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Paul Zimmerman
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Message 74001 - Posted: 25 Jan 2005, 11:53:32 UTC

I'm brand new to crunching.

I can only use OS X 10.2.8 on a G4 Mac laptop just now.

I understand Boinc is not supported yet on that system.

In the meantime, I was able to begin crunching on Classic.

I've left questions on the Questions board, at least I think I did. I see no confirmation when I follow the directions to repeat previously asked questions.

So here I am and I hope you can help.

How will I be notified of the answers on the Question page when they are forthcoming?

Why is there such a wide variation of crunch time on WU's. Is it only because they are all so different, maybe some are more densely packed with data?

I had a WU go through in mere minutes and in another example, my last one took 18 hours.

Before you answer, please be aware that I will understand nothing if you use code language, or tech terms. I'm barely literate in computorese.

Oh, and is overheating a documented problem with Mac G4 laptops.


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Profile Daykay
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Message 74003 - Posted: 25 Jan 2005, 12:02:09 UTC - in response to Message 74001.  

> So here I am and I hope you can help.

I hope so too...

> How will I be notified of the answers on the Question page when they are
> forthcoming?

Check for answers regularly.

> Why is there such a wide variation of crunch time on WU's. Is it only >because they are all so different, maybe some are more densely packed with >data? I had a WU go through in mere minutes and in another example, my last >one took 18 hours.

I believe that some WUs contain more points of interest, these interesting points require further analysis. Though i doubt this would account for an 18 hour difference.

> Before you answer, please be aware that I will understand nothing if you use
> code language, or tech terms. I'm barely literate in computorese.
>
> Oh, and is overheating a documented problem with Mac G4 laptops.

And to this i have no idea. Hope the rest of what i said is true and helpful. If not i'm sure there will be someone else who can do a better job.
Kolch - Crunching for the BOINC@Australia team since July 2004.
Search for your own intelligence...
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Message 74013 - Posted: 25 Jan 2005, 13:10:00 UTC - in response to Message 74001.  
Last modified: 25 Jan 2005, 13:12:08 UTC

> How will I be notified of the answers on the Question page when they are
> forthcoming?
>

Hi Paul,

In regards to notification, After you describe your problem and post it
in the upper left corner there will be a link the states (subscribe to this thread) and when an answer is posted or remark, you will receive an email
alerting you that some one has posted!

Timmy


EDIT: I Subcribed to this thread!

Subscription successful

You are now subscribed to forgive my intrusion..... You will receive an email whenever another user posts to this thread.


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Profile Paul D. Buck
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Message 74024 - Posted: 25 Jan 2005, 14:07:03 UTC - in response to Message 74001.  

> I'm brand new to crunching.

Welcome!

> I can only use OS X 10.2.8 on a G4 Mac laptop just now.
>
> I understand Boinc is not supported yet on that system.

I am not sure, but I believe our minimum was OS-X, when I look at the BOINC site it says OS-X, which would include you, but the SETI@Home Site says 10.3 ... so, hopefully some one who knows will be able to tell us for sure. The mac client right now is a command line program, and the install instructions say :...Mac OS X 10.2 (jaguar) ..." so, theory says you can do it.

My install process is oriented to Panther, but you may be able to use it too. I did not use any specific non-Apple tools or that ...

If you go the the Documentation Site follow the Pilot ... there is a step by step (step 9 I think) which has a link to another procedure jsut for the Mac.

E-Mail me (use the mail boxes on the site) if I can help any more ...

> In the meantime, I was able to begin crunching on Classic.

Good as anyplace to start.

> I've left questions on the Questions board, at least I think I did. I see no
> confirmation when I follow the directions to repeat previously asked
> questions.
>
> So here I am and I hope you can help.

Hi!

> Why is there such a wide variation of crunch time on WU's. Is it only because
> they are all so different, maybe some are more densely packed with data?

There are a number of reasons, if you mouse down into the SETI@Home FAQ we talk to this with charts, graphs, and tables ...

> I had a WU go through in mere minutes and in another example, my last one took
> 18 hours.

Then the 18 hours is likely the "norm" for your machine. The REAL fast ones SETI@Home figured out early that there was nothing of interest beyond incredible amounts of noise.

