US Statehood

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Message 81410 - Posted: 21 Feb 2005, 1:51:14 UTC

Bold new Idea

I think that the US government ought to set up a policy, and laws that allow Foreign countries to Vote their way into Statehood. I think maybe allow 5 countries per year would be a good start.

It seems to me the Hatred of the US is deeply rooted in the fact that WE have it so much better than people in any other country (excluding maybe one or two). they are jealous and that jealousy leads to hatred. Hatred that they don't have it as good as they feel they should.

This offer should extend only to democratic governments.
In my plan the Federal government would remain unaffected, except for the new senators and representatives. The Original Countries government would stay in power, but be renamed Governor, senate, house, etc.

This would probably lead to third world countries getting on the list before the bigger European countries. This fact would impact our economy to an extent as the new citizens got on the dole. The US Companies would be quick to start new businesses (given the low payroll) in the new State. This would employ the new citizens, and over time this employment, and new company profits would grow and the increase in taxes would start to even out the drag on our economy. Thus allowing us to bring on more new states.

This limit of say 5 new States, would create a competition to get on the list. After many poorer countries joined, the hatred would probably grow. This increase may lead to revolution in non democratic countries as their people see their neighbors getting in on the good stuff.

I have many other thoughts about this, but this should be sufficient to spawn debate.

tony


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Message 81416 - Posted: 21 Feb 2005, 2:10:43 UTC - in response to Message 81410.  

From the conversations that i've seen from people out side the US, they view us as imperialistic and war mongering. now obviously, I, as a US citizen, do not see as as imperialistic. We are not going out to claim new ground as colonies for ourselves. However, people see us as setting up "puppet governments" in outlying countries (ie. Iraq) I do not fully comprehend why people feel like we are setting up puppet governments, and personally it does strike a nerve when they say stuff like that. In fact, one person on these boards went as far as comparing the US to Hitler's Nazi Germany because of our pride in our country and our patriotism.

As far as us being war mongering, I don't beleive that either. Although I accept the fact that the information about WMD that was given to us citizens was flawed, i still think we did the right thing by going in to oust Saddam. Granted, our record is not without fault. We are not perfect, but we also worked to correct our faults and put an end to the abuses that were occuring.

Now, to further my rant, I honestly think that our federal government is getting too big. Our federal government is little by little gaining control of our individual rights and freedoms. The government continually takes away our choices in the name of safety, health, or some other name.

Anyone else to ramble on as I did? LOL

Jim

Bold new Idea
>
> I think that the US government ought to set up a policy, and laws that allow
> Foreign countries to Vote their way into Statehood. I think maybe allow 5
> countries per year would be a good start.
>
> It seems to me the Hatred of the US is deeply rooted in the fact that WE have
> it so much better than people in any other country (excluding maybe one or
> two). they are jealous and that jealousy leads to hatred. Hatred that they
> don't have it as good as they feel they should.
>

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Message 81635 - Posted: 21 Feb 2005, 17:20:55 UTC
Last modified: 21 Feb 2005, 17:31:46 UTC

Why should foreigners be allowed to reap the benefits MY ancestors died securing and preserving for me?

So they can be treated as an equal when the clearly are not?

That, my fellow American, is communisum.

Besides, when folks can vote for something that favors them, like politicians voting themselves pay raises at the taxpayers expense, then an obvious conflict of interest arises.

Anyway, there is a process for joining the Union vaguley outlined in the Constitution. THe summary is as follows:

1. A territory petitions Congress.
2. The dependent area drafts a constitution with a republican form of government.
3. Congress must approve statehood by a simple majority.
4. The President must sign the bill.


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Message 81652 - Posted: 21 Feb 2005, 18:27:35 UTC
Last modified: 21 Feb 2005, 18:34:45 UTC

I find myself in the position of having to agree with BrainSmasheR. We chose who we want to become a part of our Republic and not the other way around. However, I would like to point out that communism is just an economic system and has nothing to do with a territory applying for statehood. Any country that would want to become a part of the United States, would first have to become a territory first, subject to the administration of the U.S. goverment. And any territory would not necessarily become a state automatically, or ever for that matter.

My rant on a related subject is this: Why in the hell does our government allow illegal immigrants full legal right as citizens. These people are felons which have violated our borders. They should have no rights to our legal system. They should never be given the right to appeal their deportation. They should be excluded from suing anyone. Any childred they give birth to here should be excluded from citizenship.

