Controversial Thread I

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Message 122202 - Posted: 11 Jun 2005, 17:05:38 UTC
Last modified: 11 Jun 2005, 17:05:58 UTC

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CAPT Siran d'Vel'nahr - L L & P _\\//
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"Logic is the cement of our civilization with which we ascend from chaos using reason as our guide." - T'Plana-hath
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Message 122203 - Posted: 11 Jun 2005, 17:07:58 UTC

I've been doing SETI for just over 6 years now. I hope to be doing SETI for at least another 6 years [can't imagine what PCs we'll be using by then]. Anyway, recently, I have been thinking about something quite controversial.
We are looking for signs [artificial radio signals from space] of extraterrestrial intelligent beings. Do they exist? Who knows? I believe that [with a few exceptions] the majority of us here do. Else why participate in such a contoversial endeavor? Me? I do believe....

On to the controversy:

Religion would dictate that WE are the only intelligent beings in the universe. "'GOD' created the Earth in 7 days". Then 'he/she' created us. Hmmmm....

If 'GOD' created the Earth, who created the rest of the universe? Why would our little solar system NOT BE the center of our 'universe'? For that matter, why would the Earth NOT BE the center of our 'universe'? Why would the Earth NOT BE our universe?

I have my beliefs, but this is enough to get the ball rolling [I hope]. Feel free to discuss whatever your beliefs may be on this subject....

CAPT Siran d'Vel'nahr - L L & P _\\//
Winders 11 OS? "What a piece of junk!" - L. Skywalker
"Logic is the cement of our civilization with which we ascend from chaos using reason as our guide." - T'Plana-hath
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Message 122205 - Posted: 11 Jun 2005, 17:09:40 UTC
Last modified: 11 Jun 2005, 17:10:16 UTC

Hmmmm....
CAPT Siran d'Vel'nahr - L L & P _\\//
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"Logic is the cement of our civilization with which we ascend from chaos using reason as our guide." - T'Plana-hath
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Message 122209 - Posted: 11 Jun 2005, 17:14:26 UTC

Very cool. Almost sounds like an invite for WW to jump back in.
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Message 122221 - Posted: 11 Jun 2005, 17:33:24 UTC - in response to Message 122209.  

Very cool. Almost sounds like an invite for WW to jump back in.

Nope, no preaching. That's why the guidelines were put into place first, to help prevent that from happening. This thread is for friendly discussion only. >:-)

CAPT Siran d'Vel'nahr - L L & P _\\//
Winders 11 OS? "What a piece of junk!" - L. Skywalker
"Logic is the cement of our civilization with which we ascend from chaos using reason as our guide." - T'Plana-hath
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Message 122232 - Posted: 11 Jun 2005, 17:59:10 UTC

Perhaps Science and the Christian Bible (biblios[greek]=books) aren't so far seperate from one another. Let's look at the first book Genesis in words written by Isaac Asimov(i'm copy and pasting here from THE OLD AND NEW TESTAMENTS, ASIMOV’S GUIDE TO THE BIBLE, ISAAC ASIMOV, WING BOOKS New York Avenel, New Jersey)[note: the IA at the beginning is a self imposed "Source note"]:

IA The Bible begins at the logical place - the beginning. The very first verse starts:

IA Genesis 1:1. In the beginning ...