> Before you answer, please be aware that I will understand nothing if you use
> code language, or tech terms. I'm barely literate in computorese.

Oh Frameltiz ... I bet you understand more than you think ... Spend some time reading my site (300 pages and counting) and I talk about everything. ... 480 some odd FAQ topics now in the database ...

> Oh, and is overheating a documented problem with Mac G4 laptops.

Laptops are not desktops, so they were really never intended to be on all the time, and even if on, that you would not be using it much. So, heating is a problem because the Laptop is computing ALL THE TIME.

One work around is to get:

a) a fan like you use in the summertime to fan you ... and
b) a wire rack that you can place under the laptop ... and then

start the laptop, start the fan, make sure the fan is blowing over and under the laptop ...

OR,

c) get a real computer ... :)

My Dual G5, though its a slow one (only 2.0 GHz) does a SETI@Home WU in 2 to 3 hours ... time is fun when you are having flies ...
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Profile Pooh Bear 27
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Message 74026 - Posted: 25 Jan 2005, 14:14:37 UTC

There is a version for 10.2.8 and up here:
http://setiweb.ssl.berkeley.edu/download_other.php

See if that will work for you. I do not have OS X currently, so I can not test any of the Boinc on my old G3.

My movie https://vimeo.com/manage/videos/502242
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Message 74050 - Posted: 25 Jan 2005, 18:00:49 UTC - in response to Message 74001.  

> Oh, and is overheating a documented problem with Mac G4 laptops.

Any time you run a laptop at 100% for extended periods of time, it's going to overheat. That's just a fact of life. Laptops weren't designed with things like SETI@Home in mind.

While you *can* minimize the damage done to your system as Paul suggested (running a fan on the thing constantly), that's not really ideal, and not foolproof. Due to the closed-up nature of laptops, you're still putting a ton of heat into a small little box that can't escape easily, leading to very toasty components. It *will* shorten your laptop's already short lifespan.

I wouldn't run any distributed computing software on a laptop unless it was a disposable beast...

Rob
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Message 74054 - Posted: 25 Jan 2005, 18:19:38 UTC

i've never understood that....i've run distributed computer projects on my laptop for the past 4 years, 24/7.....still ticking.....
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Profile MattDavis
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Message 74055 - Posted: 25 Jan 2005, 18:22:12 UTC - in response to Message 74054.  

> i've never understood that....i've run distributed computer projects on my
> laptop for the past 4 years, 24/7.....still ticking.....
>

Maybe it's ticking because it's about to explode 8)
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Message 74079 - Posted: 25 Jan 2005, 20:14:55 UTC

Depends on how hot the laptop gets. Some laptops I've seen get REALLY hot when under full load for extended periods of time. Others seem to be able to breathe much easier and stay cool. The Gateway laptop I'm on right now is a reasonable example of the latter, only warming the base of the laptop a little after letting it crunch all night. Amazingly, it stays "cool" even with a 2.8 Prescott in the thing =D My Vaio is an example of the former, getting up to temps which would probably burn you if you kept contact for more than about a miniute. The thing is on it's last crutches anyway though, so I keep it crunching just for kicks.

If the G4 lappies get hot after several hours of running full load, I probably wouldn't run SETI on them. If they get only mildly warm to the touch, it's probably safe, but you're decreasing it's lifespan by having the fan and HD run more often.

Puffy
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Paul Zimmerman
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Message 74119 - Posted: 25 Jan 2005, 22:50:19 UTC

Thanks to one and all,

On the WU's, I only wanted to know if something was wrong on my end to create such disparity.

>On the overheating thing..... well, nothing lasts forever, though I will initiate the suggested tips to keep it cool while crunching.

>The link pooh bear gave me, unfortunately leads back to where I've been stopped before.

This is the screen capture:
________________
Mac OS X 10.2.8

No current versions
________________

So, I'll stick with Classic for now and wait for the promised fix that's in the pipe.

>paul,

I'll pursue your suggestions on your site, see what I can find.

And paul, none of us yet has a real computor. (heh heh)

Again thanks all,
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Message 74141 - Posted: 26 Jan 2005, 0:00:45 UTC - in response to Message 74119.  


