Alpha Client Release---POLL

Message boards : Number crunching : Alpha Client Release---POLL
Message board moderation

To post messages, you must log in.

1 · 2 · Next

AuthorMessage
Astro
Volunteer tester
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 16 Apr 02
Posts: 8026
Credit: 600,015
RAC: 0
Message 74294 - Posted: 26 Jan 2005, 17:05:04 UTC

It has been suggested that there are users of this message board that do not understand that the Alpha released clients (IE 4.14, 4.15, 4.16, 4.17, 4.18, and the like) possibly contain bugs, and that these bugs can do "Bad" things to your computer and/or WU's. I therefore request that these Users who do not know of the hazards involved PLEASE Post a note here.

I am of the belief that 94% of the readers of these boards already understand this. Of the remaining 6% there are disclaimers to be found on EVERY thread informing the Users of this risk. Now maybe... maybe 5% of the remaining 6% can't read english.. and to those I apologize for any possible harm I might have caused. Oh that's right.. If you can't read english they you couldn't have possible understood this apology, or the threads informing users of the updated clients.

IMO the improvement in the science end of these projects comes not just from the "crunching of WUs", but also from the debugging/improvement of the Client and the Applications. Given that most people are here to help and that most don't mind helping with both the crunching and the client debugging, I feel that keeping Users informed of a chance to help is an important part of this project. If Rom or some other developer (at berkeley) wants this activity to cease. I will stop helping the project as I feel I have been.

It's my belief (as is evident on the PPAH site) that the feedback from Users as to the problems found IS helping projects improve both ends of the science. As to the appropriateness of the Post, Client debugging is not just good for one particular project. It will benefit all projects. If one looks at these message boards, one will see numerous members of the "Berkeley" development team. This means that Berkeley is watching these pages. I have yet to see regular postings by any Berkeley developer on the other projects message boards. So, if a Boinc problem does occur it would seem only appropriate to report it here. (there is no second site that I know of anyway).

Thanks you for your time and cooperation. This thread will reveal the real facts as to the matter. Remember to post here if you DIDN'T know the threats of the Alpha Release Clients.

Tony

ID: 74294 · Report as offensive
Profile JigPu
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 16 Feb 00
Posts: 99
Credit: 2,513,738
RAC: 0
Message 74321 - Posted: 26 Jan 2005, 19:27:51 UTC
Last modified: 26 Jan 2005, 19:31:33 UTC

My original thoughts:
4.13 - "Release" version
4.14+ - "Stable", but not "Release" quality (thus why it's not an official download on this site)
4.5x/4.6x - "Alpha", run at your own risk.

I knew the 4.14+ releases wern't the cream of the crop, but I did not realize that they were considered experimental (probably beta, not alpha as you posted) until after reading several threads.

BOINC seriously needs to work on a beter version system, or at least incorporate a branch system. It's easy enough to see what are the alphas, but once you mix the betas in too it becomes too big of a mess.

Puffy
ID: 74321 · Report as offensive
Profile slavko.sk
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 27 Jun 00
Posts: 346
Credit: 417,028
RAC: 0
Slovakia
Message 74335 - Posted: 26 Jan 2005, 20:13:06 UTC

The biggest problem is that only 1% of all users are really reading Message Boards at all (I mean periodical, daily, or at leat every 48-72 hours). I really know all, lets say 100, people from forums and let assume that another 1000-5000 people are reading it at least one per week. But here are more then 80.000 people involved. I think that is a problem.
So maybe some mailing list to the all users (I know it is not easy, just an idea, but everybody should have an email) or different announcement of the news-like massages - probably via Messages tab in BOINC CC client (or issue new Tab in the client, let name it "News"), or something like that would help.
ALL GLORY TO THE HYPNOTOAD!
Potrebujete pomoc?
My Stats
ID: 74335 · Report as offensive
Profile UBT - Timbo
Volunteer tester

Send message
Joined: 3 Apr 99
Posts: 157
Credit: 10,720,947
RAC: 362
United Kingdom
Message 74358 - Posted: 26 Jan 2005, 22:19:53 UTC - in response to Message 74294.  

> It has been suggested that there are users of this message board that do not
> understand that the Alpha released clients (IE 4.14, 4.15, 4.16, 4.17, 4.18,
> and the like) possibly contain bugs, and that these bugs can do "Bad" things
> to your computer and/or WU's. I therefore request that these Users who do not
> know of the hazards involved PLEASE Post a note here.
>


Tony:

One of the problems is that BOINC has always been about have multiple projects so you can be crunching for one when no WU's are available for another.