IA The phrase "In the beginning" is a translation of the Hebrew word "bereshith." In the case of several of the books of the Bible, the first word is taken as the title of the whole (much as Papal bulls are named for the two Latin words with which they begin.) The Hebrew named for the first book is, there, Bereshith. The Bible was first translated into another language in the course of the third century B.C. and that other language was Greek. This Greek version was, according to tradition, based on the work of seventy learned scholars, and it is therefore known as the Septuagint, from the Latin
word meaning "seventy."
In the Septuagint, the various books of the Bible were, naturally enough, given Greek names. The Hebrew habit of using the first words as the name was not followed, and descriptive names were used instead.
The first book was named "Genesis," which means, literally, "coming into being." It implies a concern with births and beginnings which is appropriate for a book that begins with the creation of heaven and earth.
By ancient tradition, the first five books of the Bible were written by Moses, the folk hero who, according to the account given in the second through fifth books, rescued the Israelites from Egyptian slavery. Modern scholars are convinced that this theory of authorship is not tenable and that the early books of the Bible are not the single work of any man. Rather, they are the
combined and carefully edited version of a number of sources. Despite this, the full name of the first book of the Bible as commonly given in English translation remains "The First Book of Moses, Called Genesis."
The first five books of the Bible give not only the traditional history of the ancestors of the Israelite people, but also describe a legal code as having been given to Moses by God and by Moses to the Israelites generally. Because of Moses' traditional role in what was, in actual fact, a
set of laws that developed slowly over the centuries, the whole is termed the "Mosaic law" or, more simply still, "the Law." The Hebrew word for the first five books is "Torah," which is the Hebrew word for "law."
The Greek word for the first five books is "Pentateuch" ("five books"). In recent times, it has been recognized that the sixth book of the Bible is closely connected with the first five and is derived from similar sources. All six books may be referred to as the "Hexateuch" ("six books").

IA God

IA The Bible centers about God, and God is brought into the tale at once:

IA Genesis 1:1. In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

IA The Hebrew word, translated here as God, is "Elohim" and that is a plural form which would ordinarily (if tradition were defied) be translated "gods". It is possible that in the very earliest traditions on which the Bible is based, the creation was indeed the work of a plurality of gods. The firmly monothiestic Biblical writers would carefully have eliminated such polytheism, but could not perhaps do anything with the firmly ingrained term "Elohim." It was to familiar to change.


Back to my words: Now that we see where the where the title comes from, pay attention to the words in Genesis 1:1 God created the heaven and earth. I make the assumption that "heaven" refers to the UNIVERSE, So "God created the Universe and the earth" could be seen as it's intention.

If we look at the characters in Genesis and look at the ages of them, they live extra ordinarily high number of years Example:

IA Genesis 5:5. And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.
IA Genesis 5:23. And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years

IA The fact that Enoch is described as living 365 years, whereas is father Jared lived 962 years and his son Methuselah lived 969 years


Anyway, we can assume they all ate much better than we do, were given the extralife by a benevolent diety, OR that the measure of time was different than the Gregorian calendar we use today.

So when we read that God created all this in 7 days, I ask who's day? who's measure of a day?

It certainly flies in the face of science to think the universe was created in 7 of our days. Perhaps, the "Big bang" was a creation of God. If so then did GOD also create other worlds (with life)?

tony
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Message 122238 - Posted: 11 Jun 2005, 18:16:23 UTC



You said controversy, right?
me@rescam.org
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Message 122326 - Posted: 11 Jun 2005, 20:38:00 UTC - in response to Message 122232.  
Last modified: 11 Jun 2005, 20:42:16 UTC

Perhaps Science and the Christian Bible (biblios[greek]=books) aren't so far seperate from one another. Let's look at the first book Genesis in words written by Isaac Asimov(i'm copy and pasting here from THE OLD AND NEW TESTAMENTS, ASIMOV’S GUIDE TO THE BIBLE, ISAAC ASIMOV, WING BOOKS New York Avenel, New Jersey)[note: the IA at the beginning is a self imposed "Source note"]:

IA The Bible begins at the logical place - the beginning. The very first verse starts:

IA Genesis 1:1. In the beginning ...
....

I make the assumption that "heaven" refers to the UNIVERSE, So "God created the Universe and the earth" could be seen as it's intention.

I have had this thought for a very, very long time:

    We are told that if we are good little christian boys a girls, that we will go to 'heaven'. Now, if the universe is heaven, it makes more sense to me that we will travel [in spirit form?] through the vast universe looking for other adventures. Going to 'heaven', as religion preaches, makes no sense because the place would be so very overcrowded, more so than our planet is [think of all the millions upon millions who have left already].


....
So when we read that God created all this in 7 days, I ask who's day? who's measure of a day?

The seven days must be extremely long days since according to science, the universe is a few billion years old. Not to mention the fact that it [universe] is still expanding [also according to science].
It certainly flies in the face of science to think the universe was created in 7 of our days. Perhaps, the "Big bang" was a creation of God. If so then did GOD also create other worlds (with life)?