> >On the overheating thing..... well, nothing lasts forever, though I will
> initiate the suggested tips to keep it cool while crunching.
>

Hi, Paul. I ran SETI Classic for several months on my G4 PowerBook with no problems - last September, I switched to the BOINC version and still have no problems with overheating. If you can't find a wire rack, as Paul Buck suggests, you can do like I do and just place two new pencils on the desk about a foot apart and set the laptop on them. Keeping the laptop off the desk lets the air circulate naturally and convection currents seem to be enough to prevent overheating. Also, go into your System Preferences and set the screen to go to black after about 5 or 10 minutes. This will use less power and help your power supply stay cooler also.
One way to speed up your work unit completion times a little bit is to turn off the screensaver. If you set the screen to go black, then it won't burn in anything, and the screensaver won't be stealing computer clock cycles from SETI number crunching. Also, at night if you QUIT all applications other than SETI, it will also free up more computer clock cycles for number crunching. Go to your Applications/Utilities Folder and click on CPU Monitor. Then from the menu, click Processes and then select Display Expanded Window. Next, click on Processes again, and select Open Process Viewer. The expanded window shows graphically what your CPU is doing, and the Process Viewer lists all the processes (applications and extensions) that are running and the percentage each uses of the CPU at that instant in time. Try it with nother but SETI open, and then with SETI and a few other applications open...

C



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Profile Paul D. Buck
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Message 74146 - Posted: 26 Jan 2005, 0:20:26 UTC - in response to Message 74119.  

> Mac OS X 10.2.8
>
> No current versions
> ________________
>

The basic download site says OS-X without disclaimer, worse that can happen is it won't run ... The "standard" installation instructions tell you how to install it ...

Or mine.

Step 9 Has the step by step how-to for the mac with exactly how I did it. I know they work because I lunched something once and forgot how I did it ...

So, I am only writing this stuff down for my own benefit ... :)
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Message 74278 - Posted: 26 Jan 2005, 14:02:37 UTC - in response to Message 74013.  

> > How will I be notified of the answers on the Question page when they are
> > forthcoming?
> >
>
> Hi Paul,
>
> In regards to notification, After you describe your problem and post it
> in the upper left corner there will be a link the states (subscribe to this
> thread) and when an answer is posted or remark, you will receive an email
> alerting you that some one has posted!
>
> Timmy
>
>
> EDIT: I Subcribed to this thread!
>
> Subscription successful
>
> You are now subscribed to forgive my intrusion..... You will receive an email
> whenever another user posts to this thread.
>

Ah, so that's what that is for! I always wondered about it, but wasn't interested in it enough to ask about it. Thanks Captain.... :-)

L8R....

---

My Time: Wednesday, 26 January 2005 - 06:02 AM --800 (Pacific Standard Time)

CAPT Siran d'Vel'nahr - L L & P _\\//
Winders 11 OS? "What a piece of junk!" - L. Skywalker
"Logic is the cement of our civilization with which we ascend from chaos using reason as our guide." - T'Plana-hath
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Paul Zimmerman
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Message 74373 - Posted: 26 Jan 2005, 23:24:49 UTC
Last modified: 26 Jan 2005, 23:35:10 UTC

C,

I had noticed the excess heat and I've elevated my machine for the increased airflow.

I had received and had initiated the screen tips, so that's as suggested.

Does 'sleep mode' make a difference? I have that power saver option set to cause my machine to go to 'sleep' in a fairly short time. Is that stopping the crunching? I can make little sense of the graphics, the cpu time does not 'suspend' while the machine is in sleep mode, so I assume it's still crunching in sleep mode. Is this incorrect?

I've looked at the Process listing and the cpu moniter a number of times before. Didn't understand much of what I was seeing then and not much more now.

Wondered about turning things off... Thought to myself, "why do I need all that stuff running."

Don't know why most of what's listed is running, don't know what activity is taking place when it tells me such and such is running, don't know what initiates most of what's there or why it's running. Thought if I turned something off, ....it would end up to be something that should be on.

Just don't much know what I'm doing, Under 'status' I have 41 processes listed as running. Most show no % of cpu. 'User' is listed as myself, root? and one, an oddity to me shows user as 'nobody'. What the heck is that?