And the biggest recent problems are that some projects have seemed to "break" BOINC and hence BOINC software has had to be fixed in order to resolve the issues.

In my case, as I crunch on numerous machines for all 6 public projects, it then means that I am having to update each host to ensure that the fix is in place for the projects that need the fix (otherwise maybe the work done is useless??).

So, if a problem is found with CPDN, then I have to update the BOINC client on machines that run CPDN (but they may also run other projects).

Then if the need for a BOINC update is made by Einstein, then a further update has to be done on these machines.

And if we get multiple new releases every week, then it becomes frustrating to try and keep everything uptodate.

(It would make so much more sense for BOINC to auto-update - at last on those platforms that support that function - if anti-virus programs (and otehr s/w can do it, why not BOINC ??).

And you are right to think that these projects need a central "system" to make crunchers aware of the need to update their s/w (assuming auto-updates aren't possible).

After all, we all signed up with particular email addresses - so the data is there to tell people to update.

rgds,

Timbo





regards,
Tim
Founder, UK BOINC Team
Join us @ UK BOINC Team: http://www.ukboincteam.org.uk/newforum
ID: 74358 · Report as offensive
Profile NickBrownsFan

Send message
Joined: 28 Sep 01
Posts: 24
Credit: 1,705,461
RAC: 0
United States
Message 74378 - Posted: 26 Jan 2005, 23:31:02 UTC
Last modified: 26 Jan 2005, 23:33:43 UTC

I dont think I would ever use nor want autoupdate on this project.
If it was a forced feature I would not use Boinc.
Its open source yes but most people dont know how to read code and all it would take is some kid with a grudge or bored hacker to write a client to find all the connected comps on autoupdate to run some code that would cause all sorts of problems.
The 25-50 different people that I see on this board are not a true reflection of the computer smarts of the common person doing seti2 IMHO.

Heck I dont trust BITS because I dont like anything going on in the background on my computer, especially downloading.

Most people online need protection from themselves because they dont look where links take them or question their email or any of the 1,000's of other things that people do everyday.

If the client stops working I'll check the message's tab on the client and start to search for information on whats wrong. If I need a client upgrade hopefully I wont have to wade through 10 posts about the 4 alpha client releases yesterday to find out what the working version actually is.

Imagine a first time user comes here sees this post:

Client 4.19 is here go get it
They open the message the board is set to newest first and the newest message which is set to show first(Edit)by default(end edit)is

Get it here - address

Copy and paste and off they go.
They never saw the disclaimer at all. *shrug*

Again, thats just my 2cp worth.
<a href="http://www.teampicard.net"><img src="http://boinc.mundayweb.com/seti2/stats.php?userID=2205&amp;trans=off"></a>
ID: 74378 · Report as offensive
Allan Taylor

Send message
Joined: 31 Jan 00
Posts: 32
Credit: 270,259
RAC: 0
Canada
Message 74421 - Posted: 27 Jan 2005, 1:23:37 UTC

I'm not sure I like the idea of an auto update, but I would like to see something that tells me what the latest and minimum core client is for each project. Then when the client connects to that project's scheduler it can update the list if the project wants a new client or has a new version available. Maybe have a box pop up telling the user that the project has a new client available with a short description of the changes.

This would make it easier for users to know which project is requiring the new client and allow them to only upgrade the systems that are running that project. Not quite auto update, but much easier for users to stay current without to much risk.




ID: 74421 · Report as offensive
Heffed
Volunteer tester

Send message
Joined: 19 Mar 02
Posts: 1856
Credit: 40,736
RAC: 0
United States
Message 74425 - Posted: 27 Jan 2005, 1:31:06 UTC

Auto-update of the Core Client was decided a bad idea long ago...

ID: 74425 · Report as offensive
Profile AthlonRob
Volunteer developer
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 18 May 99
Posts: 378
Credit: 7,041
RAC: 0
United States
Message 74502 - Posted: 27 Jan 2005, 7:18:53 UTC - in response to Message 74321.  

> I knew the 4.14+ releases wern't the cream of the crop, but I did not realize
> that they were considered experimental (probably beta, not alpha as you
> posted) until after reading several threads.

No, they were Alpha releases. There currently isn't any Beta going on... it goes from Alpha to release. I'd like to see Beta come back online, but I don't think that's going to happen until Astropulse is back... and I don't think Astropulse is going to be back until the current developers aren't being pulled in eleventeen different directions.