I have no problems with anyone who enters the U.S. legally. These people have gone through the legal process and I welcome them. With the exception of the American Indian, we are all desendants for immigrants, but not border jumpers.

Rant over.

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Message 81702 - Posted: 21 Feb 2005, 21:21:00 UTC - in response to Message 81652.  

<rant>
"Woof" to the Dog, but it gets even more insane! Bloomberg's taken [an unfair amount of] flack for "failing to support" [and quite rightly so] the right for an inmigrant to vote.

When I heard that clip (I think it was one of the City Council members), I wanted to go downtown with my wicket and smack the guy upside the head - Maybe even knock some sense into him.

This is the stupidest, most un-American idea I've ever heard. Immgration, illegal or not, does not and should not constitute citizenship.

Anybody can rant and rave.
Anybody can sway my opinions in an election.
But vote? I wanna see some nationalization papers.
It's an earned privilege.
</rant>

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Message 81711 - Posted: 21 Feb 2005, 21:41:01 UTC - in response to Message 81652.  
Last modified: 21 Feb 2005, 21:41:12 UTC


> However, I would like to point out that communism is just an economic system
> and has nothing to do with a territory applying for statehood.

Agreed, my point was giving them a "vote", something our ancestors died securing for us, would be communisum because we would be making a body of people "equal" to American citizens when they clearly are not, on multiple levels.



> Why in the hell does our government
> allow illegal immigrants full legal right as citizens.

When did this happen?
Since when were "natural born citizens" considered immigrants?

Now don't take that the wrong way. I agree with what you are saying....at least one parent should be American before you can be "born" American. My point is that "natural born citizens" are not immigrants, and immigrants do not have any rights (above human rights) within our government.

.
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Message 81718 - Posted: 21 Feb 2005, 22:18:58 UTC

You Americans really take the cake.

Why would any country in their right mind join the United States?

As Jim Baise said, most of the rest of the world views the USA as a fascist, imperialistic, warmongering state.

If Peurto Rico insists on remaining a territory, despite all attempts short of force to make it a state of the Union, why should any other country want to join?
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Message 81741 - Posted: 21 Feb 2005, 23:45:40 UTC - in response to Message 81718.  

> You Americans really take the cake.
>
> Why would any country in their right mind join the United States?
>
Because like you we think America is better than the rest fo the World, and why wouldn't someone want to join the best Nation in the World. Don't you feel that way about your Country?

> As Jim Baise said, most of the rest of the world views the USA as a fascist,
> imperialistic, warmongering state.
>
Lots of people have said things both good and bad about EVERY nation in the World at one time or another. If you start believing what others say then you would believe that Switzerland was an enemy of the Jews because it did not provide enough help during WWII, Germany what more needs to be said other than WWII, France they haven't stood up for themselves in the whole of History, and on and on and on! NONE of that is TOTALLY true! ALL of it has a kernal of truth but so does everything people say about each other! The US has it's own problems we were the ONLY Country to EVER drop an Atomic bomb in anger!! And we did it TWICE!!!

> If Peurto Rico insists on remaining a territory, despite all attempts short of
> force to make it a state of the Union, why should any other country want to
> join?
>
Puerto Rico is under pressure because they already enjoy many benefits of statehood but very few of the disadvantages. That may change in the future if they continue to resist. "Times they are a changin'" as the saying goes.

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Message 81746 - Posted: 22 Feb 2005, 0:23:43 UTC - in response to Message 81718.  

 1: "No taxation without representation"
+2: Puerto Ricans don't pay income tax.
--- ----------
=3: Puerto Ricans don't want representation
Class dismissed.
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Message 81759 - Posted: 22 Feb 2005, 1:06:51 UTC - in response to Message 81718.  
Last modified: 22 Feb 2005, 1:09:06 UTC

> You Americans really take the cake.
>
> Why would any country in their right mind join the United States?
>
> As Jim Baise said, most of the rest of the world views the USA as a fascist,
> imperialistic, warmongering state.
>
> If Peurto Rico insists on remaining a territory, despite all attempts short of
> force to make it a state of the Union, why should any other country want to
> join?
>
>
Have it your way. Britian is fast becoming a colony of Pakistan. In the not to distant future the "offical" state religion won't be the Church of England, but Islam.