I'll stop for now. As you can most likely see, my knowledge of the internal/infernals is minimal. Not sure even where to find some of this stuff to 'turn it off', let alone be sure 'how' to turn it off. (not everything, I can turn off apps, at least I think I can)

How do you say ....'at sea'.... in computerese?

I live in a rural area, no corner Apple store to duck into, or I would have on numerous occasions before now.

Paul,

I'm still leery about 'installing' a Boinc version which I am told is unsupported. If I do something which makes this machine act funny, I would have no clue as to how to return it to 'normal'. I appreciate your input and I may yet try as you suggest, but am holding back for the reasons stated. Maybe I am just paranoid because I don't understand enough?

When I see instructions like this:

> Use gunzip to uncompress if your browser has not done it for you. Then chmod +x the executable and run it.

It's all strangeness too me. Chmod+x the executable.. uh, excuse me?...... I can hardly trim my own cuticles.

**** anyone know what a .sit file is? It ended up on my desktop, don't know where it came from exactly.... it just showed up it says "InstalSETI@homeOSX.sit" ????

It showed up after I had installed the Classic download, it did not appear to come 'with' the Classic download. It just 'arrived' some time later..... ???? I thought it might be some kind of update, but I have never heard of downloads 'arriving' on their own.

It's probably something I did, but I have no recollection of doing that or requesting it.




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Profile Paul D. Buck
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Message 74385 - Posted: 26 Jan 2005, 23:53:41 UTC - in response to Message 74373.  

> C,
>
> I had noticed the excess heat and I've elevated my machine for the increased
> airflow.
>
> I had received and had initiated the screen tips, so that's as suggested.
>
> Does 'sleep mode' make a difference? I have that power saver option set to
> cause my machine to go to 'sleep' in a fairly short time. Is that stopping
> the crunching? I can make little sense of the graphics, the cpu time does not
> 'suspend' while the machine is in sleep mode, so I assume it's still crunching
> in sleep mode. Is this incorrect?

Yes, in "sleep" mode, the CPU sleeps and basically does not run, unless you have a program that interrupts sleeping. Since I have NEVER put a computer to sleep, I always have them slaving away, I am not the best guy on this.

> I've looked at the Process listing and the cpu moniter a number of times
> before. Didn't understand much of what I was seeing then and not much more
> now.
>
> Wondered about turning things off... Thought to myself, "why do I need all
> that stuff running."
>
> Don't know why most of what's listed is running, don't know what activity is
> taking place when it tells me such and such is running, don't know what
> initiates most of what's there or why it's running. Thought if I turned
> something off, ....it would end up to be something that should be on.

That is one of the bad things about most Operating Systems. The processes that are running have no obvious connection with what you really do need to have running. In a day REAL SOON NOW, Microsoft has said that they were going to fix that ... One of the ones that makes me mad is they have a process called Messenger and it has NOTHING to do with what most people associate with that name. WHat is really interesting is that it was a service that the spammers turned to their own use ...

> Just don't much know what I'm doing, Under 'status' I have 41 processes
> listed as running. Most show no % of cpu. 'User' is listed as myself, root?
> and one, an oddity to me shows user as 'nobody'. What the heck is that?

WHo the heck knows ... I agree and cannot help much here ... but if you run AV and a mal-ware detector, they can get rid of the evil ones...

> I'll stop for now. As you can most likely see, my knowledge of the
> internal/infernals is minimal. Not sure even where to find some of this stuff
> to 'turn it off', let alone be sure 'how' to turn it off. (not everything, I
> can turn off apps, at least I think I can)
>
> How do you say ....'at sea'.... in computerese?
>
> I live in a rural area, no corner Apple store to duck into, or I would have on
> numerous occasions before now.
>
> Paul,
>
> I'm still leery about 'installing' a Boinc version which I am told is
> unsupported. If I do something which makes this machine act funny, I would
> have no clue as to how to return it to 'normal'. I appreciate your input and I
> may yet try as you suggest, but am holding back for the reasons stated. Maybe
> I am just paranoid because I don't understand enough?

If you stick with the earlier versions, 4.19 right now, they work just fine. I have it runing right now, and aside from no interface it is doing Ok, since I have 6 computers I am running BOINC View on one of the Windows machines and it lets me watch the MAC via telepathy ...