As to your comment that you didn't realize they were considered experimental, did you read the page you downloaded them from?

That whole "Development versions (latest features, possibly buggy)" thing should have clued you in.

> BOINC seriously needs to work on a beter version system, or at least
> incorporate a branch system. It's easy enough to see what are the alphas, but
> once you mix the betas in too it becomes too big of a mess.

There are no betas. And things are branched between the boinc_public (4.1x) and the development (4.6x currently) versions to help reduce confusion.

IMHO, the system works.

Rob
ID: 74502 · Report as offensive
7822531

Send message
Joined: 3 Apr 99
Posts: 820
Credit: 692
RAC: 0
Message 74530 - Posted: 27 Jan 2005, 10:09:42 UTC - in response to Message 74425.  

Auto-update of the Core Client was decided a bad idea long ago...
Agreed.
ID: 74530 · Report as offensive
Profile ralic
Volunteer tester

Send message
Joined: 6 Jan 00
Posts: 308
Credit: 274,230
RAC: 0
Message 74575 - Posted: 27 Jan 2005, 11:45:18 UTC

@The thread in general:

The current BOINC projects are divided into two groups:
Production
SAH
CPDN
Testing
PPAH
P@H
LHC
EAH

Similarly, there are two kinds of client software. Stable and development.
Stable software should be used on production projects and development software on test projects.

It's not that hard to keep track of, unless you want to use a single host to attach to both production and test projects. If you're doing this, then you need to ask yourself if you're really benefitting the production projects whose aim is good science. Think about that for a second before you get hot under the collar. I'm not questioning your intentions. I know that they are good, but trashing good production work due to 'helping' development projects is a bit suspect, isn't it?

Advice to those new to BOINC, stick to the production projects.

> I'm not sure I like the idea of an auto update, but I would like to see
> something that tells me what the latest and minimum core client is for each
> project. Then when the client connects to that project's scheduler it can
> update the list if the project wants a new client or has a new version
> available. Maybe have a box pop up telling the user that the project has a
> new client available with a short description of the changes.

@Allan Taylor:

Believe it or not, this mechanism is already built into BOINC. If the project administrators determine that a specific release is mandatory, there are config files that they can update and your client will be informed. You could receive a message such as:
SETI@home - 2004-11-14 14:52:05 - Message from server: No work available (your core client is out of date - please upgrade)

or

SETI@home - 2004-07-22 20:11:11 - Message from server: To participate in this project, you must use major version 4 of the BOINC core client. Your core client is major version 3.

@The thread in general:

[rant mode on]

What's happening right now is that the development projects are finding problems. These are being fixed and new test releases are being provided. These projects are indicating to their user base the availability of the new releases and requesting that they be installed for testing [their own projects].

Unfortunately, what is also happening is that people are seeing these notices on the development projects and posting the client details to production projects, like this one, and out of context. Usually including a "use at own risk" disclaimer. What isn't so clear is "use at project risk also".

Development project admins are excused from using the client update mechanism I mentioned before. They could use it if they wished, but they shouldn't be required to, until such time as their projects go into production.

If the project admins of a production project determine that a certain release is mandatory, your client will be advised accordingly. If you don't receive such a message from your attached project, stick with the client that you've got.

[rant mode off]
ID: 74575 · Report as offensive
Profile JigPu
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 16 Feb 00
Posts: 99
Credit: 2,513,738
RAC: 0
Message 74643 - Posted: 27 Jan 2005, 17:04:35 UTC - in response to Message 74502.  

> No, they were Alpha releases. There currently isn't any Beta going on... it
> goes from Alpha to release. I'd like to see Beta come back online, but I
> don't think that's going to happen until Astropulse is back... and I don't
> think Astropulse is going to be back until the current developers aren't being
> pulled in eleventeen different directions.
>
> As to your comment that you didn't realize they were considered experimental,
> did you read the page you downloaded them from?
>
> That whole "Development versions (latest features, possibly buggy)" thing
> should have clued you in.
>
Actually, I never downloaded the versions (or even check since 4.13 was working perfectly still) so I didn't know about that disclaimer. Had I gone, I may have noticed, I may not. I probably should have actually looked at the download page before posting, but I figured the point of the poll was "did you know 4.14+ is alpha?" (instead of "did they sufficiently disclaim that 4.14+ was alpha"), which I did not know.