At least that may keep the Protestants and Catholics from trying to kill each other.

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Message 81764 - Posted: 22 Feb 2005, 1:39:14 UTC - in response to Message 81635.  

> Why should foreigners be allowed to reap the benefits MY ancestors died
> securing and preserving for me?
>
> So they can be treated as an equal when the clearly are not?
>
> That, my fellow American, is communisum.
>
> Besides, when folks can vote for something that favors them, like politicians
> voting themselves pay raises at the taxpayers expense, then an obvious
> conflict of interest arises.
>
> Anyway, there is a process for joining the Union vaguley outlined in the
> Constitution. THe summary is as follows:
>
> 1. A territory petitions Congress.
> 2. The dependent area drafts a constitution with a republican form of
> government.
> 3. Congress must approve statehood by a simple majority.
> 4. The President must sign the bill.
>

I would have to agree with what you have said here BrainSmashR. Allowing other countries to unite with America like that would probably not be fair to the rest of us at all. Besides, it would almost be impossible to get people from other countries in this way to understand our established sense of democracy.
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Message 81767 - Posted: 22 Feb 2005, 1:58:08 UTC - in response to Message 81759.  

> Have it your way. Britian is fast becoming a colony of Pakistan. In the not
> to distant future the "offical" state religion won't be the Church of England,
> but Islam.

Agreed, with a couple of fine points. Political Correctness here would forbid you to say Pakistan, you would then be racially targeting Pakistani's, you would have to say Asian's and/or Ethnic Minorities. The Church of England is only relevant if you are English, if you are Scottish (like me) it is of course the Church of Scotland, same for Wales & Ireland.


> At least that may keep the Protestants and Catholics from trying to kill each
> other.

LOL - "No chance"


The problem with Tony's "Bold New Idea" is that it's all been done before, the Romans, Russians, Germans, French, British, we have all tried running the large empire, where are they now? "exactly" gone, finished, down the pan...

Believe it or not though, we are all at it again, this time it's being called the EU (that's European Union to the uninformed), at present it is 25 members strong, with another 4 in the pipeline over the next few years.

As far as the EU goes, well I can't really find anything worth saying about it, so I won't. Others may have different views, go for it, free speech and all that...

So Tony, great idea, needs a bit more thought, 5 points for effort !

Willie



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Message 81769 - Posted: 22 Feb 2005, 2:08:58 UTC - in response to Message 81718.  

> As Jim Baise said, most of the rest of the world views the USA as a fascist,
> imperialistic, warmongering state.

My only response is look at the standard of living in most of the rest of the world. I don't really care what someone who baths twice a week or rides a mule to work thinks about America....and I'm d**ned sure not ashamed to say it either.



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Message 81772 - Posted: 22 Feb 2005, 2:21:53 UTC
Last modified: 22 Feb 2005, 2:23:16 UTC

thanks willie,

If I were to spend weeks formulating and laying out a plan, it would still be insufficient in many ways. I can think of several Afican countries where the people are killing eachother, or moreover the Governments are killing off their own citizens, that would probably jump at the chance to receive US assistance, both Financial and Law enforcement. Not to mention the industrialized businesses and employment opportunities.

I had forgotten about the whole Territory thing, thanks for reminding me. I've been out of school and the loop for 20+ years.

I was hoping that you fine people could pick the plan apart, and that action would help improve it. I'm not talking about the whole Illegal immigrants situation and that's a whole different topic.

I'm sure most africans wouldn't have a clue about how our Democracry works, but then the founding fathers were making it up as they went along and I'm sure others would eventually learn.

The European countries tried world domination by military force, the US hasn't taken anyone's land in all of our military actions (except the US native americans). I could care less to do so now. If the US wanted militaristic world domination by force Germany and Japan would certainly be US States by now, as would the Philippines. I'm talking about Voluntarily joining the US.

Any more thoughts?

thanks Tony

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Message 81862 - Posted: 22 Feb 2005, 13:09:46 UTC
Last modified: 22 Feb 2005, 13:24:21 UTC

Ohh, God. Where to start?

Take an easy point first I guess. NA, if any country can become a territory and citizens of a territory do not have to pay tax, why aren't there more territories?

