there will never be an agreement. They all see their own self interest first.

Yes, it's amazing how nationalistic people become when they live in a country with a history that goes several thousand years back!

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"I'm trying to maintain a shred of dignity in this world." - Me

I hope a European Union can be worked out for everyone’s sake. I can't even imagine how difficult this will be however. History is sometimes hard to erase.

Any thoughts on what a EU can mean to trade between the EU, the USA and the rest of the world?

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[font='fixedsys,courier']Yeah: Mercosur and NAFTA will be dead.[/font]

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As long as nationalism keeps raising its head, there will never be an agreement. They all see their own self interest first.

So true. We need to look at building efficient structures and borderless policies, not all these exceptions which fill the current documents. The UK and Sweden should simply join the Euro, for one. Despite the protests of conservatives in the member states these are no longer nations but contributors to a greater whole. In order for it to live up to its potential, people need to find something relevant to debate, not things like the refund. In the single market, the UK has just as much access to the final products as any other state, no rebate is needed. Just one example of many where these arguments are pointless expressions of nationalism.

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Bookends..



President Bush with European Union President Jean-Claude Juncker, left, and European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso.

transcript

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Bookends..

Hahah! Nice term.

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