> > BOINC seriously needs to work on a beter version system, or at least
> > incorporate a branch system. It's easy enough to see what are the alphas,
> but
> > once you mix the betas in too it becomes too big of a mess.
>
> There are no betas. And things are branched between the boinc_public (4.1x)
> and the development (4.6x currently) versions to help reduce confusion.
>
> IMHO, the system works.
>
>
They may not be betas as far as name goes, but by function I'd say that's what they are. Code dosen't just appear in them without first appearing and going through some testing in the develoment tree (from what I've read). In this stage, it's only tested by the handful of people running the alphas. Once the code has been there a while and isn't causing problems, it's ported over to the public tree and a new experimental version is released and downloaded by a significantly higher number of people. After any new bugs are worked out, a stable version is released.

Call me crazy, but that sounds almost exactly like the beta development stage of an app. They can call it an alpha all they want, but I still contend that by the time it's ported to the public tree, it's been pruned enough in the development tree that it isn't really an alpha anymore. Sure Astropulse is down, but that just means there's no official group who have signed up specifically to try out beta builds, not that beta code dosen't any longer exist IMHO.


PS: Nice to see ya AthlonRob =)

Puffy
ID: 74643 · Report as offensive
Astro
Volunteer tester
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 16 Apr 02
Posts: 8026
Credit: 600,015
RAC: 0
Message 74646 - Posted: 27 Jan 2005, 17:40:50 UTC - in response to Message 74643.  

Puffy, To be honest with you, you shouldn't feel alone. I don't really understand the Alpha/Beta thing either. I just know that whatever it's named, it is still just software to be tried. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that each update is basically the same as the previous version with a couple small changes.

Thank you for your participation in this. You bring a new light to a room of old bulbs.

tony

ID: 74646 · Report as offensive
PlaNed
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 19 Jul 01
Posts: 28
Credit: 321,251
RAC: 0
Bulgaria
Message 74649 - Posted: 27 Jan 2005, 18:03:32 UTC

From Download BOINC client software you can read:
Current version
Version 4.19 (released 25 Jan 2005)

Not for E@H or PP@H or S@H or CPDN - for ALL

Or need make:
- BOINC for AAH
- BOINC for BAH
...
- BOINC for EAH ...
...
- BOINC for PAH
- BOINC for SAH
...

I think, better say goodbye BOINC and return to S@H classic ;-) ???

ID: 74649 · Report as offensive
Profile Saenger
Volunteer tester
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 3 Apr 99
Posts: 2452
Credit: 33,281
RAC: 0
Germany
Message 74654 - Posted: 27 Jan 2005, 18:27:06 UTC - in response to Message 74649.  

> From Download BOINC
> client software
you can read:
> Current version
> Version 4.19 (released 25 Jan 2005)

That's right. Although the 'dev=1' in your link means afaik 'developers versions'.

But I just looked at the S@H homepage, and strange things are happening...

If you click on the 'Get Started..Step3..Download' link on the bottom left side you are led to the 4.13 on S@H.

If you click on the 'Download' link at the top of the page at 'Participate' you are led to the 4.19 at BOINC.

What has gone wrong?

Gruesse vom Saenger

For questions about Boinc look in the BOINC-Wiki
ID: 74654 · Report as offensive
7822531

Send message
Joined: 3 Apr 99
Posts: 820
Credit: 692
RAC: 0
Message 74673 - Posted: 27 Jan 2005, 19:11:40 UTC - in response to Message 74654.  

Looks like someone forgot to update the HTML... feels like I'm a ping-pong ball...
ID: 74673 · Report as offensive
Profile mikey
Volunteer tester
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 17 Dec 99
Posts: 4215
Credit: 3,474,603
RAC: 0
United States
Message 74676 - Posted: 27 Jan 2005, 19:19:53 UTC - in response to Message 74575.  