Which also begs the question:
    When the ETs die, do they also go to 'heaven'? When we die will we meet the ETs traveling through 'heaven' looking for new adventures? Maybe that would be the ultimate SETI....



CAPT Siran d'Vel'nahr - L L & P _\\//
Winders 11 OS? "What a piece of junk!" - L. Skywalker
"Logic is the cement of our civilization with which we ascend from chaos using reason as our guide." - T'Plana-hath
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Message 122332 - Posted: 11 Jun 2005, 20:46:12 UTC - in response to Message 122238.  



You said controversy, right?

This post is not of controversy, it is of antiestablishmentarianism....

CAPT Siran d'Vel'nahr - L L & P _\\//
Winders 11 OS? "What a piece of junk!" - L. Skywalker
"Logic is the cement of our civilization with which we ascend from chaos using reason as our guide." - T'Plana-hath
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Message 122342 - Posted: 11 Jun 2005, 21:22:05 UTC - in response to Message 122232.  

mmciastro- that is some good stuff.

Personally, I've always felt that in the "early days" a year was 1 lunar cycle, the ages seem plausable if that is the case: Enoch (@28), Jared (74), and Methuselah (almost 75). This convention could apply elsewhere, the 40 yrs. in the desert (3 years by our calender), and the 7yrs of feast then 7 yrs of famine. Again, it seems more probable if the "year" is a lunar cycle.

The 6 days of creation, on the other hand, I believe had other uses. We may understand the concept of billions of years, but we cannot really visualize something taking that long, and being able to visualize it was even more important then (before it was written, it had a long oral tradition). What it really did (besides establish a begining) is set a 7 day week (1/4 lunar cycle). If you look at that as a precident, you work 6 days and take the 7th as a day of rest. As a rule for society, it's a good one. Working nonstop is not a good thing to do long term, but society requires (or at least used to) industrious people, and no more so than when it is trying to establish itself.

Maybe I'm way off base with all of this (and now that it is shared, I'm sure to hear about it), but that's the best I've come up with for this.


Still looking for something profound or inspirational to place here.
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Message 122348 - Posted: 11 Jun 2005, 21:37:05 UTC

don't credit me, credit Isaac. I enjoyed his 1400 page book so much I typed the entire thing into WordPerfect.

Consider this with your theory:

IA Seth

IA Adam has a third son:

IA Genesis 5:3. And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son ... and called his name Seth.


How many days is a lunar cycle? 21 or 28? If his third son was born when he was 130 how old was he?

tony
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Message 122354 - Posted: 11 Jun 2005, 21:57:05 UTC

1 lunar cycle = 29.53059 days

130 units(years?)X29.53 = 3838.9
3838.9 days / 365.25 days = 10.51 years old? mighty young for a third child
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Message 122355 - Posted: 11 Jun 2005, 22:02:39 UTC

The Bible was written by men in the manner that they could understand at that time. In translation from one language to another, personal beliefs were undoubtly included or excluded. I can visualize King James instructing his scribes on how he wanted his own translations put in his version which many use today.
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Message 122360 - Posted: 11 Jun 2005, 22:11:32 UTC - in response to Message 122348.  

don't credit me, credit Isaac. I enjoyed his 1400 page book so much I typed the entire thing into WordPerfect.

Consider this with your theory:

IA Seth

IA Adam has a third son:

IA Genesis 5:3. And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son ... and called his name Seth.


How many days is a lunar cycle? 21 or 28? If his third son was born when he was 130 how old was he?

tony


28 days in what is considered a lunar cycle. The Jewish Calendar as many other "religions" still based on their Calendars on a Lunar Cycle. Western Medical practice based re-occuring human events on a Lunar Cycle, including the normal gestation period of a human. Gestation is actually 40 weeks or 10 Lunar Months, not 9 Solar months. We all know a human female menstration will end on the 28th day (least it's supposed too).

Humans attitudes and moods are controlled by the moon then the sun. Science will tell you it's because the gravity of the moon is stronger then that of the Sun. Religion will tell you that is poppycock.. Any Paramedic will tell you they dread working the night of a full moon..