> When I see instructions like this:
>
> > Use gunzip to uncompress if your browser has not done it for you. Then
> chmod +x the executable and run it.
>
> It's all strangeness too me. Chmod+x the executable.. uh, excuse me?...... I
> can hardly trim my own cuticles.
>
> **** anyone know what a .sit file is? It ended up on my desktop, don't know
> where it came from exactly.... it just showed up it says
> "InstalSETI@homeOSX.sit" ????
>
> It showed up after I had installed the Classic download, it did not appear to
> come 'with' the Classic download. It just 'arrived' some time later.....
> ???? I thought it might be some kind of update, but I have never heard of
> downloads 'arriving' on their own.

A "sit" is a file type that is very much like a ZIP compressed file. I think you can UnStuff it and go from there.

> It's probably something I did, but I have no recollection of doing that or
> requesting it.

If you click on the link, pop! the file downloads.

As far as installing BOINC, like I said, you can take a look at my process ... it has a picture for each step, and for some, a before and after. Anyway, jsut a thought ... in theory the cross-project GUI will be here soon ...

Yeah, I know, buy I *AM* under psychiatric care as we speak ... though I am pretty annoyed at Nancy .... she hid my axe again... now I ask you ... how can I keep in practice as an insane axe killer if I cannot find my axe?

I tried butter knives, but the headlines were embarassing ...
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Message 74400 - Posted: 27 Jan 2005, 0:17:03 UTC

I've let this bad boy of a PowerBook run for a week non-stop just crunching - nothing bad happened.
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Message 74450 - Posted: 27 Jan 2005, 2:41:27 UTC

Paul D Buck:

since I have 6 computers I am running BOINC View on one of the Windows machines and it lets me watch the MAC via telepathy ...

This from a man writing the documentation? Tut-tut ;) It's not telepathy it's RPC - Really Pretty Cool.

Crunch on :)
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Message 74472 - Posted: 27 Jan 2005, 3:34:27 UTC

I thought a centrino laptop could run SETI or any other DC project 24/7 and never overheat.

Was I misinformed?

Thanks.
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Message 74485 - Posted: 27 Jan 2005, 4:41:24 UTC - in response to Message 74373.  

...
> Does 'sleep mode' make a difference? I have that power saver option set to
> cause my machine to go to 'sleep' in a fairly short time. Is that stopping
> the crunching? I can make little sense of the graphics, the cpu time does not
> 'suspend' while the machine is in sleep mode, so I assume it's still crunching
> in sleep mode. Is this incorrect?

When the Mac sleeps, the CPU basically does nothing, the hard drive is parked (turned off) and the screen is even blank. I set my Energy Saver Preferences so that the computer goes to sleep NEVER, but the display goes to sleep after 5 minutes (when i'm hooked up to Power Adapter); and in Battery Power, I set it to put the computer to sleep after 5 minutes, and the display at the same time - this way, the computer will continue to crunch numbers for me if I'm plugged into the wall, but will not waste the battery if I am not.

> I've looked at the Process listing and the cpu moniter a number of times
> before. Didn't understand much of what I was seeing then and not much more
> now.
>
> Wondered about turning things off... Thought to myself, "why do I need all
> that stuff running."
>
> Don't know why most of what's listed is running, don't know what activity is
> taking place when it tells me such and such is running, don't know what
> initiates most of what's there or why it's running. Thought if I turned
> something off, ....it would end up to be something that should be on.

I think you're right to not mess with the stuff in the Process listing. I mentioned it so you can look at any applications and see how much computing power they use - most of that stuff are equivalent of system extensions and should not be touched.

...

> **** anyone know what a .sit file is? It ended up on my desktop, don't know
> where it came from exactly.... it just showed up it says
> "InstalSETI@homeOSX.sit" ????
>
> It showed up after I had installed the Classic download, it did not appear to
> come 'with' the Classic download. It just 'arrived' some time later.....
> ???? I thought it might be some kind of update, but I have never heard of
> downloads 'arriving' on their own.