Another easy point, I'm fairly sure your US Founding Fathers were working from well established plans of Republican Democracy. See the Imperial Republic of Rome for further information. As a side note, when did the UK bring the House of Commons, and the Office of the Prime Minister into governance?

Now to make some of my own points. As an Australian citizen (born to two Australian born parents) I can love no country other than this great country. However I am smart enough to realise that we have neither the manpower or the resources to adequately defend ourselves in the case of large scale warfare. Thus we continue to rely on our closest allies, both the UK and the US, to provide this defence when it is required. (See WWII - Pacific Theatre for US defence of Australia) Equally we are quick to come to their aid when it is requested. (See numerous historical references, notably WWI - Gallipoli, also WWII - African Theatre, and most recently both Afghanistan and Iraq (where we have recently doubled our troop commitment))

We hold many of the same values sacred. We are democratic and capitalistic. Our history bears similarities to the US in that we were colonised by Europeans in need of more land. We each have had, and to a point continue to have, troubles in dealing with our lands' original inhabitants. One key difference is that where US independance was won by the War of Independance, Australian Federation was secured by petitioning of the English Parliament, and any possible future independant Repuplic would be decided by all Australians and again it would be a war-free process. We have never had a civil-war, and it is not a likely possibility that we ever will. We have our own Constitution, which allows me many of the same rights as American citizens, though I don't feel a need to keep any firearms for my protection/safety.

Now as i sit here reading this message board, on a Dell P4 3.2GHz PC, drinking a cold coke and watching CSI:NY while speaking to my mate on my mobile (read cell) phone, I wonder...Why on earth would I envy an American?
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Message 81863 - Posted: 22 Feb 2005, 13:21:17 UTC

The Americans didn't take any land by military force?

Ever heard of the Phillipines, Cuba, and Peurto Rico?

The only reason why the Americans let the Phillipines go is WWII.
They still occupy part of Cuba, and Puerto Rico has already been covered.

Ever heard the term 'Manifest Destiny'?

If America had had to pay for all the technology (programmable computers, the jet engine, radar etc etc etc) that Britan GAVE to America during WWII, they would still be paying.
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Message 81868 - Posted: 22 Feb 2005, 13:42:13 UTC

Alaska petitioned for Statehood to get out from under the thumb of 'foreign' domination by the Federal Government machine.

Don't go thinking being a territory is any walk in the park

...............and what's more taxing than losing all your resources to your 'benefactors' without sufficient recompense?
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Message 81871 - Posted: 22 Feb 2005, 14:09:30 UTC

Re: It seems to me the Hatred of the US is deeply rooted in the fact that WE have it so much better than people in any other country (excluding maybe one or two). they are jealous and that jealousy leads to hatred. Hatred that they don't have it as good as they feel they should.


That's naive in the extreme, I think. America has completely different values to most other countries. Your complete arrogance is one of the main points against you.


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Message 81893 - Posted: 22 Feb 2005, 16:09:17 UTC

American territories include the Marianas, Marshals and Wake Island in the Pacific.

Alaska and Hawaii did not become states until after WW2.

The Phillipines were guaranteed their freedom from being a territory before WW2 started, but that was delayed because of WW2. Originally it was to have been in 1948.

Guam was paid $20.00 a year for each coconut tree that was destroyed during WW2. That money was distributed to Guam families. The Guamanians would not work for the US military, so Pilipinos were brought in to work. There was a limit on how long the money was to be paid, when it stopped the Guamanians demanded that the military hire them and send the Philipinos home. Now Guam is a tourist attraction for the Japanese to visit to pay respect for their relatives that died there.

Many Guam men had four very deep burn marks on their shoulder. Punishment by the Japanese for their lack of cooperation.

I have spent a total of a year on Guam, three months at a time. It is a beautiful Island.
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Message 82020 - Posted: 22 Feb 2005, 23:21:53 UTC - in response to Message 81410.  
Last modified: 22 Feb 2005, 23:25:17 UTC

> It seems to me the Hatred of the US is deeply rooted in the fact that WE have
> it so much better than people in any other country (excluding maybe one or
> two). they are jealous and that jealousy leads to hatred. Hatred that they
> don't have it as good as they feel they should.

Unbelievable, I really don't know what else to say to that.

Just out of interest, have you ever left the United States?


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