I personally will go with Science on this one..




I'd rather speak my mind because it hurts too much to bite my tongue.

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Message 122368 - Posted: 11 Jun 2005, 22:28:56 UTC

here's something Isaac says about it:

There were two general kinds of calendars in use in the ancient Mediterranean world. One is the lunar calendar, which matches the months to the phases of the Moon. It was devised by the Babylonians, who passed it on to the Greeks and the Jews. The other is the solar calendar, which matches the months of the seasons of the year. It was devised be the Egyptians, who passed it on, in Caesar's time, to the Romans, and, by way of Rome, to ourselves.
The lunar calendar does not match the seasons and, in order to keep it from falling out of line, some years must have twelve lunar months and others thirteen, in a rather complex pattern. To people using a solar calendar (as we do) the lunar year is too short when it has twelve months and too long when it has thirteen. A date that is fixed in a lunar calendar slips forward and backward in the solar calendar, although in the long run, it oscillates about a fixed place.
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Message 122371 - Posted: 11 Jun 2005, 22:32:08 UTC - in response to Message 122348.  

The Lunar cycle is 28 days (or @13 a year). So 130= 10 years old (I'm not sure if that is more or less farfetched). Working back 27 cycles, Adam would have been just shy of 8 when the first child was conceived. Now that may seem unlikely, but might just have been possible (I'm not up to doing the research on historical sexual maturation rates or gestation periods, maybe someone else knows this).

Tell you what, I'll credit Issac for the thoughts, and you for quoting a rational and well thought out idea.


Still looking for something profound or inspirational to place here.
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Message 122374 - Posted: 11 Jun 2005, 22:33:06 UTC

he also describes the week and days:
The week arose from the accidental astronomical fact that there are seven visible bodies in the sky that move independently against the background of the stars. These are the Sun, the Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn. The Babylonians found much of mystic importance in the number and motions of these bodies and founded the study of astrology, a pseudo-science that still exists in undiminished importance and influence even in our own supposedly enlightened society.
Each of the seven days of the week is presided over by a planet after which it is named. We still retain relics of that in our own Sunday, Monday (Moon-day), and Saturday (Saturn-day). The other days of the week are named, in English, for Norse deities, but in French, for instance, the planetary system is clear. Tuesday is "mardi" (Mars- day), Wednesday is "mercredi" (Mercury-day), Thursday is "jeudi" (Jove-day), and Friday is "vendredi" (Venus-day).
The seven day week was all the more useful in that it blended closely into the lunar month, being about a quarter of that period of time. The passage of a week therefore signified a change in the phase of the moon - from new to first quarter, from first quarter to full, from full to third quarter, from third quarter to new again. Indeed, the very word "week" is from an old Teutonic word meaning "change."
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Message 122377 - Posted: 11 Jun 2005, 22:37:03 UTC

I'd like to see the church peoples faces when told that Adam was 8 and Eve was younger when Cain was born. LOL This fits the title of the thread "Controversial".
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Message 122380 - Posted: 11 Jun 2005, 22:46:31 UTC - in response to Message 122377.  
Last modified: 11 Jun 2005, 22:47:59 UTC

I'd like to see the church peoples faces when told that Adam was 8 and Eve was younger when Cain was born. LOL This fits the title of the thread "Controversial".


I don't think that the 'church people' would bat an eyelash on this one. They would likely explain it away by saying something like: "Adam and Eve were created as adults; the '8' would be years after Adam was created."

https://youtu.be/iY57ErBkFFE

#Texit

Don't blame me, I voted for Johnson(L) in 2016.

Truth is dangerous... especially when it challenges those in power.
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Message 122382 - Posted: 11 Jun 2005, 22:47:57 UTC - in response to Message 122377.  

The best part is, it is in the bible. I'd say the case is pretty solid too. BTW, is it wrong that I have this image of Miss Daisy (as in Driving Miss Daisy) keeling over as I tell her this, or is it just wrong because I find it funny ;)

A little controversy is a good thing... (and for some reason Sympathy for the Devil, just started from the playlist, friggin' weird).


Still looking for something profound or inspirational to place here.
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