> [rant mode on]
>
> What's happening right now is that the development projects are finding
> problems. These are being fixed and new test releases are being provided.
> These projects are indicating to their user base the availability of the new
> releases and requesting that they be installed for testing [their own
> projects].
>
> Unfortunately, what is also happening is that people are seeing these notices
> on the development projects and posting the client details to production
> projects, like this one, and out of context. Usually including a "use at own
> risk" disclaimer. What isn't so clear is "use at project risk also".
>
> Development project admins are excused from using the client update mechanism
> I mentioned before. They could use it if they wished, but they shouldn't be
> required to, until such time as their projects go into production.
>
> If the project admins of a production project determine that a certain release
> is mandatory, your client will be advised accordingly. If you don't receive
> such a message from your attached project, stick with the client that you've
> got.
>
> [rant mode off]
>
Wouldn't it just be easier to only allow certain users, you already have our id's, to use certain versions of the software depending on which project we are signing on to?
I mean I am signed up for Seti only, why not just ban my user ID from any version that is not a released for some project one. That would mean that I could not use ANY of 4.6x versions of the software. BUT that I COULD use any of the other ones because I COULD sign up for the other projects. Then when/if I do sign up for one of the other projects the software would be checked and your message would come up.
This would cut down on alot of the problems users are having seeing as there is no control of the software and users are posting problems for software that they need not be running.
Alternatively a warning should come up when upgrading to a version that is above the minimum required for a project. The warning could say "You are using a version of the program that has possible bugs in it, do you wish to continue? Any work done could result in no credits being awarded while using this pre-release version." Or something like that, thereby warning the user of the foolishness of their ways. This would come up BEFORE the software is installed, so if the user chose "no" then the installation would abort.

ID: 74676 · Report as offensive
Ingleside
Volunteer developer

Send message
Joined: 4 Feb 03
Posts: 1546
Credit: 15,832,022
RAC: 13
Norway
Message 74687 - Posted: 27 Jan 2005, 19:41:24 UTC - in response to Message 74676.  

> Wouldn't it just be easier to only allow certain users, you already have our
> id's, to use certain versions of the software depending on which project we
> are signing on to?
> I mean I am signed up for Seti only, why not just ban my user ID from any
> version that is not a released for some project one. That would mean that I
> could not use ANY of 4.6x versions of the software. BUT that I COULD use any
> of the other ones because I COULD sign up for the other projects. Then when/if
> I do sign up for one of the other projects the software would be checked and
> your message would come up.

Just a problem, different projects are independent, and one project don't know whatever other projects you're part of, only knows you are part of another if your asking for work and your resource_share_fraction is less than 1.

Therefore, can't know if you are running Einstein@home or BOINC alpha or another alpha/beta-project and must use one of the development-builds, or for that matter if you've downloaded & compiled the source yourself.

Previously the client advertised all other projects you was part of, but this was for various reasons disabled.
ID: 74687 · Report as offensive
Heffed
Volunteer tester

Send message
Joined: 19 Mar 02
Posts: 1856
Credit: 40,736
RAC: 0
United States
Message 74704 - Posted: 27 Jan 2005, 20:12:07 UTC - in response to Message 74646.  

> Puffy, To be honest with you, you shouldn't feel alone. I don't really
> understand the Alpha/Beta thing either. I just know that whatever it's named,
> it is still just software to be tried. I'm sure someone will correct me if
> I'm wrong, but I think that each update is basically the same as the previous
> version with a couple small changes.

The beta step was killed when the public project came online.

ID: 74704 · Report as offensive
PlaNed
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 19 Jul 01
Posts: 28
Credit: 321,251
RAC: 0
Bulgaria
Message 74749 - Posted: 27 Jan 2005, 22:44:32 UTC - in response to Message 74654.  
Last modified: 27 Jan 2005, 22:51:18 UTC

To Saenger
==================

> But I just looked at the S@H homepage, and strange things are happening...
>
> If you click on the 'Get Started..Step3..Download' link on the bottom left
> side you are led to the
> 4.13
on S@H.
>
> If you click on the 'Download' link at the top of the page at 'Participate'
> you are led to the 4.19
> at BOINC.
>
> What has gone wrong?
>

Please, make same that you write ?????

PARTICIPATE
Rules and policies
Create account
Download

Plamen

ID: 74749 · Report as offensive
Jan Inge

Send message
Joined: 24 Sep 02
Posts: 21
Credit: 1,655,076
RAC: 0
Norway
Message 74841 - Posted: 28 Jan 2005, 4:46:26 UTC

Since both download links on the front page now leads to
http://boinc.berkeley.edu/download.php
Where you can download Boinc v4,19, I would say that the
people behind Boinc don't consider those versions alpha.
If v4,19 was alpha they would'nt release it to the public
so fast.
ID: 74841 · Report as offensive
1 · 2 · Next

Message boards : Number crunching : Alpha Client Release---POLL


 
©2024 University of California
 
SETI@home and Astropulse are funded by grants from the National Science Foundation, NASA, and donations from SETI@home volunteers. AstroPulse is funded in part by the NSF through grant AST-0307956.