A .sit file is a stuffit file - it's been compressed to take less time for you to download. Assuming you used Safari for your browser, when you downloaded the SETI file, it put the .sit file on your desktop, and automatically "unstuffed" it, then probably it began to automatically install itself (some do, some don't). I'd suggest just moving the .sit file into a Downloads folder on your hard drive. You don't need it now, but if you save it somewhere, you'll already have it if you need to re-install - no need to go search and download it again. Or, you can just trash it...

C

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Paul Zimmerman
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Message 74509 - Posted: 27 Jan 2005, 8:00:09 UTC
Last modified: 27 Jan 2005, 8:35:45 UTC

C,

OK, I went back and fine tuned my sleep/energy/screensaver adjustments as you suggested. I see the distinction and didn't make clear that I had seperate settings for battery and plug in. Good to go now.

I don't have a grasp of the processor performance toggle thing in the Energy Saver window. It's found after you click the options button on that window. It says Processor Performance and the two choices are reduced and highest. It is visible in the plug in option as well as the battery option.

Do I want to keep that at reduced so I can run other apps? Or should that be on highest to 'boost' my cpu performance?

(Be nice if I had some kind of manual, that apple-help thing makes me crazy, I never can seem to find where to get the answers I'm looking for )

I think you revealed the .sit file mystery for me too, at least the how it got here part.

I have an Explorer browser that I prefer only because I was used to it when I got the Mac. Same reason I use Entourage, instead of the Mac Address Mail.

So what happened is that when I initiate some downloads, even though I think I have the settings to designate Explorer to be my default, for some reason Safari will open on the desk top instead sometimes. That did happen once when trying to download an install for seti. I don't remember which one. ? I quit the Safari app. but it must have either finished the download, or kept loading and voila, there is the .sit file.

I didn't 'see' it do an install. I think the Classic app I am running is one I did download from an Explorer window and it came with license agreement file, a read me file, and the install. It took me through a 'wizard' type step by step install. Now that program or app is in my applications file and that is what's crunching for me. That is designated version SETI@home 3.08 There is a seperate file in my applications file that in addition to the license agreement and the read me, is also a script for uninstall and release notes.

(maybe none of this is relevant.......)

Anyway, back to the .sit file, ....without opening it, is there a way to tell if it's just another set of what I already have? Get Info just tells me it's a .sit file. If I click or open the .sit file, a window does open showing unstuff progress. (I canceled that), I was concerned that if it tried to do another install by itself, I may then not be able to differentiate between the two apps.

(I feel dumber the longer I write this stuff.... bear with me please..)

I'm real tempted to just trash it (the sit file) and be done with it.

The reason I haven't is I want to make sure version 3.08 is adequate for what I'm doing now? If not, even though it is running, should I pursue another SETI@home version now?

Or call it good enough and go on to attempting to get some version of BOINC installed?

And do I understand that I need boinc if I am going to participate in any other programs besides seti?

Will BOINC be an improvement on crunch time? etc, what's the benefit of boinc over SETI@home?

Thanks for all your time C, I really appreciate it.

pz
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Paul,

I didn't forget you...either.

Are you saying you are running Boinc 4.19 on a Mac running OS X 10.2.8? and if I read you correctly, you are, only you have no interface, (I assume here you mean the graphics type window that shows what's happening).

Now that's not a problem for you because you have another machine monitering the action and you can 'see' what's happening there?

Since I don't have the other set up like yours, how will I see what's happening?

Not sure I want to intentionally put some more stuff on here that I can neither see or tell what it's doing..... if you get my meaning..

I'm not at all averse to Boincing, but I'm still trying to get a grasp of why I need it and what it will do that I can't do now.

I understand that all classic users will be phased out over time, is it not maybe better for me to wait for the 10.2.8 version?


Thanks again,

pz
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na,

I appreciate your comments and encouragement that the Powerbook can handle a load.

I do, however try my hand at some home video and image editing which really does tax things if I am crunching while trying to do the same. So this all helps me here. thanks.

pz

______________________________________

Does anyone know what the mDNSResponder is? that's what shows in the process listing which says 'nobody' is the user. Status is running and it shows a steady 0.20 % memory.

This thing, what ever it is, is really making me nervous..... not sure why, but it's the only thing in there that's not attributed to either root or myself as administrator.


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Message boards : Number crunching : forgive my intrusion....


 
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